torribug

Not all of the yellow ribbon magnets are purchased at Walmart, Walgreen's, etc. As a matter of fact, I purposely chose to not fall into that trap of emotional spending because it is despicable that retailers are making a profit off of young men and women's blood. Maybe I shouldn't have bought one at all, but I bought mine from a soldier in my Texas Guard unit who got them donated from a manufacturer. She sold them to individuals, with 100% of the sale price going to buy phone cards and AAFES cards for the soldiers and Marines in Iraq. So I guess even if mine gets stolen, it already served its purpose. There are, sadly enough, places in town where I know that I need to take it off of the back of my car for fear of theft of the magnet or vandalism to my car! And as the parent of a Marine, I think it's not just possible, but essential, to separate the ideologies behind supporting our troops vs. advocating the war.

Will the ACLU now sue Congress? Probably.

Welcome back, BW! I don't post often, but do enjoy reading your views on things. I also like reading folks' opposing views. What I like most of all is when y'all are respectful to each other when you have those opposing views!

The Family Life merit badge is a good example of a MBC not being around for some of the activities/requirements. Pictures, reports, charts, receipts, etc. can go neatly in a notebook. The MBC needs to trust that the scout has completed some of the activities. That's 90 days worth of 5 different chores, plus two projects that benefit the household. I don't know of a single parent that would let their son fudge on THAT one! While not a necessity (for most MBs), notebooks are great things to keep whenever a scout works solo on a merit badge. Then it's really easy for the MBC to see what has been done.

Torveaux, you were absolutely correct when you mentioned the beret covers being manufactured in China. I remember when they were issued to the Guard. They were (are) cheap little things, too! I think they sold for $3. Don't hold their form very well. That's why I wanted to make sure that the MC shirts were made in USA before I publically complained about the price vs. quality of the BSA shirts. After much googling, I actually saw a summary of the MC contract - the manufacturing company HQ is in Metairie, LA, with work to commence in Columbia, Missouri. I looked at the tag in my BSA uniform, but it doesn't say who the manufacturer is. However, there is a BSA logo on the tag. Can anyone tell me if the manufacturer of the BSA shirts is the BSA or is it an unnamed supplier?

As Bob pointed out, National has no policy against it. Some folks may feel uncomfortable because there may be a conflict of interest. But why are we so suspicious of parents? The program is to help a boy become a leader, and if the parents cheat, their own son is hurt MUCH more than the scouting program is. Why should we think that parents may not have their son's best interest at heart? A scout is trustworthy. I homeschool my son. We supplement some of our curriculum with merit badge work. I definitely prefer my son to go out and find a merit badge counselor other than me, for various reasons. He learns to initiate contact with somebody he doesn't know very well. He gets to know more adults as teachers. It takes a bit of the teaching load off of me - he's accountable to another person for a lesson or two, not just me. There have been a few times when I've had to be the MB counselor because another counselor wasn't available for a merit badge he wants to work on OR I happen to be the the troop's merit badge counselor for the merit badge he wants to work on. Regardless of who the merit badge counselor is, my son puts together a portfolio of his work. He gives it to the merit badge counselor, then the two of them review his work. If I'm the counselor, he keeps hold of the portfolio in case there are people who believe the first part of the scout law only applies to them, and come around and question him (or me).

The Marine Corps shirts are made by Rutter Rex here in the good ol' USA. So now my response to the original question is this: They don't have to be made in Bangladesh to be cheaper!!! I realize that there need to be markups associated with these kinds of things - but really, 100%? I'm using the 100% figure assuming that the $16 that I saw on the military site is at cost. Also, the fabric for the Marine Corps shirt appears to be much more durable (thicker) and the stitches are a lot more heavy-duty.

Oh, I wasn't saying that we should use the Marine Corps shirts for BSA uniform shirts - I was just showing that BSA is providing pretty much the same thing for double the cost. I still don't know if the gov't is getting the uniforms from domestic sources. If they are getting them from overseas, of course they're going to be cheaper. I'll follow up on this when I learn more. I would rather pay an extra $16 for a BSA shirt that will last for three more years if it is made in the USA vs. overseas.

I had a very interesting revelation this past week regarding BSA uniforms. My oldest son just graduated from Marine Corps boot camp. I noticed that the Boy Scout uniform, from the rear at least, looks suspiciously like my oldest son's Marine Corps class C. Tan button-down shirt and green trousers (although Marine trousers don't have extra pockets). I had him (oldest) look at the tag to see where the shirt was manufactured, but it didn't say "Manufactured in ________". All it said was DSCP, which is Division Supply Center Philadelphia. I am interested in knowing if the military (hopefully!) gets their stuff from US manufacturers. I priced the Marine Corps shirt, and they are only $16.20 - half of what a BSA shirt costs. I don't think that the addition of epaulet holders, a flag patch, and a BSA strip would jack the cost up by 100%.

JohnD, We agree to most of this; please read my earlier posts. The reviewer was wrong. I am glad the scout stood up for himself when asked to do something that he wasn't comfortable with, and that clearly wasn't a part of the requirements. It was the WAY that he refused that I have a problem with. Walking out of the board and then quitting the troop altogether without talking it over with troop leaders - or requesting a different reviewer - is where I see poor leadership and perhaps lack of scout spirit. "If you don't like something, quit" kind of a thing, when it might have been possible to try to change things. As far as contagion goes, I think that if the patrol mates see that quitting just because they don't like something is a FIRST course of action, the patrol will thin out rather quickly. Perhaps I am "oldschool" in thinking that it's best to try and work things out instead of being a quitter. Torveaux and Fox, If the troop guidelines had stated in advance that earrings were not to be worn, then I might not have as much of an issue with this whole thing, because that would have been an understood rule before the boy joined the troop. He could have made his choice whether or not to join that particular troop based on the known rules that he had to follow. However, according to GreenEagle, the committee has in the past reviewed tatooed and bejeweled boys; one made it to Eagle a couple of years ago. The person in the BOR was flat-out wrong to make up rules as s/he went along based on their own personal preferences - ESPECIALLY when there was an earlier precedent set.

Well, GreenEagle, that is a tough one about the patrol mates. Was the scout in question a patrol leader or assistant? Did all of the boys in the patrol cross over from the same pack? Are they close-knit? Is there somebody that can run interference, preferably NOT the SM that is "old school"? I would not want to grovel to the young man that left; it clearly was inappropriate to leave the way he did, and doing so didn't show leadership or scout spirit. However, it might be prudent to have somebody in the troop talk to the boy's parents and find out the whole scoop of what went on in the review, and go from there. Bad attitudes can be contagious, and it would be a good idea to find the antidote quickly before the rest of the patrol are infected.

t487, That is something that never occurred to me. We have several parents in our troop who are accountants. I will ask them next meeting. Although I have been told that the boys can buy gear with their scoutbucks, I don't know that any have lately, since I'm not the one that handles that. Good question, and thanks for bringing that up. I would REALLY hate to see us get into a bind over that.

No, the snippet from the Boy Scout Handbook doesn't define in totality what obedience is all about, but it defines the essence. My stance is that it is not quite right to say the boy was disobedient because he didn't comply to the whims of a reviewer. What about the rules of your faith, your sports team, your clubs, etc. etc.(bold emphasis added by me). I agree that rules should be followed. But he wansn't breaking any rules. He disagreed with an adult, placed in an authoritative position, who made up arbitrary "rules" as the game went along. Disagreement is not the same as disobedience.Now before it gets taken out of context, I would say that the necessity of obedience to a leader on an outing when there are safety issues (which, in turn are based on rules found in G2SS) and common sense issues ("get away from the ledge", "don't throw gasoline on the fire" "don't eat the yellow snow") are different circumstances and would be hard to argue with. Conditioning our youth to comply with adults "because I said so" breeds distrust/resentment toward the adult leadership, and in return impacts the effectiveness of said leadership.

The boy should not have walked out of his board and quit over an earring. But Semper, I have to disagree with you on the rest of your post. Per the Boy Scout Handbook, Obedient is defined as "A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them." I don't see where Obedience means that a scout should blindly follow the arbitrary orders of an adult that the child may or may not know (or trust) as a leader. To say that a scout is disobedient because he didn't do as he is told by an adult - just because that adult is in an authoritative position - is reckless. Think about where that could lead.

Yes, and up to the point where said leader had blue hair, I had successfully reasoned with a certain young man to NOT dye his black hair flourescent orange because he was in a leadership position. I acquiesced and told him he could. As of this writing, he hasn't done it because he doesn't want to pay for the supplies. Adolescents (even grownups acting like them) need to make their individuality known. Hair will grow out, the piercing hole in the ear (or nose, or tongue, or ______) will close, and if we do our jobs as adults, they will go on to be great leaders despite the fact that they chose to be "different" for a while. In elementary school, Castleboy had a modified Marine haircut. One weekend he bleached his hair (two-tone with just the crown bleached, back and sides still black) because a youth leader in his Young Marines platoon did. He went to school on Monday and caused quite a stir among students and faculty alike. All of a sudden, EVERYONE knew who he was. The following Monday, there were about 5 more boys that were sporting the same hairstyle - so much for individuality! Some parents questioned why I would allow such a thing. Being a consumer of Miss Clairol myself, I was not willing to be a hypocrite for something that is so temporary. It's about picking your battles. I still have some great pics, and we get a laugh out of looking at them.

One of our former scoutmasters, still active with the Venture Crew, wears an earring. One of the current ASMs wears an earring. Several of the boys have long hair. My question would be, "where does it say that wearing an earring disqualifies you from sitting in a board because you're 'out of uniform'?" I would REALLY hope that none of the boys in our troop would come with facial piercings. But if they did, then barring any written rules, I would let them sit for their board. I might make light of the piercings - I'm known for speaking my mind - but it isn't my place to make up rules. I am sad to hear that the boy and his dad left the troop instead of standing their ground and affecting change within the adult leadership.

Meals for weekly campouts is about the only thing a scout can't spend their Scout Bucks on. The way we handle that is that every boy going gives $10 (cash) to the grubmaster. It's up to the grubmaster to stay within budget or pay the difference.

Thanks, Eagle.One more thing: In our troop, Scout Bucks can be used to pay for more than just activities. The money can be used to pay for gear, too.

Our troop uses individual accounts. For fundraisers that require selling, the scouts get a percentage of what they sell. For the group fundraisers, the boys don't get commission (garage sale, for an example). Most, but not all, of the families in our troop can afford to send their scouts to most of the activities. Whether they can afford it or not isn't the whole picture for a boy to have an individual account. I think that your SM and ASM are missing a great opportunity to let the boys learn to "pay their own way," plus many, many other life lessons. I'll use my son as an example. Every year, my son pays for half of his summer camp tuition using his Scout Bucks account. Last year, he earned enough to go to two different summer camps. He just got selected for the Philmont trek next summer. It's on the pricey side. Our troop is doing one of our annual fundraisers right now. DS is selling tickets like crazy, because he knows that he has to cough up $500 within the next year. Some folks have accused me of being stingy by not paying 100% of the costs. Thankfully, my son doesn't see it that way, and gladly sells tickets door-to-door, as long as I'm willing to accompany him (that's our rule). What he gets out of it is more than the opportunity to go to camp. He gets a sense of accomplishment for paying his way. He is developing a great work ethic. He is getting practice in developing goals. He is learning to talk to adults as equals and make eye contact. He's becoming an excellent salesman. He's learned how to calculate commissions based on percentages. He's met a lot of people. It makes him feel good when a customer from last year's fundraiser sees him in the grocer store and says, "Gee, I really enjoyed that meal last year. When are you doing it again?" It certainly takes an awful lot more work for me to take him out selling than it does to simply write a check. But in the long run, the skills and values my son learns are worth all the time that we spend. Isn't developing the boy into a man part of what scouting is all about? One other thought. If you are willing to put in the effort to get this started, shouldn't you be working with the committee, and NOT leaving this up to the scoutmaster? While our scoutmaster is very supportive of fundraising efforts, and gives input, I don't think he would ever take it upon himself to decide how the money gets divvied up, or even try to decide what fundraisers are worthy of our time. It's a committee thing.

Eric, I don't think you are overreacting by being annoyed. That's just something that happens - we're human and we have emotions. I would ask myself, though, if holding onto that annoyance is making a difference in the world - either to you, to John, or to anybody else. It probably isn't. What DOES make a difference in the world is that YOU live the scout law on a daily basis. You undoubtably gave John some food for thought, and although he may not have "gotten it" right then and there, hopefully he will think twice before he speaks unkind words next time. And maybe - just maybe - as he matures and continues his scouting journey, he, too, will take the time to counsel another young scout in what it means to live the scout law. BUG

Don't forget to make it a game and make it fun! My son is a den chief for Webelos, but didn't do knots. Instead, he made a game of "concentration" with pictures of the scout sign, scout salute, scout handshake, and the scout motto and slogan. He got credit for teaching AND for supplying a game (one of your requirements for Den Chief). I agree with the others that if you are weak on knots, you should teach them. We learn to do what we must teach. I would suggest learning a couple of the knots, then make a game of it to make it fun. Chances are, if you are frustrated, they will be, too, but if you make it a game, there's less chance to get frustrated. BUG

I read this article a few days ago when our CC sent it out. I had hoped it would end up here. Thanks Trevorum. I would honestly have a fit if some judge ordered a youth offender to "serve time" in my son's troop. BSA has tried and true methods for helping WILLING boys grow into honest, responsible young men. ORDERING a youth offender to serve time in a troop is nothing more than a social experiment that could damage the scouting program in the troop. Negative attitudes are contagious. Unless the judge himself is the SM and has court officers as his ASMs, and all of the adjudicated youth are joining his troop, I think that judge is WAY out there in expecting other people to take up for the juvenile justice system. That said, I have no problem with a youth offender (sex offenders excepted) joining on his own free will, if his intentions are pure in that he wants to make something of himself and make positive changes in his life. I don't think we as adult leaders are privvy to that information - it's not like the youth application asks for that information, right?

Our troop doesn't use them, but I think awarding them would be a fun addition to our parents' night activities at the end of summer camp!

Way to go! I hope that he takes the training and becomes a great ASM. Maybe he really didn't know that he was supposed to go through certain channels, so you handled it well, likely without embarassing him or anything. Bug

The problem with having to conduct the merit badge sessions with another scout in addition to your own son is that you have to find another scout that wants to do that merit badge! For example - I personally don't want my son to earn any of the Citizenship badges at camp (or merit badge university) because I don't have faith that they are truly covering everything adequately; I don't want my son to "earn" them as "gimme" merit badges. However, a lot of the other boys DO earn their Citizenship badges at camp - they know it's easier! Another example is some of the harder non-Eagle required merit badges such as Soil and Water conservation. There's a lot of work required for that, and unless a scout is going for the Hornaday award, it's difficult to get them interested in working on a merit badge outside of Summer Camp. It's also often difficult to get schedules to mesh outside of regular meeting nights to work on the merit badges. Bug