Torveaux

Wouldn't such a policy violate the sacred rule against adding requirements? I think in most situations the boy would learn more if he were Den Chief in another Den. The whole picture needs to be taken in when these decisions are made. There is a great deal of potential good and potential bad and only the boots on the ground can really make an informed decision. I say nix the rule and just have a guideline that prefers such placements.

I would echo Trevorum's point with this additional thought... your Pack may have siblings that are better off in the family tent together, so keeping it by family seems to make more sense than by Den. No one else seems to have mentioned the obvious, so I will...someone is BALOO trained, right? I would recommend that you do a 'potluck' style meal. Classic meals such as hotdogs and such tend to go over better with young, first-time campers than stews and more 'experienced' fare.

I don't know that I would use Keynesian economic models to win an argument, but to each his own. I think cost is only one factor in the problems with the uniform. As acco said 'Scouting is a global organization', not merely a US entity. I think you could offer choices. If someone is concerned about buying 'American', they can pay the associated upcharge. I would argue that one of the reasons it makes sense for a company to operate overseas is that some of the US laws do not really do anything to help the environment or labor other than to make lawmakers and activists feel like they are 'doing' something. Do the people who get hung up on the origins of vehicles realize that Chrysler is German company?

Eamonn, I coach a HS rugby team. I wonder why they do not have Youth Rugby as a Belt Loop/Pin option for Cubs. The IRB has a great flag/touch rugby system. I figure if they can have a program for Ultimate Frisbee, why not rugby. That is actually another good idea for Scout Troops for something 'new'. Find a game that is not too common for your area like Rugby or Cricket and give it a go.

Here is my source: http://www.meritbadge.com/info/policy4.htm "The Scout should be neat in appearence and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board." (This message has been edited by Torveaux)

Thanks all. Everything went well. 5 more Cubs have Whittling Chips. No injuries, the vacuum handled the mess. We used cassette tape cases and plastic knives to practice the sharpening process as we did not have enough stones to go around.

"...adding a requirement and that is wrong." The instructions for the BOR are the the Scout should be neat in appearance. Defining 'neat' is not adding to the requirements, it is clarifying them. Subjective terms are like that. We could go round and round about details like does 'neat' mean the pants should be ironed, starched, creased or just pulled out of the hamper. The better definition the Troop gives (ideally this is initially established by the boys themselves) for vague terms, the easier it is for everyone to be on the same page. I guess I get a little frustrated by the tendency on this board for people to spout the 'add or remove' nothing mantra when it does not apply. There is a great deal of difference between defining terms and creating new requirements. Adding would be something like: "The Scout will wash the Scoutmaster's vehicle." to the Citizenship Merit Badge requirements. Again, this is not to say that the board member was correct, but IF the definition of neat in that Troop is no decorative jewelry (or other definition that would prohibit earrings at a BOR), the Scout was wrong. If such a definition did not exist, the board member was wrong. Wearing of jewelry of any kind is both a reflection on the individual AND a reflection on the BSA, his Patrol and his Troop, when the Scout is in uniform.

Thanks for all of the help. In a school? Schools generally frown on knives nowadays. Funny, I remember always having a jacknife with me as a kid (5th or 6th grade up). We never considered using it on anyone, or anything for that matter. They were great for a hopelessly knotted, wet, shoelace. Mostly it was just feeling 'big' having it in my pocket. Unfortunately, outdoors this time of year is not exactly good for manual dexterity. Highs today should be about 40 degrees. I will make sure that we keep it dry until it is all cleaned up. A dropcloth may work? Too bad about the soap. I had already purchased a bulk pack of Ivory. I have the Whittling Chips for immediate recognition, and I bought the Patches as well. Do you think it is best to award the Patch at the Den Meeting or to wait for a Pack Meeting? (Caveat, our next Pack Meeting is Pinewood Derby in ten days.) Also, I have heard conflicting information on wearing the patch (or not). My understanding of Temporary Patches is that they are for wear only if specifically designated for wear (like 75th Anniversary). I have read other places that any Patch, from Pinewood participation to Scout Night at the local bowling alley can go in the Temporary spot. Is there a good spot for the official word?

Nobody "wins". A couple of things are missing. If the Troop had an expectation that the boys would not wear excessive jewelry or some such to a formal review, they need to have informed the Scout and his parents beforehand. Did they? We do not know. Whether or not we agree with earrings is not the question. If the Troop leadership (the boys, right?) decided that for them 'properly groomed' means without decorative jewelry, they can do that. If the Troop did inform the boy and he wore it anyway, I think the onus falls back upon the boy and his family. Again, we do not know. If this was simply 'out of the blue' then it was handled poorly by all parties involved. There is plenty of blame to go around. I didn't read the "A Scout is defiant" part of the law. The 'reviewer' needs to learn a great deal about how to handle things as well. If there was a problem, it should have been handled with tact and understanding especially with a new Scout.

I think the band-aids will work better than popsicle sticks . Sorry, just a little bad humour. What do we do with the sticks?

I am curious sitrep, how would you define a 'mill'?

I got some of the same looks when I coached Jr. Football prior to having children of my own. The good part was that since I didn't have a horse in that race, I didn't get the flack most coaches got for playing their sons in key positions. I agree with the suggestion of trying to get him to help a struggling Troop. While it is always nice to have another resource, sometimes it is better to share for be betterment of Scouting as a whole. On the Girl Scout issue, I must agree with those who say it is an inferior program. I have 2 sons and 2 daughters, the oldest two are a Bear and a Brownie. I often wish that my daughter could be a Cub Scout because the program is much better overall. Unlike some, I have no interest in making Scouts co-ed, that would weaken the program IMHO. I would like to have She-Cubs or something else that would mirror the BSA program as is, with minor modifications to appeal to girls rather than boys. Most of the program would not matter either way. I think mixing genders in the Dens or Troops tends to add another dynamic that is not the best for either gender.

Tomorrow we are having a Den Meeting at my home wherein part of the session will be earning the 'Chip'. One of the parents (an Eagle) will be conducting that training. Any last minute suggestions? We are planning on using the Ivory Soap. How many bars per boy? I really want the boys to have a positive learning experience with this. The opportunity to carry a small knife on selected outings gives the boys a sense of pride and helps them learn to be responsible. I never really understood allowing them to win knives as prizes, giving them the training, and then never allowing them the opportunity to 'use' the skill.

I don't know if this method has a name, but it is what our Pack uses and everyone seems to like it. We have about the same number, maybe a few less in our Pack. The track is run by a local troop that we essentially rent from. It has 6 lanes, nearly 90 ft long. There are electronic timers and some software program that sorts the cars and keeps track of their times. The cool thing is that the cars each race 6 times, once down each lane. It also sorts the heats so the fastest cars (average) race together in each heat. By the last few heats, the races are close and many boys can 'win' a heat. The top finishers really set themselves apart from the pack (sorry). The only thing I would likely do differently is to award a trophy to the 'winner' of each den (we only have one per grade) as well as overall trophies. Sometimes the younger boys place, but most of the top finishers are usually Webelos.

Laurie, You are reading that sheet correctly, but I believe it is out of date. The new inspection sheet in the Leader Book (pg 34-53) has added a few lines. Under the picture of the Webelos Scout Left Pocket with the oval, they have added (TAN SHIRT). It is also spelled out in the Left Pocket description: "Webelos Scouts have the option of wearing the oval-shaped badge by itself on the tan shirt only; or the diamond shaped Webelos patch along with other rank badges on either the tan or blue shirt; or if the Tiger Cub patch was earned, the Webelos diamond-shaped patch may be worn on either the tan or blue shirt by itself and centered on the left pocket."

Well I just got home from Roundtable and if our District is indicative of the average District I would guess that many SMs don't know what is expected / taught because they don't go to Roundtable or at least send a Troop representative.

Since this is a thought experiment and need not reflect our actual views, I'll play devil's advocate. Since Boy Scouts is a boy-led (I hear this a great deal here)group, it seems that there is a conflict of ideals. If it is boy-led, how can we tell them they cannot make such a minor modification to the uniform? The hypothetical did not say that 'unit leadership' was instituting the policy, they merely allowed the boys to lead, right? I think the reality falls somewhere in between. I think there are limits to 'boy-led', but in the end, the National organization may be better served to allow each Troop to choose pants among a set of choices rather than trying to dictate a one-size-fits-all solution. The concept of a uniform is a fundamental Scouting principle. The particular pants are merely an adminstrative detail.

Sure, make me get out the Leader Book... "When a Webelos Scout chooses to wear the oval shaped Webelos badge, other badges of rank and Arrow Points are not included." p. 12-4 "There are two different Webelos Rank badges. The one to be awarded depends on personal preference." p. 12-5 I got it backwards on the tan thing. If they wear the oval badge, it can only be on the tan uniform, they can, however wear the blue badges on the tan uniform. From what this says, the diamond Webelos badge is alive and well. In my son's case, he did not go to 1st grade, so he was never a Tiger, he will have room for the diamond badge. kenk, Your second post is spot-on. If your boys are like my son, they will not want the oval badge because it means removing arrow points and other rank as well. I suspect that some of his den-mates would rather replace their Tiger badge than the whole set along with the arrow points.

fotoscout, The 'new' uniform has been pitched as optional from our Council down. Generally, the idea among our Packs seems to be when the boy outgrows the blue shirt, he buys the tan one. (provided he is a Webelos Scout)Some use it as a way to differentiate between Webelos I and II. New Scouts that come in as Webelos tend to wear the tan.

Who is BSA? Are we not all part of the BSA? Is it not incumbent upon us to voice our concerns to the BSA leadership? I was always taught that you don't complain unless you have a better solution. I think I have provided quite a few options that improve the situation without detracting or diminishing from the uniform method. I guess I do not view the leadership as a veritable Moses that is divinely inspired to bring the BSA commandments down from on high. I think the leadership needs the input of all of us who live the values everyday to express our concerns and to make reasoned and rational decisions without the encumberance of emotional attachment to a 20+ year old pant design.

The diamond-shaped badge is for the blue uniform. The oval badge is for the tan uniform. If the boys wear the tan uniform they are not supposed to wear the previous year's ranks. If you had the blue uniforms and they had earned Tiger rank, they would remove the Tiger rank and replace it with the Webelos diamond.(This message has been edited by Torveaux)

"we have no age limit on Eagle" That may be part of the problem. It is one thing to build men out of boys, it is quite another to call a boy a man. It sounds like the Councils are doing a better job of handling JLTC than the Troops are of making sure that Eagles are leaders, not just MB collectors.

What if BSA's change was to broaden the definition slightly on what constitutes uniform pants? I have not been advocating 'civil disobedience' in terms of the uniform. I think any changes should be made at the National level. Do the Boy Scouts still allow each Troop to have their own headgear choice? I seem to remember that some Troops wore the red beret, others had an overseas cap, some have a ballcap style, etc. Is this approved uniform wear? Are the neckerchiefs not a Troop-level decision? I guess what I am getting at is that at least within certain guidelines it is not without precedent to have some leeway from one unit to the next. I think that outside of the Scouting community, most people identify Scouts by the shirt, not the pants or the socks. I would agree that a complete uniform looks better. I guess that is why I am so adamant that the BSA make such changes. The alternative is fewer boys or fewer uniformed boys or a tendency as we see now for boys and leaders alike to simply ignore the requirement altogether.

I would try to weave some of your local culture into the ceremony. I would guess that if it is done well, it will become a lasting tradition in the troop. You may want to tie-in with the Charter Org (common with Churches and civic groups) to reflect the shared values. If you have some local history that would mesh well with such a ceremony, such as a prominent historical figure or culture, that would be very cool. I am a big fan of making these things high theatre and solemn. Most of their experiences are more raucus fun. Making a few solemn occasions can make them really stand out. Maybe a slow drum beat in the background....the Scoutmaster (or other MC) calls each boy in turn...a statement of desires..."What do you wish of Troop xxx"..."I wish to be inducted into the Troop"..."Why do you wish to be inducted?"..."I want to pursue manhood." (or whatever)"What do you bring to the Troop?"..."I bring an open mind, a willing spirit, and a thirst for knowledge."..."Then welcome to the Troop." This is simply a concept, not a transcript... Or some such

For some people getting the Eagle is a matter of personal pride in a job well-done. For others it is a matter of status. Still others see it as an opportunity. Having Eagle on your college applications is often a positive. Ditto job applications. Some rush through because 'high school is just so full of social engagements'. What I find interesting, in a sad sort of way, is that the program changed ostensibly to retain more boys by removing the modest tenure requirements. There seems to be fairly little objection to that, but suggest a modification in the uniform, even a minor one, and some people thing you called Baden-Powell an unsavory name. Go figure. I would like to see the program expect some leadership and participation at every level before earning rank. I noticed in some of the Summer Camp materials that 1st Class is almost automatic if you go to Summer Camp. My short tenure in Scouting only got me to 2nd Class, but I had to work as part of the unit for 6 months to get there. What some people fail to realize is that part of the value of obtaining Eagle is tarnished when Troops become Eagle mills and seem to exist merely to confer such rank upon boys as quickly as possible. As for the ages, you may have 'some' young mature boys, and 'some' older immature boys, but the numbers represent the exception, not the rule. Very few 13 year-olds really have the capacity for leadership that one would expect to see in someone wearing Eagle rank.