Torveaux

I recommend this course of action.... You are the official CM, right? Do you have an official CC? If not, coordinate with the COR and get your charter information updated so the 'temp' CC becomes the official CC. (ditto any other committee positions) Next, move the meeting place and/or time. If this guy is not on the committee and does not have a child in your program, I see little he can do to force himself into your home for a meeting. Once you have a couple of meetings without him and get your new Pack leadership comfortable with their positions, move your meetings back to the old location and time. Before the first of this set of meetings, talk to the DE about finding this guy a role as a District volunteer. If that will not work, have him be the FOS coordinator or some other position that is not really part of your meetings (to avoid disruptions). It sounds as though he identifies himself with Scouting so much that he cannot let go of the Pack. Perhaps if he is otherwise occupied, he may not be so interested in trying to get into your businesses running a quality unit. I hope whomever is the new CC has enough gumption to control a meeting. I am praying for your success. We are scheduled to have our first 'new' committee meeting this weekend and it should be interesting. The new CM thinks he runs the whole show because the last CM functioned as CC as well. Now we have a highly qualified CC (Eagle with District and higher experience...Philmont, WB, OA, etc.). Both are motivated in the right way, but the CM thinks that everyone answers to him. It may take a few months for them to stake out territory. I am the new AC as well as DL. I just want to have a good program for the kids and avoid the fireworks, if any.

Well said, Eagledad. I discoverd this forum out of a frustration born from learning that the Pack associated with my children's school is not a 'good' Pack. I find many useful bits of information to take us from a bad Pack to a good one. I also learned very quickly which of my opinions were ill-conceived and which were shared by many others. Sure, I let National know, but if we fail to discuss these topics openly and honestly, one person contacting National will mean nothing. It is only when we have a consensus that things will happen. As Eagledad suggested, I would be downright shocked if someone from National did not regularly peruse these boards to learn about the pulse of the organization. If they are not, that is even a large failing than addressing the uniform needs of a diverse group. While I personally think we should strive to wear the whole uniform, I think it borders on moronic to have an all or nothing policy. I realize, however, that if we do not have such a policy, some people will never buy anything but the shirt. So, if we are basically stuck with a policy that requires a 'uniform', we should have a uniform that reflects Scouting tradition AND encompasses technological breakthroughs and trends. Despite Bob's irritation with those of us who dare voice a dissenting opinion, I think he (albiet inadvertently) brought us to the core issue here. Choice. It is very wise to realize that the US is a big country and one uniform does not really meet the needs of Scouts and Scouters in all situations. It also seems that given its location on the body and the placement point for all patches, the shirt is the only item that should be a hard and fast consistent item. However, the shirt has as many options as the pants. (which is not saying much) Just for comparison's sake, I checked out Cabela's website for similar items. 3 different types of 7-pocket shorts and pants are available. Even the most expensive ones are $17 cheaper (shorts) or $11 cheaper (pants). Cabela's is not really know for its low prices either. If you choose the low end fabric you can get two pair of shorts for less than the price of the cheapest BSA shorts. I don't mind paying a small premium to help Scouting and due to the 'special' nature of the design provided that I am getting at least as good of quality merchandise. There is an easy solution for National if they would just take it. Negotiate 3-5 year contracts for supplying outdoor quality pants that fit within color and style guidelines to make them uniform. Until enough people let them know of our concerns, they will do nothing. If we simply buy the pants anyway, why should they change the situation?

"The truth is there are too many variables in environment climate, and purpose to make one uniform to fit every occassion. And the truth is that with millions of people to cloth you cannot design a uniform to meet every possible whine." Good point, Bob White. That is one great reason for them to authorize a fixed color and let the design/material/etc be up to those paying for and wearing them. As long as National sets the parameters it is the uniform. It is not as though the current system has produced a 'uniform' look as there are options available. The key issue here is what those options will be.

That doesn't pass the smell test. Should we hand out Eagle Rank for those who intend to complete it? I realize that the anniversary badge is not as important, but why would you send that message to the kids?

Many hockey skills will work toward the ice skating loop. I had the same problem with Rugby. There is a youth version with touch/flag 'tackling'. If they have Flag Football, why not other sports?

Let me get this straight...you are going to show Germans about hotdogs? Why do you suppose they are called Frankfurters? My dad was stationed at Wiesbaden when I was born. It worked out well given the family heritage is German as well. It is great to hear you are doing joint 'ops' with the locals. A big thanks to you military families!!

John in KC, The statute does not give BSA the authority to wear "a" distinctive uniform. What is does is give the BSA the authority to wear a uniform that approximates a military uniform. Any group can wear a distinctive uniform if they wish, it is part of your Constitutional rights to free association and freedom of expression. The limit is in place to prevent 'impersonating' military individuals. The BSA is simply given a waiver of sorts by this part of the code to account for the fact that the BSA uniform appears to be similar to a military uniform (especially to those who are not well-versed in such things) Also, the code does not prohibit wearing components of a military uniform unless they are "distinctive". This has been held to be things like the rank insignia and US emblems on the uniform. The only thing really preventing anyone from using the Marine uniform shirt rather than an official BSA shirt is that it is not exactly the same and would not be a BSA uniform. Torribug has it right. The BSA article is inferior in quality and higher in price. Personally, I could care less if it is made here or elsewhere (though there are some countries that I prefer to boycott). Since that point has already been resolved, I digress. Word of warning, not all US military uniform items are made here. I remember that when the Army switched to the new Berets for everyone policy, they were made in China. Any rumors that this had anything to do with the Chinese support for the Clinton candidacy were never proven.

Ask him.

Perhaps you should change your name to OldGreyOwl. Your wisdom is showing. Huzzah!

Appeals court decisions are not final, so this is still pending. The real problem is that for discrimination to exist, other organizations with similar goals would have to be excluded. Thus, the district allows Cubs to recruit, but not Atheist Campers of America. It would be likely for the Oregon Supreme Court to either reverse the decision completely or simply narrow the decision to apply to active listening (ie: an auditorium) versus passive listening as this case suggests. I think parents like this are unreasonable in the extreme. If an LDS organization (we're Catholic) sent recruiters to my kids' school, I would have no problem explaining to my kids the difference and why they would not be eligible to join. Sometimes kids need to have an opportunity to see their faith (or non-belief) in action. To obstruct the opportunity for others to hear the message from the group is simply petty and teaches the child to be a 'victim'.

"Religious rights of atheists" - rather oxymoronic no? The problem here is that the ACLU's cases are based solely on a misinterpretation of the Constitution. The supporting documents make it quite clear that the establishment clause did not mean government could not acknowledge religion, nor did it mean that government could not in any way be construed as assisting religious organizations. It meant, and still means, quite clearly that government shall not establish a religion. That has a meaning as well. Words mean things. We will not have a "Church of America" ala the "Church of England". More importantly, it is incumbent upon the government to stay out of the 'free exercise' (meaning the practices) of religion. The entire ACLU position rests firmly on the hope that we will continue to have judges that dictate their opinions rather than read the actual Constitution and its supporting documents. The thing I really do not understand is the bitterness of people excluded from a private organization going out of their way to harrass that organization for the right to join it. That is rather like the characters that stalk a woman who will not go out with them in the hopes that she will. Then when they force her into the relationship, they wonder why she cries. Clearly the position of the BSA is antithetical to many people. Great! Start your own organization that is all inclusive and meets your personal whims. That is what is great about America, you are free to organize yourself. "Gee, I want to join a group of people that view me as morally bankrupt. If they wont let me join, I'll get the court to make them love me." Pitiful.

I guess you all camp in places that are spread out a great deal more than I am used to (or your Packs are huge). There is no reason that you cannot have the family tents together, yet still have them all reasonably close to each other. There is no Den Camping for Cubs, only for Webelos and up. If your areas are that far apart, camping by Den would not be appropriate. The families that don't camp will not go along anyway. When I say potluck, I mean maybe mom or dad sends along a side to pass that is kept in the cooler until its time to eat. Cubs are not high adventure camping where they hike in 15 miles before setting up camp. The camp 'cooking' is essentially toasting hotdogs and marshmallows. If you are doing much beyond that with Cubs, you are pushing too hard to make them Boy Scouts before their time. Webelos are a different story. You will either have Den Leaders that are die-hard campers that have no problem with doing it all for the whole den, or you will lose Den Leaders that don't appreciate being turned into something that Den Leaders are not expected to be (again, excepting Webelos).

We follow the Program Helps, especially the part on page 2? "Using Cub Scout Program Helps" There is a whole section on Adapting Plans including this statement: "Dens and Packs with different schedules can adapt ideas in Cub Scout Program Helps to fit their situations." In short, the Program Helps do not pretend to be some sort of rigid document for all Packs and Dens to follow. They are there to help provide inspiration and reduce some of the stress for people unaccustomed to working with youth or with running meetings. Our Pack has done a poor job of planning in the past, but we are moving in the right direction. The Pack will have a theme for each month in 2005-06, but they may or may not match up with the National themes. Frankly, I have not seen the 05-06 Helps are they out? It really matters a great deal in that we are planning now for next 'season'. As for "making rank is the parent's responsibility..." That doesn't quite fit my understanding. Ultimately it is the boy's responsibility. Some of the achievements are clearly den specific and not really achievable with only the family. Others are clearly family structured and not achievable in the den. We try to make sure that every den meeting gives boys opportunities to do those things that are better done as a den (Whittling Chip for example). Not that they are impossible with the family, but in our situation not every family has a full set of tools, etc.

I don't think I would equate asking "What was your favorite part..." to asking about a specific particulars. If the merit badge in question was earned in a manner other than sitting in a lecture hall waiting to get 'signed off', then a boy should be able to at least indicate a portion of the requirements. My 8 year old could easily do that for any his Bear requirements, (as could his peers) so I would expect an 11-14 year old Star Scout to be able to come up with something memorable about a merit badge. This is not like retesting, this is about seeing if the program is working. I am worried about the program in general as I read things like boys earning merit badges for attending a lecture. This type of non-performance does the opposite of what I see as the ideals of Scouting.

I studied this in depth due to my son's issues. (his b-day is in October with a Sept 1 cutoff after Kindergarten they skipped him over 1st grade making him unable to be a Tiger cub.) The rules are in place with both grade or age requirements in part so that boys who are held back in school or who start school later than average can still move ahead to Boy Scouts when they reach age 11. We have 2 boys in our Den (Bears) that are already 10 due to being held back. Next Spring as Webelos Is, they would be eligible to join Boy Scouts even if they don't complete any Webelos requirements (not to mention the AOL.) Conversely, my boy will not turn 10 until October of his Web II year. We have another boy who is young (just made the cutoff) too. I think the temptation is always to keep the boy with his friends. Initially, I tried to argue to let my son stay with his old friends as a Tiger. Reality sets in later when the other boys move up to a different school (or vice versa) and your boy is suddenly isolated from his friends. Once Jr. High, hormones, and girls become a factor, it is will not be cool to hang out with a kid in a lower grade, even if he is the same 'age'.

I think you may have missed the point. He cannot earn the AOL until he has been done with 4th grade for 6 months. That means November (if school is out in May) or December (if June.) That is only a month or two earlier than regular cross-over (February). If he has not earned the AOL, he would not be eligible to crossover until he completed 5th grade OR turned 11. I guess at the end of the day, it does not really matter that you want him to go early or that others may agree with you. To be eligible to register as a Boy Scout, one of those three requirements must be met. I guess if you want to go in Nov/Dec rather than waiting until Feb, that is his (your) option, but I think that to do so would be self-serving. The other boys could use his example, whether leadership is formal or not. To bail out on the Pack does not seem to fit the ideals of Scouting in general. "The boy helps the Pack go."

It is not so much about the age as it is about the experience. I grew up in South Dakota where the driving age was 14 (sunrise to sunset). By 16, most of the kids had acquired a healthy appreciation for driving more safely. My younger brother opted to wait until he was 17 (ancient by local standards). He still went through the same skill building delay that all new drivers go through. I think rather than arbitrary age limits, the maturity, intellect, and ability of the driver should be of paramount importance. I would rather see a comprehensive driving test done in a simulator. That way you can put the driver in a host of situations and see how they react without endangering lives. Irresponsibility is not strictly an age thing. If it was, we would have strict rules allowing only those 35-45 to drive. Everyone else is either too young, or too old.

Good observations. I have attended every roundtable this year (except the one that was snowed out!) and I have no idea who anyone is above the DE level. I could find out easy enough, but I haven't needed that info yet. Is there an exit interview process or some follow up on families that do not re-register from year-to-year? I think it would be imperative to determine why individuals are leaving. Some may be convinced to return, others may simply provide insight to avoid future losses. I also have some 'out-there' ideas that may help (at least at the Cub level). What if the Council/National would create Cub leagues for the basic area sports? We seem to lose a bunch of interest from some kids that participate in sports because they have too many conflicts with the Pack/Den meetings. If each Pack had a soccer team, the boys could play in a league that integrated Scouting values to the sports and did not detract from the boy's chance to attend other Scouting events. I'll admit that this idea just popped into my head, so I have not begun to analyze potential problems, but conflicts and lack of 'coolness' seem to be our biggest obstacles (unscientific survey).

Our Pack has traditionally (I have no idea why) distributed all rank and arrow point awards at the Blue and Gold in May. (another irritant) As Bear Den Leader and Asst. Cubmaster-in-waiting, I think it is a travesty for the Pack to withhold recognition for this long. Most of the Wolves, a third of the Bears and most of the Tigers have already finished their rank requirements. I quietly organized a rank ceremony and was going to just add it to the next Pack Meeting (next week). Our Cubmaster is leaving (In fact we missed our January re-charter date that officially replaced him because he was too busy to get it done. ) and the new Cubmaster is hesitant to make any changes to 'this year' because he doesn't want to step on toes. I figure that this is fundamentally about the boys and I couldn't care less about the ego of a grown man. My fear is that we are missing a great opportunity to retain our boys. It is not that we will lose them if we don't have the ceremony until May, but we have a better chance of retaining them (and recruiting new boys) if we act quickly (especially before Spring Recruiting). What I really need, is some good advice on how to push this. I wanted to give at least my Bears their badges, but the card needs the Cubmaster signature. Are there some good references to point to that show that rank cannot or at least should not be withheld? How can I convince these men that the boys come first?

Why would you need/want a Den Chief for Tigers? With the adult partner and the focus on the adult/child relationship, perhaps the SM was really thinking that working with Webelos, Bears, or Wolves would be more appropriate use of a Den Chief.

We are in the process of establishing a summer program as well. I have discovered that the local Council office has many fliers and such from local minor and major league sports teams that have special 'Scout' days in the summer. Discounts on admission and a ready-made environment for Cubbing fun. We are also really trying to get everyone to a Cub camp. It not only is fun, but the kids get a headstart on their new rank. (much easier to find time for things in summer than during school) We are also planning hikes in local wildlife areas/parks; participate in a parade; conservation projects; etc. As your DE suggested, we are also adding a Spring recruiting effort to get new Tigers a chance to join the fun. Traditionally, they have waited until school starts and by the time the Tigers get up and running it is October. We have discovered that 'if you build it, they will come'. Our problems were overcoming a 'reputation' of lack of fun. Families are looking for a wholesome, fun, growth-oriented experience for their kids. Good luck!

Interesting. Our Pack has used a May Blue and Gold and we are changing it back to February. Rank advancement should be recognized as it happens, not simply at Blue and Gold. We find that having the later date just makes procrastinators out of more parents/kids. The Blue and Gold can then focus on Webelos crossing over and our May Pack meeting can cross over all of the other Cubs to the next level. At the same time we are implementing a Summertime program where none has existed. I expected Scouting to build leaders, I just did not expect it would be me! Like with many things in life, it seems the more you put in, the more you get out. I would recommend having a 'Den' program, but invite everyone from the Pack. If only your den shows up, you still provided the opportunity. You may discover others who want more as well.

One other thing to consider: those 'friends' will be in a different class. The scouting experience may be a good way for him to get to know the 'new' friends in the new grade. Part of the decision may rest upon when he becomes 8. On the inside cover of the new Wolf book it states "You should use this book if you are a boy who has completed the first grade or are 8 years old." There are many things your boy could do to help the new Tigers with learning about Scouting while completing new badges, belt loops and such as a Tiger.

We played "Kim's Game". http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/b-p/kims.htm A search I did for this said that "Happy Days are Here Again" was the number 1 song of 1930. Print out the words and teach it to them. I am going to use the original verses and then teach them my own 'Cub Scout Days are Here Again' verse.

Son: Exalted one who wields the checkbook. Scouts: Mr. Torveaux In general I think that the tendency for youngsters to address adults by their first name is one step toward overall disrespect. Sure, there is anecdotal evidence of great kids who do it and bad ones who don't but in my experience working with kids, those who show the most outward respect tend to be the most respectful.