tombitt

Horizon - absolutely it was Camp Garland! I thought they switched to ground beef right after our experience (1974-1976 range). Opinions are good. This forum has been helpful for me to understand how polarizing this issue is, needless to say. I am completely in sync with your views. I also agree that my son needs to abide by the troop policy, but he may be one of the few who are actually going to do that. You see, the scouts are mostly carrying phones, and hiding them out of sight of the leaders. I saw this firsthand at a scouting event a few weekends ago - and from what I saw, scouts were mainly using them to take pics and find each other across the site (which wasn't in the deep, dark woods - it was in a county fairgrounds on the east coast). Regardless, it's not my concern whether/how the policy is enforced, and I'm done on this topic. I've shared my views with the SM, in response to his request to discuss the issue. Up to him, now. It is clear to me there is a huge disparity across troops on how this issue is handled. It's encouraging to me that this forum exists to share experiences. It's discouraging that most opinions are fixed in concrete. It's also up to my son if he wants to pursue it with the PLC (most of whom carry and use phones during scouting events). Good to "meet" you, Horizon! I'd love to go back and see Garland again someday. Tom

Excuse the long post - this will be my last on this topic. For the spirited and mostly Scout-like discussion of a difficult issue, I thank you. For those who felt the need to declare someone with a different opinion immature, a helicopter parent, an unworthy scout leader, or unethical - well, you weren't as effective. I urge you to respect open discussion. Why didn't we choose a different troop due to the policy? Because the policy was essentially just made up a few months ago, and passed on verbally. It's implementation is spotty, and seems to change on the whims of the SM. Would have been better to engage the scouts (and maybe the parents) in a discussion, and write the darned thing down. Am I telling my son to lie? Of course not. Again, my son is one of a few who are honest about the fact that they have cell phones. Of the parents who disagree with the policy, I'm the only one to engage the SM to discuss it. Give me some credit. The issue is between the SM and me, and I engaged as soon as I realized what was going on. I created this thread to better understand both sides. I feel that I could argue both sides of the issue now! That shows that there is a reasonable difference of opinion on a tough issue. Even so, I encourage everyone to be open-minded about changes that are affecting our teenagers, and try to find ways to embrace and include what we can. I'll take one final thwack at this. I'm concerned about a number of the arguments against scouts having cell phones. I found all of these, below, in this thread: 1) Scouts aren't trustworthy: They'll do things they aren't supposed to do 2) Scouts aren't courteous: They'll bother everyone around them 3) Scouts aren't obedient: They'll break any rules we put in place 4) Scouts aren't thrifty: They'll call pay phone services 5) Scouts aren't brave: They'll use it to call for mommy 6) Scouts aren't clean: They'll surf porn sites In addition: 1) It ruins nature (OK, I get this) 2) We have to treat all scouts like 11-year olds (I totally disagree) 3) Cell phones won't work anyway in many locations (which makes this a non-issue, right?) 4) I don't need one/didn't have one 40 years ago (poor argument) 5) They can always just rely on adult leaders (not treating them like young adults) 6) Scout leaders don't have time to police cell phones (I understand this one) What we might be failing to notice is that cell phones are a part of teenagers lives today whether we like it or not. Teenagers use cell phones for a type of social networking and communication we never had. We're worried about them calling mommy, when they probably are calling someone in their patrol (apparently, even the SPL who was breaking the policy this last weekend was using the phone to organize scouts). We worry about them texting their girlfriend, when they are just as likely texting a scout across camp, or tweeting on the cool scout things they are doing, or updating their daily blog on their trip. We worry they are looking at porn sites, when they are looking at the weather forecast. We worry they aren't focused on nature, when they are taking a picture with their phone camera. We worry they are playing video games, when they are going through their list of camp equipment. We don't worry about the possibility a scout will come across an accident, and have no way to call 911. Does this happen often? Of course not. Doesn't need to happen often to be worthwhile. A few weeks ago my son was walking down the hallway at school looking at his Ipod. A teacher saw him and told him to "put that thing away." What she didn't know is he was updating his list of homework. This is the attitude that I'm worried about. Can this tool be misused? Sure. So can knives, axes, matches, propane stoves, pencil and paper, books. Can't they get away from it for a few days? Sure. They can use pencil and paper to draw the things they see, keep their lists on pencil and paper, and rely on adults for the rest. Or, we can take this tool that is a part of their lives and include it in the scouting experience. Can we have an electronics-free campout? Absolutely. We should also have more primitive campouts, without stoves, fancy tents, etc. Make it an adventure, a carrot rather than a stick. Make it a feature, and the scouts will love it! Make it a restriction and the scouts will just see it as that. Worried they are spending too much time online? Ask them to update a patrol/troop blog (with text and pictures). Make someone responsible for monitoring the weather. Restrict use to leaders. Restrict use based on age. Earn use. Take away the privilege when there is too much abuse. Confiscate when there is abuse. Communicate to the parents about what you are trying to accomplish, and get their help. I think there are a lot of ideas more creative and helpful than "no tolerance". Remember my experience - my son was yelled at by the SM for using a phone post-scout meeting - to ensure he had a ride (he hadn't seen his sister's car outside). I want my son to continue on through Eagle, and this kind of thing makes it hard for me. Scouting is either about building character and self-reliance, or it's about doing things the way old people want to do it (the way we did it when we were young). If it's the latter, scouting is doomed, IMHO. That's my opinion about scouting and cell phones. But there is room for healthy debate, and I'm sure it will keep going, and going... I'm hoping to help our SM develop a written, clear, fair, logical policy about cell phone use. This seat-of-the-pants policy is not working. I think there is a compromise here that gets what he is trying to accomplish more effectively than is happening today.

This is really helping me nail down my own position - and I'm less concerned right now with my son's experience than with BSA policy in general. Scouting teaches character, responsibility, self-reliance in today's world - not just the great outdoors. Scouting is involved in all aspects of a young scout's character development. There's no reason to exclude something like responsible use of technology. The easy thing for scouting to do is exclude things like cell phones, Internet access, etc., etc. The harder thing is to find an effective way to integrate what is already a part of the scout's life into their scouting experience in a way that teaches character and responsibility. Cell phones are a tool, just like a knife, to be used responsibly. We allow the scouts to learn and earn the right to use a knife - a privilege that can be taken away. Likewise, I would like scouts to have the same with a cell phone. For camping, it can be a tool to take a picture, find out about the weather, get a map, locate another scout, or call for help. If abused, it can be taken away. I don't like a system that says "I will never trust you". I prefer "here is the responsible way, keep earning my trust". I really, really like Scoutldr's suggestion of an Electronics Totin' Chip. Earn it first, have a policy on responsible use, abuse it and lose it. My concern right now is that Scouting has no policy here - the policy is being set strictly by Scoutmasters. Nothing against giving Scoutmasters some autonomy, but we can see on this thread that the policies are radically different in every troop. I've seen it at scout camp. Recently, they had a musical group play at a campfire. Afterward, about half the scouts raised their cell phones with the lights on looking like lighters. The other half of the scouts wondered why some were allowed cell phones, and some weren't. Inconsistent. We can do a little better. By the way, I believe that the 2010 National Jamboree is working with AT&T to ensure good cell coverage - for the scouts! Should be interesting to see some scouts coming in to a Jamboree with a "no tolerance" policy in their troops, some coming in with no restrictions and nothing keeping them from constantly texting mom and girlfriend, and some coming in using the phone responsibly. Can't we make more of the latter?

Twocubdad, I'm listening. I'm Eagle 1975. I've been a cubmaster, and I suspect I'll eventually become a scoutmaster. I did the Wilderness Survival merit badge when it was brand new - we took a bunch of live chickens, some matches, and a few sheath knives into the woods, killed and cooked the chickens (imagine that with sheath knives only), and safely survived an unexpected severe Oklahoma thunderstorm without tents or high-tech comm gear. I'm also a technology expert, I advise major companies about new technologies, and I help our school district with their technology plan. I'm saying this because I can see both sides of this. What leans me the one direction is that I really believe in building self-reliance and responsibility in young men. On the other hand, scouting can't take on all the responsibility to do that - and a lot of parents just abdicate that role. If scouting tells a 14-year old (or older) young man that they can't trust him with a cell phone, period, that's a shame. I'd like to find a compromise solution. I like the Totin' Chip idea.

Lisabob - I didn't ask the SM to make an exception for my son. The issue is that the policy (which has only been verbal) has been ignored by the troop, most boys carry cell phones with them but hide them, and use them out of sight of leaders. I suggested that the SM change the policy to "OK to carry, but must remain off", and enforce it better. We had a situation this weekend where the SM heard a boy was using his phone, asked the scouts who had one, and two honest scouts, including my son admitted they had them. He confiscated. The other scouts lied (including the SPL and sons of other scout leaders on site). The result was the honest scouts - who had not been using their phones frivolously - were punished. The current policy is not working. In addition, I have decided as a parent to disregard the policy, and I've allowed my son to carry. He has never abused that privilege. Just last week, however, my son was "caught" using his phone after a regular scout meeting was completely over - he was calling to ensure that one of us was picking him up from the meeting. The SM yelled at him to put away the phone. This level of "no tolerance" and techno-avoidance is ludicrous, in my opinion. I totally understand the issue with abuse of cell phones. But, scoutldr, fair and equitable does not mean you treat all scouts as 11-year olds who want their mothers. Scouting is about growing up. Scouts learn skills, learn responsibilities, and earn privileges, like using a knife (responsibly), using an axe (responsibly). We don't just throw these things at young scouts. We also don't equitably say no scouts can use these tools, and cover our eyes to a tool that these kids need to learn to use responsibly. This is a hard one, and I respect that. But scouting can't ignore this part of a growing man's life. Scoutldr, think about that jerk with the cell phone in the car who almost sideswiped you. In the future, that's the scout who was not allowed to use his phone, or who used it only when the leader wasn't looking. Can scouting have a role here? I think so.

Appreciate the feedback, but a little too much psychoanalysis here. I'm not tethered to my 14-year old Star scout son. I do not and never have called my son while he was on a campout. He's quite independent, and we treat him very much like an adult. The question is why can't the scout leaders trust the kids? I want my son to have a tool. I want him to "be prepared" - in the 21st century, not 20th. I've been in a house while it was half-destroyed by a tornado, and I've used my cell phone to call for an ambulance once, and the police three times. I see no reason for my son not to have that tool. Yes, of course, he could rely on the likelihood of an adult leader to take that responsibility. I see no reason to treat the scouts as children, however. My scout leader doesn't let his scouts carry a phone, on or off. I'd be perfectly happy if the rule was you can carry it, but keep it off. The scoutmaster himself does not carry a phone (but he assumes other leaders do). I absolutely do appreciate scout leaders, which is why I've been a cub scout leader for eight years, and will move into boy scout leadership when my youngest moves on. I think this is really an issue of not knowing how to deal with a new technology. I'm sure scout leaders years ago had problems with "high-tech" camp stoves, Gore-tex, etc. I think it will be important for Scouting to stay up-to-date with new technologies. Scouting is about character and self-reliance in today's age - not about doing things the way they were done 40 years ago. I do appreciate and respect the feedback. This is giving me a good idea of the opinions on the issue - a little surprising to me, but that's why I asked.

My son's troop has a zero tolerance policy for cell phones. That means no cells phones on campouts, no cell phones in meetings, no cell phones ever. This conflicts with our family's policy. We believe cell phones are at least an emergency tool. We want our kids to have their phones with them at all times. If my son was on the way to a campout, and there was an accident, if my son was not close to a leader and someone got hurt, if a tornado was sighted and I wanted to let them know, or if my son was lost - I want him to have a cell phone. I'm sure with just a little bit of searching I could build a long list of examples where scouts had saved a life because of a cell phone, or had been lost and found by cell signal triangulation. I completely respect (and my son respects) rules about not using the phone frivolously. As a parent, I'm willing to enforce that with my son. I also have no problem if the adults on the scene at a campout or meeting enforce that rule (by confiscating his phone, etc.). Rules that limit their use are fine with me. As an Eagle Scout and a current cub scout leader myself, I understand the issues and I deeply love the natural outdoors. However, I have a serious problem with a scout leader setting rules that contradict my rules as a parent. I've discussed this with the scoutmaster, and he is not willing to make exceptions. Scouting is about building character and self-reliance. Cell phones are tools to be respected and used in a responsible way. The solution to cell phone abuse is not to ban their use at scouting events, but to encourage responsible use. You do not teach self-reliance by telling scouts that if they need to make a phone call, they can only go through an adult leader with a phone. You might as well reserve matches, knives, axes, tools of any kind to the leaders. Better to teach the kids how the phone can be used as a tool, and when it is and is not appropriate. I'd like to hear other opinions.