Torveaux

FScouter: "the uniform has not changed" Um, yes it has changed. The uniform that is worn now is not exactly the same as the uniform of 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, or 70s. It has not changed appreciably recently, and that is a travesty. I am not talking about dropping uniform requirements or making t-shirts and blue jeans the 'uniform'. I am talking about measured changes within parameters to better serve the Scouts and their families. This isn't about some form of protest wherein we discard the uniform. This is a discussion about what would be better for the BSA, to make the minor changes and retain and recruit more boys, or to retain an impractical uniform element because it is what some of the 'old-timers' are used to? I am certainly no radical extremist on this issue or many others, but if you cannot see the need for a modification, you are likely not really evaluating the problem intelletually, but are acting on emotion. What exactly is the Scouting purpose for these particular pants? Not the idea of a uniform pant, but these 80s-designed monstrosities. There is no valid reason to cling to these pants as an item. I highly value the idea of a uniform pant. But I also see there is a problem and I would be doing Scouting and my children a disservice if I did not do what I can to change a minor flaw. What you are suggesting "I don't change it because I don't like it" does not hold water at all. If boys are being abused, but that is the way it has always been done, should we do nothing, because "I don't change it because I don't like it." How many Scouts do we have to lose or alienate because of these pants before it rises above petty vanity to you? Are the boys who leave do to the pants not worthy of the program? I would argue that they need the program more than those who can afford them.

Warning: Make sure the computer you use is connected to a printer in some fashion. I was not and printed to file, but cannot get the files to print (USB printer issue). No big deal to take it again, just a heads up.

http://www.nccs-bsa.org/images/GTAPatch.jpg This shows how the rockers go, but I couldn't find anything specifically saying where the patch is to be worn.

FScouter, You nailed it. It isn't the uniform, but perhaps it should be. Most of us want to be in uniform and/or have our kids in uniform. If a simple solution like allowing olive dockers for indoor events or some other reasonable accomodation can be made, why not make it part of the uniform code? While it may not "be" the uniform, perhaps it should be. Easy solution to a thorny problem. Glad you thought of it. It seems that some people think that any change to the uniform is tantamount to heresy. I have daughter that is a Brownie and yes, the GS uniform has become a joke, but so has the whole program. I wish we could have a Cub Scouts for Girls program (not girls in Cubs, but their own program), but we don't so we manage as we can. I have no desire whatsoever for the Cub/Boy Scout uniforms to go the way of the Girl Scouts. That does not mean that change is bad, it just means that we must make measured, rational decisions on the uniform itself. This is a minor problem with a rational solution. It does not take a major overhaul of the uniform to simply have national set slightly broader boundaries. If the vendors had to compete for the contract, it would help the price issue. If there are options to purchase within a spectrum for the pants, rather than one cut fits all, it would allow the free-market (now there's an American concept) to function. We want to teach our boys to be leaders, part of leadership is understanding how to embrace change. I see a great deal of resistance to even minor modifications. That seems odd given the much larger changes made over the past 95 years of Scouting.

Thanks. What version of the book? Did they ever complete a new version that matches up with the newer Tiger/Wolf/Bear books? The version I was looking at was from '98 or '99. Any info would be helpful as I will be moving up with my boys from Bears to Webelos I this Spring. I am trying to plan ahead and since there are so many things that can be worked on, I figured to use what remains of this year to work on those things that are not for repeating next year.

Sorry to see you go. It seems that if more people with useful ideas and opinions decide to run away from the problem rather than to be part of the solution, nothing will ever get better. I see the same thing with so many that see a bad Pack and instantly start looking for a new one. Sometimes that is the only remaining answer, but it should never be the first or even second solution. If you are personally offended by certain posters, I think you can exclude them. I just skip over that stuff and look for things I can either use myself or that I feel I can contribute to help others. Those of us who have less experience with Scouting really need a variety of opinions. Please don't take yours away because of the actions of some.

Interesting theory. I think that may be the case for a few people, but the fact remains that the uniform (specifically the pants) have not been practical for many years (since the 80s, I believe). I have no problem paying for pants that are useful and have value. It is one thing to hold the concept of wearing a uniform dear. I certainly do. However, the particulars of this uniform make it impossible to get behind. Fix the pants issue (style, cut, color, cost) and you will solve 75% of the issues most people have with the uniform. Cost will always be an issue for some, but value is more important.

OGE, I think there are some that view the uniform that way, but I would venture to guess that the vast majority of complaints are not about the uniform as a uniform, but the cut, cost, and quality of the existing uniform. What if we had National set basic guidelines like the color of the pants will be Blue #abc for Cub Scout pants and shorts and Green #xyz for Boy Scout pants and shirts. (or something to that effect). Every 10? years or so they have a competition among interested companies capable of producing the uniforms in quantity, to design and bid out for the Scout contract. Because the color will not change, Scouts would be free to continue to wear the 'old' pants as they wish. The new production would be of the cut, fabric and such that 'wins' the contract for the next 10 years. Given a competitive bidding process coupled with a quality expectation, we would get a better product, for a lower cost AND it would encourage, rather than discourage wearing the entire uniform. On a side note, I frankly think the leadership should be wearing Dockers in either Olive or Navy (Scouts or Cubs) for most non-camp functions. Visually the look is better and it does not look less 'uniform' if we all wear readily available clothing.

I must echo the thoughts of Trevorum here. I was only a Scout myself for one year. The two merit badges I completed (we had skill awards back then too) were Camping and Wilderness Survival. I think rather than looking at which ones would be easiest, we should think about which ones you would want every Scout in your Troop to get. Camping, First Aid, Swimming, Citizenship all sound like a good start. Besides, if you burn through all of the easy ones, then later it can feel like hitting a wall. I liken this idea to taking all of the 'easy' courses in college your freshman year and then loading up with the tough ones at then end. Don't most of us do it the other way around?

What a great opportunity! Interpreter strips anyone? I do not speak Spanish, but my wife does. I use her when needed to help out in those instances. It seems that if you have more than one or two bi-lingual parents/leaders, it is more a matter of finding simple accomodation. I agree with SemperP. that there are a ton of things that can be done without strong language skills, much less a minor problem like translation. It may be difficult for them to be Den Leaders or such unless the boys all speak Spanish, but nearly any other job (including Cubmaster) would simply need occasional translations. Good luck.

Is the only form of recognition the actual belt loop? I think most of my boys (Bears) would be happy to have the verbal recognition at the Pack meeting and the extra belt loop would not be such a big deal. The whole purpose of the Academics and Sports program was supposed to be an effort to broaden the boys, right? Spending too much time repeating the belt loops seems a bit counter-productive. There are not that many that need to be repeated for Webelos anyway.

Water, in NJ, in April? I guess it gets a lot warmer there than it does here in April. Sounds like anarchist and Scoutnut had some good ideas. We have Baloo in mid-April, too. It must be a target time or something. Good luck.

I am trying to get some 'gifts' made for my Bears as they cross to Webelos. What I am thinking is that I can have a small Patch Blanket made that is appropriate for our kids. They are all new to Scouts and do not have existing vests or blankets for their patches. Rather than the large red blanket available from Supply, I thought a smaller, Blue Blanket with the Webelos or Cub Scout logo sewn on and their name embroidered on the blanket would be cool. Plus, I think I can have them made much cheaper than the red ones. Here is my problem. I am having trouble finding a large patch with either the blue Webelos logo or the fleur de lis or the Cub Scout logo. By large I mean 4-6 inches high. I would need them by May. Any suggestions about where to go about looking for something like this or a reasonable alternative? Thanks, T

We do many things wrong in our Pack, but one thing we do right IMHO is that when the boys cross over each year, they get the new book/neckerchief on the Pack. The popcorn sales alone more than cover the expense, besides, it is a great way to encourage boys to renew their membership. I would have to agree about the common bond. small patches are not the same as the neckerchief. It is a highly visible sign that sets them apart. I agree about the hats, though. I think the hat should be a plain blue and gold hat with either a universal cub symbol or a pin/patch that could go on the hat for each year. For that matter, this could be the place for a den mascot ala the patrol symbols that the Boys have. That way, the Packs with multiple Dens per grade could easily Identify their Bears, for example, by the neckerchief, and the individual dens would stand out by their Den patch (which could be the same from Tigers through Webelos). We are generally happy if the boys have a shirt and the awards get put on in a timely manner. Hat usage goes progressively down as they get older. I think one boy in the Pack actually owns official Cub Scout pants. It seems that your primary argument/concern, john, is the high cost. Until HQ gets the costs down, use your fundraising ability to offset the cost for your kids. That way you get the best of both worlds. Good luck.

Two things: A scientific law is a proven entity. A theory is just that, a theory, even when a genius thinks of it. The theory of relativity does not subtract from my premise that the universe could not exist without a supernatural power (God) because its very creation would violate the known laws of physics. (hence the term SUPERnatural).

purcelce I guess I was trying to say that drinking or not, I think that behavior is inappropriate when representing Scouting at a public event. This was not a purely Scouting event, such as a camp or OA meeting, or roundtable. (wherein I think we all get a little silly at times) This was a game in which Scouting was being recognized, but the general public was there. There is a huge difference between being a fan and being obnoxious. If this had been a non-Scouting event and he was acting like that around my son while we were trying to watch a game, I would have spoken to him. The fact that we were both in uniform stopped me. (The guy was from a Pack in our District and I have never seen him at Roundtable, nor was he wearing a Trained patch, so I don't think he goes much. I haven't missed a Roundtable since I became involved and since he and I both are Bear DLs, I would have seen him.) I don't know how you behave in public, so I cannot compare the two, but I hope you don't embarrass yourself or Scouting like this guy did. Eamonn, Thanks. I think you are right. I am not as much upset as I am embarrassed and disappointed. I guess I hold all Scouters to a bit higher level of expectation than I do for the general public, but I would not have liked this behavior out of anyone. I appreciate the opportunity to get the opinion of other Scouters as this is still new to me.

I just got back from a sporting event. It was 'Scout Day' for the minor league team in the area and there were boy and girl scouts of all varieties about. Our Pack had about 50% participation, despite the weather, so all and all I was pleased. My problem was with a DL from another Pack that was sitting nearby (in uniform). He was wearing a soccer ball hat on his head and was blowing horns and basically raising a ruckus. I don't know if he had been drinking and while that is bad, it is not really the crux of my question. He was acting as if he had been out pounding down beers before the game. He was 'that obnoxious guy' that many people hate to see at any ball game. I was embarassed by his behavior. Am I just being too picky? What should I have done, if anything?(This message has been edited by Torveaux)

jw is right. Only Alaska and Hawaii had not been admitted by that time. The stars are laid out 8 across and 6 deep. We used this in a Den Meeting as a fun project. The boys really liked it and we got to talk about the flag in detail.

The Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy (otherwise called Law of Conservation of Mass) states that matter can be created nor destroyed. What you see is simply mass changing form. I am no physicist either, but this is a basic scientific law taught even at the HS and Middle-school levels. I think a good scientist would take a page out of Newton's book. He was a religious man, but he also understood that science could not really explain the supernatural, nor could it disprove it. Better to focus on what we can know, than to waste energy trying to suggest that anything in science disproves God.

I think the CC needs to take charge. The CM works for the CC/committee, not the other way around. If the CM is not doing a good job, they can give the job to someone else. (if I am reading my Leader Book correctly)

What a long thread.... One of my problems with most athiests I have encountered is that they seem to believe that they are de facto more intelligent than anyone who still clings to what they see as primitive belief in a higher power. This concept of self-actualization actually places the athiest in the position of really believing in themselves as having transcended God. When those deemed less intelligent actually dare to challenge the intellectual superiority of the athiest mind, the result is very predictable. Discourse turns to name-calling and diatribe, followed by the tried-and-true actions of a five-year-old wherein the ball is picked up and the athiest goes home feeling intellectually superior, yet emotionally hollow. As for the semantics of a religious organization. It is easy to twist words for one's benefit. What most people really know is that the Boy Scouts are a religiously principled organization that is not rooted in any one religion. That can make the BSA simultaneously a religious organization and a non-religious organization depending upon whether one means religious in the organized religious sense or religious in the 'principled belief in a higher power' sense. Arguments such as mhager's and Merly_LeRoy's are specious and intended not to enlighten or broaden one's understanding, but to lash out at something they either do not understand, or have embittered themselves against. Fortunately for them both, God is eternally patient. Many who claimed atheism during their middle years returned to God as they approached their final rest. mhager spent his first post trying to convince himself (and us) that he was still living up to the ideals he professed as he earned his Eagle. What he never understood is that the morals that he has formed were formed in a religious context. His conversion to atheism could not restructure the moral ground upon which Scouting and his family built his adulthood. Any good scientist could never reach the conclusion that there is no higher power. At most they could reach a state of confusion. Since matter can be neither created nor destroyed in our limited understanding of physics, then we could not really exist as the matter which makes us up could never have been created.

SandyD is correct. I have my Leader Book right here. page 34-56 shows the Female Leader Inspection sheet. There is no written direction on male/female scout or leader sheets about tucking in specifically. However, ALL drawings showed tucked in shirts, regardless of which female shirt is shown. I think that the ideo of not tucking in the shirt did not even occur to those who wrote the rules.

Another avenue of help to add to the DE is on the church end of things. Is there a church council or some authority above the pastor. Not to usurp his/her power, but to augment it? Sometimes when a new pastor is hesitant to act, an established church council will have no problem reigning in someone using their facilities. (of course that could involve tricky church politics.) Good luck. Remember that technically the CC is in charge and they should be helping. If you don't have one, I suppose the COR could find you a CC as an ally.

Great! We are shooting for adding Spring recruiting this year. Our feeder school has 15 boys in the current Kindergarten class. 3 of them have older siblings in Scouts. Most of the other 12 are the oldest children, so the parents will be brand spanking new. Of the other 3, one is the soon-to-be CM's boy (he is also the soon-to-be Bear DL). We are thinking about trying to recruit the Tiger DL (or whatever they call the Tiger Leader) before we get to the boys. We usually have about a 50% hit rate on boys in each class joining. Is that normal? The feeder school is a small private school with up to 30 kids per grade. That gives us about 12-17 boys each year as natural targets. We are also considering trying to reach out to other members of the parish that do not send their kids to the school. The difficulty is that we need more leaders. We are building a solid nucleus, but if we get a really good turn out we will need to find more DLs and ADLs. I suppose that is a good problem to have. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Thank you. From what I can tell, the Point, Click, and Go #6 has been changed. That is great. I hadn't check on it for a few months. I would never let her online alone, but I could not even find a place to have the chat. It is too bad because the internet should be able to provide a safe place for kids to share ideas internationally.