Torveaux

I have seen two different answers to this that both make some sense. 1) Once the 'crossing over' ceremony in May, the boys move to new books and stop working on old rank. 2) When school year ends then they are no longer in the correct grade for the old rank and must move on to the new one. I haven't seen anything definitive, but I will be the Bob White knows exactly where to find the official answer.

Very cool. I wish our state had such a thing. Texas is on our list of possible states to move to, so who knows...?

You said a great deal there Bob. I am in no position to discuss much of it, but I will add 2 cents where I can. What if UCs were 'required' to meet with the bottom x% of the units in their district? Like your house call example, lets have the 'doctors' visit the critically ill in their homes or they may never make it to the hospital (Roundtable). This may take the best of both approaches. I agree 100% that you cannot hold quality unit status for a unit based upon the actions of someone outside that unit. (Our Pack is ineligible for quality unit because the outgoing CM/CC did not turn in the re-charter on time despite the fact that the rest of us did our part to get it prepared on time. Grrr..) I heartily agree on adding Roundtable attendence to QU requirements. It is amazing to me that here we are in March and we have units that every month get called up to receive their Summertime Pack awards for last summer and no one is there to get them. (the running gag is that they are 'summertime only' Packs). Your idea of having at least someone from the unit present takes away excuses about being too busy. Your district has 12 roundtables a year? Ours only has them Sept-May. It seems with the emphasis on Summertime Pack and other Summer Scouting activities, that they would still hold Roundtables....

It seems that your Troop is missing an opportunity to ensure a quality program in order to provide older boys with a power-trip. The point of the BOR is for the adults who are ultimately responsible to get a feel for whether the Troop is delivering on the promise. Waiting until Star is a bit too late. Rather like inspecting a new house after the exterior is completed instead of at each stage from foundation to completion. If you want to give the boys the experience, why not simply have a 'practice' BOR wherein the older boys sit on the PBOR and then give the younger boy a feel for what it is like? This would solve all of the problems at once, plus it helps the younger boys by giving them another chance to put their experience into words. If you really believe that your group is so open that no boy feels threatened or picked on, you are putting your collective heads in the sand to avoid seeing the flaws in your system. You can have it both ways. Do you have the courage to change?

I'm not sure if there is Committee Chair Specific training, but our District has a breakout session for them at Roundtable. I would highly recommend this person attend Roundtable, even if they do not have a separate group for your District. NLE and CLS I would recommend as well.

ScoutNut is spot on here. We are doing what we can to help our Cubs earn it for 2005. As a Pack we have identified about 4 camping opportunities (some Day, some Resident) so boys can attend as a Pack. We have also structured at least 2 Pack events per summer month so boys can earn the Summertime Pack award (an 'elective' toward the award). There is more information available here: http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/resources/13-228/

Our COR is the Principal of the school that charters us. He has no kids even near Scouting age, so we don't have your issue. He also keeps a very low profile. He will sign off and is helpful if asked, but he takes a decidedly hands-off approach (which I think is appropriate). Maybe you could go (way) out of your way and drive over to the COR's house documents (and pen) in hand for him to sign. Good luck.

"If that's not promoting, I don't know what is." Putting in a cell tower is not the same as promoting the idea of Scouts taking the phones to camp. As mentioned earlier, the phones CAN be a great safety device, but it does not follow that adding a tower is related to having Scouts carry phones. Having better reception helps the camp staff and leadership provide a safer environment. It can also provide an improved method for emergency contacts with the adult leadership of each Troop in case of a family emergency. If the contact stays through the adult leadership, the boys are more easily weaned off of the apron strings (and vice versa).

I think I had better clear up a misconception here. While the Webelos rank requirements are mostly signed off by the WDL, that is NOT the case with Belt Loops. According to the Academics and Sports Program guide, page 1. "Each Tiger Cub, Cub Scout and Webelos Scout will be presented with the appropriate recognition item for completing the requirements, whether he does so as an individual Scout, with his family, with his den or pack, or in his school or community." The book also addresses (to a degree) who should bear the cost. "Packs should have a clear policy in place to determine whether the pack or the boy's family will be responsible for the cost of awards that are earned more than once." I read that as saying the Pack will certainly pay for the 1st instance of each beltloop and the 2nd instance is subject to pack policies. The only other caveat for Webelos is that some of their Activity Badge requirements involve completing an A&S belt loop or pin. In these cases it is important that the boy earn the loop or pin while a Webelos Scout. It is ultimately the WDL's responsibility to sign off on the loop or pin as it applies to the Webelos Activity Badges.

Sorry, the bad wording was mine, I was being lazy. The emphasis I was trying to convey was that the camp prohibits certain items to Scouts, but not necessarily in general. The expectation is that the adults will have access to emergency devices such as cell phones. Here is the wording as written in the Camp's Leader guide. "Prohibited Items - for health and safety reasons the following items are prohibited at camp: - Fireworks, Firecrackers, smoke bombs, etc. - Firearms and ammunition (except as provided by the camp) - Sheath knives - Pets - Aerosol cans - Any other item that could be deemed to jeopardize the safety of Scouts and others. - Scouts are not allowed to have the following items in camp: Radios, CD Players, video games, cell phones, beepers, scanners, etc." Also later there is a statement specifically about music. "Any complaints of inappropriate music being played in camp will result in the confiscation of the music (CDs/Tapes, etc.) and audio instruments for the remainder of the week."

Are you asking for bare minimums under Youth Protection or recommended coverage? The way I understand it, technically you can have one trained leader at a Den Meeting but you must never be alone with a boy other than your son/ward. Always better to have two-deep. You may want to get Youth Protection Trained or review the information if you are already trained. It is available online and only takes 3-40 minutes maximum to go through.

A hearty AMEN to that. I don't even know if I have a solid opinion on whether they should be banned or by whom. In general I figure that the whole point of camping is to get away from the 'hustle and bustle' and get closer to God (or nature if you prefer). A week or so without video games or cell phones would make sense to me. Ultimately, I would like to see the SPL and the PLC make the call for the troop and have them make the tough call rather than the popular one. I would suggest that the rule be that cell phones can come along, but they are only to be turned on in an emergency. Any non-emergency use of the cell phone would lead to some form of punishment up to an including expulsion from camp. (though I am sure the boys can come up with some good alternatives) On a side note: We live in a hilly region of Wisconsin and even though it is a city, our reception is intermittent at best unless we are on the highway.

Well, I checked with our CC and he is (as I expected) already BALOO trained. He is considering going to the OWL training (sorry, but our Council forms all call it OWL, maybe they are running a pilot program?). Scoutnut, your answer leads to another question. Our Council has a Family Camporee (4 days, 3 nights) at the Boy Scout Camp. Scouts from Tiger through Venturers are all invited. Families can camp together or with a unit. Two of us are registered with some of our children. (both trained leaders) Another leader has asked if we could take his son (Webelos II) as he is unable to go due to work schedule. If I understand the rules correctly, and I am not sure that I do, he could go along as long as he shares a tent with one of the other boys. I thought I heard somewhere that Cub Scouts could not camp without a parent. Is that true? Does it include Webelos? I don't want them to register if they cannot go, but I would like to be able to have any boy that wants to camp get that opportunity. Our current arrangement has 3 kids (2 scouts) and 2 leaders. Thanks again, T

In our case, the policy is one of the Council Camp, not any troop. Scouts are specifically prohibited from having most electronics, including cell phones.

Well the horse doesn't mind. LOL. nldscout. In my legal opinion (I have legal training, but I am not a member of the BAR), you are wrong and here is why. When an SM, or anyone else confiscates a banned item (safety related or not) he or she is not taking it, it must be given. Essentially, the SM is asking the boy to turn it over. If the boy refuses, the SM has other alternatives (a Scout is Obedient, right?) such as sending him home. When you sign up for camp, you agree to follow the rules. If the SM is sneaking in and taking things, that is a different story. note: some states may have obscure legal precedent that would change this, but not likely.

Thanks for the info. I don't know that I was very clear on the BALOO thing. Our incoming Cubmaster is going to the same training (he will also be the Bear DL). I believe our CC has already had it. (he has WB, Eagle, OA, U of Scouting, etc.) Does it need to be renewed? If we have Webelos-only camping do I need BALOO, OWL, or both? I know we need a BALOO-trained leader for Pack Family Camping, but I was unsure of whether that meant any camping involving Pack members. As for being around...my younger son starts Tigers the summer after my Bear cub crosses to Boy Scouts. I will stay with the Pack for him as well. It seems like a better use of the training I will have by then. I can then make a slower transition into helping the Boy Scouts (maybe a MB counselor or something). Our CO has no Troop, but most of the boys cross into our sister parish's troop. They are well-represented at Roundtable and I hear good things about them. I doubt they are desperate for my help (especially compared to the Pack). The Pack should be on good footing by then. The CM, CC, Wolf DL and myself all have boys starting Tigers that year. In all, 8 boys that age (4 right now) have siblings in our Pack. Part of my concern is not crossing the CM. He seemed a bit irked that I had even talked to the training guy at Roundtable (the CM's job makes Roundtable nearly impossible for him to attend). I guess I view my training as my responsibility, I'm not sure if he just would rather have someone else along at BALOO, or if he just wants to call the shots, or some other motivation. ...you can start fires with belly-button lint? LOL.

OK, I'll play. (note, this is for fun, not an endorsement of a policy one way or the other) 10. The Council may make changes to the uniform. 9. The District may make changes to the uniform. 8. The Den may make changes to the uniform. 7. The Parents may make changes to the uniform. 6. The Cub Scouts may make changes to the uniform. 5. The Pack may authorize modified standards of wearing the existing uniform. 4. The Pack may substitute similar items in lieu of individual uniform pieces without making changes to same. 3. The Pack may authorize an alternate uniform. 2. The Pack may create its own uniform. 1. The Pack has no authority to enforce the uniform rules anyway. Fscouter, "we all know what is right". If that were true we would not be having this discussion. Many of us believe the "right" thing to do is to have a rational policy that encourages uniform use without authoritarian mandates that are unenforcable. Your statement suggests that you know best and we are all wrong. Since we do not all share your view, it cannot be correct. (absolutism is great, ain't it?)

I have a question about the differences between BALOO and OWL (Outdoor Webelos Leader) training. Next month our Council is having both courses offered at the same time in the same place. I am currently registered for the BALOO training, but I am the incoming Webelos I leader for our Pack. (as well as incoming Asst. Cubmaster) One of our District Training staff suggested that I take OWL rather than BALOO. Our incoming Cubmaster wants me to take BALOO (he is registered for the same class). I don't know that I have enough information to have an opinion. Initially, I thought BALOO was a pre-requisite for OWL, but that does not appear to be the case. Any advise would be appreciated.

"I am a scout leader in the Central Region, this is my 37th or so year in scouting. I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Explorer. I have been a Webelos leader, Cub Master, Pack Committee Member, Scoutmaster Asssistant scoutmaster, District Commissioner, Asst. Council Commissioner, Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner, District Training Chair, chaired several camporees, Dean of Commissioners College, 4 Wood Badge staffings, I train at local, area and national levels. I have been a troop leader at a National Jamboree and my Star Scoout son and I will be on National Staff at the upcoming one." If this wasn't Scouting, people might think you couldn't hold a job. Thanks for all you do. You are a wealth of knowledge even when we do not always agree.

Please do not misunderstand here. I had no intention of tweaking Mr. White nor calling him out in any way. I highly respect his knowledge of all things Scouting and I hope he continues to share this knowledge in this forum. My contention is solely with the way the rules are written. In some ways they are very explicit, in other ways they can be manipulated to read many things into them. I think a better procedure would be to require the uniform shirt and neckerchief. Those who cannot afford a shirt will have a shirt provided for them. Afterall, to those unfamiliar with the 'rules' the shirt makes the scout (including all of its regalia). I do think the whole uniform looks sharp and highly encourage wearing the whole thing. [My boy has the whole set other than the official pants. I think it is simply moronic to buy a new pair of Cub Scout pants every 4-6 months due to growth or damage, especially in our case given the fact that navy blue pants are required for the school uniform and sell for about $8. (about 1/4 the cost of official pants) To any but the most experienced eye the school pants look like the official pants. Sorry, but at heart I am cheap, BP would call me thrifty.] In an effort to encourage official uniform wear, quality unit awards could require a certain percentage of fully uniformed boys (again, exceptions need to be made for those unable to afford the uniform). Additionally, getting fully uniformed could be elective material or be used as part of a "Sharp-dressed Scout" award. For the Boy Scouts, maybe the 'entire' uniform can be required for Star and above. Let's do what we can to get as many boys uniformed as possible. A policy that says all or nothing is more likely to get nothing than all.

scoutldr, Bob is rarely wrong on chapter and verse issues. Here it is: Cub Scout Leader book, page 12-11. "Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes to the uniform." Now, a 'jailhouse' lawyer could quibble because they use the word should rather than must. I think the spirit of the rule is as Bob White suggests, however. Conversely, unless one has BSA issued footwear, this rule would preclude wearing 'civilian' footwear with the uniform. Apparently the uniform look is to remain in stocking feet. This also calls into question civilian undergarments, coats (except the red one), and the like. I guess if we are to stick to the letter of the 'law' we are all to wear our uniforms 'commando' sans underwear and shoes/boots. I guess those of us who live in colder climates must just buck up and wear that thin wool jacket. Layering consists of the uniform shirt and the jacket, remember, no unofficial longjohns or sweatshirts are to be added. Since there is no official uniform rainwear, those of you living in rainy climates are expected to just deal with it. Wearing 'civilian' ponchos and the like is not authorized. The alternative, of course, is to only wear the uniform on nice days.

KF5WT, Methinks you need a few courses in law. Misrepresenting the facts will not win a case when the other side has access to the complete document. Suggesting that an item can be used as part of an Emergency Kit is not tantamount to recommending or requiring that such devices be carried as a matter of course. I hope when you get to college you take up law because it sounds like you have a budding interest. In the meantime, try to tone down the theatrics, they will not serve you well as an adult.

Complaining without providing solutions would be wrong. I and others have provided potential solutions and alternatives. That is not complaining, that is providing constructive criticism. You are making assumptions about what some of us have done vis-a-vis contacting National. Just because we individually contact National about our concerns does not mean we should not try to discuss our ideas and see if there are any better ideas or a consensus solution. National is not going to do anything if only one or two of us contact them, especially if we each have different solutions.

I don't think some of you really understand these games. I have a set of about 300 Magic cards (1st "Alpha" edition I bought in 1993). Some of the individual cards I have are selling for $70 or more on ebay. There are other, more powerful, cards that commonly sell for hundreds, if not a thousand dollars. While it is all well and good for us to expect boys to be responsible, it is also more expected that adults are responsible, especially for preventing the preventable. There is simply no good reason to have this type of card at camp. Rather than focus on whether or not the cards detract from the camp experience, how about evaluating things based upon what they add. Traditional card games are good for reinforcing math skills and such. The 'strategy' for Magic is to have enough money to build a good deck and have enough luck to keep it intact. Obviously, I don't have a problem personally with the cards, but I could understand how some people would see the occult in them. It is more than the wishes of the CO, though they are important. What about the wishes of parents not wanting their boys exposed to the supposed occult influences. Again, unless something adds to the camping experience, it detracts from it. Boys without their own deck cannot really play. The games are usually played for cards (rather like racing for pink slips given the values). This excludes some boys from the fun. It that really what we want? I liked the idea of getting the PLC involved to make the call, but I would rather see it addressed in more general terms rather than singling out certain objects. High value items have no place in camp (or school) especially if they are easily concealed. Teach the boys to pack light and cheap. The Troop can have a few decks of standard playing cards (or other games) with the Troop equipment and that eliminates the need for boys to pack along any other cards.

Ja, I did not know that the German kids liked the Americanized version better. Here in Wisconsin there is a large percentage of German and other European immigrants. We are fortunate enough to have quite a few meat markets that make some 'old world' sausages like Bratwurst, Bockwurst, Knockwurst and so on. The kids may like the stuff that tastes like Bologna, but around here it is all about the 'brats'. I knew about the spicier Frankfurter, but I was generalizing. It just struck me as funny to see in writing. Enjoy the cuisine, I am jealous!