Thomas54

The flag is tucked away in the corner collapsed into a drape. The uniform is out in public and reminds the scout who is providing a lot of the resources and accepting the risk. It announces to the public the charity support the organization is providing to youths in the community. Greaves your comment drips with ingratitude towards your son's charter. He could earn and be awarded the Baptist religious emblem to distinguish himself as a Baptist. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

Love2Camp thanks for posting. Your message wasn't as much "can they do this" as it was "why". Can they? They did! So I guess the committee is not worried the charter will resend their decision. Fighting this will blow up the troop committee and bog down the unit in adult battles for a year or two. Two camps will form and the program will suffer. Chances are this is going to happen anyway because many parents will be sympathetic to your poorly handled treatment. I see two things here: One, your post sounds a little Den mother-ish. The Co-Scoutmaster arrangement sounds like something women do more than men. The outings and projects in the way you described them sounded more like a Webelos I den leader. The old guard may have had issues with women scoutmasters or at least den mothers posing as scoutmasters. On the other hand, it sounds like you were doing the things that needed to get done. I believe what you were doing was very much like any brand new scoutmaster would do. A summer camp plan (reservation are filling fast),a council outing some service work. All good stuff. These things just don't happen and if you lurked through the "PLC is in a Rut" thread you know that boys don't always self actuate a quality program. You didn't mention your scout experience, such as years in the troop and on the committee, a son who eagled a year ago... that may help to understand this. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

I have always thought that the Charter should get recognition on the uniform. I would place the Charter's association emblem in the "temporary" patch pocket area. The patch would identify the scout as an LDS, United Methodist, Catholic, Rotarian, PTA... scout. The BSA appears to want the scout to look as if BSA were the sole contributor the scout's program. In fact I think if we added up all the cost for meting rooms, camp equipment, committee over sight, and the likes, that the units use more of the Charter's resources than the BSA's. Without this becoming the main thyme of the debate I believe most will agree that the charter supplies a significant amount of resources to the troop. I just think for that contribution the Charter association should get recognized on the most visible part of the program, the scout's uniform. I also believe that recognition would help improve relationship between the BSA and the Charters. What say Ye?

Although they can both speak for themselves let me say that I hold respect and admiration for both Jblake and Kudu. I have read their posts for years and believe that they both oversee well run, boy led programs. Their posts may indicate that their programs are considerably different, even radical compared to all other units but I bet if you walked into their troop meeting it would look, sound and feel very much the typical boy scout troop. I may question, ponder or get perplexed over the subtleties of a particular incident but if I lived near their units I bet I would want my son in their programs. Thank You

In a truly Boy Led troop the SPL would have more control over the checkbook and not have to justify to some CC that the troop needs stoves. That's a program issue between him and the SM. To me this is a fundamental issue in troops. The CC should have oversight of the treasury but not complete autocratic rule over every expenditure. The Spl should be justifing the stove purchases to his PLC. There are two major things that decide who runs the troop, the checkbook and the calendar. If the committee's mom & dads have complete control over both, that is an adult run troop. Also I would not take kindly to a CC digging in full force to my SPL. That's for the SM to do in his own way. The CC should have asked why I allowed the SPL to come to such an important meeting unprepared. Why had I not guided and instructed the Scout on what might be expected at an adult committee meeting. Honestly, Jblake47, sometimes your complete montessori approach to governing your troop perplexes me.

Please, DCI has 3500 college age music majors in it. Our Suburban soccer club has over 2,000 youths in it. DCI does not equal rec marching band at any minimal test.

We are a top heavy troop. The troop roster has 2/3 in high school. For the last three years the webelos have come, looked at our program and determined its too advanced. Its too mature for their boys. They then go to the more school looking and highly adult run troop across town. Its killing our youth membership and our adult volunteer support as well. The Webelos parent's expectations are that Boy Scouts is Webelos III (or more acurately Tiger V). I have been unable to pursued, cajole or convince these Webelos parents that a boy led program doesn't turn the weekly troop meeting into a MB class room. So to tie back into the original thread, we do not have a good middle school program in our troop and its hurting membership.

Though crowd Beavah. Unless it was tied to school grades what kid would take such a thing as marching band? None and non do. There are plenty of recreational and many select football, soccer, baseball, basketball, hockey leagues... that are offered outside of school. Ever seen a rec league marching band? NO Why because Marching Band could not survive as a program for youths on it own merits. Without the scholastic support its a lost program. Clearly it has no value above being a participation grade for school events. The argument within the thread seems to have fallen to, Marching band delivers a program attractive to HS students while scouting does not. I am the father of a HS senior, a HS freshmen and the SM for a troop of 25+ boys. Their biggest fear from what I can tell is the fear of growing up. Making life choices for college and degree program. Filling out college applications and visiting colleges. Going away to college for many of the scouts and their families is foreign. Going to and out of state college is unimaginable. I am convinced that the trips scouting builds its program around, the leadership element, the public service and public speaking emphasis, and finally the personal character building will serve the youths long past and more personally than marching band will. Funny at my kid's private school they can take an elective called "leadership" its a course that includes a low ropes and a high cope course followed by an outward bound weekend in the everglades. Sounds like scouting to me.

For the band people: Given the time to do only one, band or Scouts the youth's time is better off in? I have seen scouts try and do both and in general it's a scout meeting once a month, no service work and no campouts. Hardly scouting if you ask me.

Scouts who did not get credit for this camp out should demand their money back from the unit's treasury. Since the committee sees this as a rouge scouting event, the scouts should have their money returned and an apology from the the CC.

It appears that the scout has no record of criminal misconduct. Or at least this is not the issue. He is a member in good standing with the unit. The incident investigation did not reveal him as lying only that his mother's conduct did not rise to the level of criminal charges. As evmori said, the EBOR is about him not her. She appears to want to even the score. Lovely people.

Band - Marches in formation Scouts - sorta march in formation Band - cool uniforms with feathers Scouts - cool uniforms no feathers Band - Twice weekly meetings Scouts - once a week Band - Co-ed Scouts - Boys only Band - lead chair Scouts - Boy led Band - costly equipment scouts - costly equipment Side by side they look close but many times band wins out. Why?

It's the workbook.

Thanks, I'll make a few suggestions to the wording and then meet with the scout to discuss.

You as the SM or the Eagle coordinator see several writing errors in a scout's Eagle application. Do you go through and mark it up, adding comments to improve the wording? ------------------------------------------------ yes it's ironic that I had to edit this for errors.(This message has been edited by Thomas54)

We Den Camped, errr family camped. Some of the best camping we ever did. Most of the scouts and families that participated are still in scouting. There is no tangible proof that den camping is linked to Boy Scout attrition. And if your Troop is still only doing local, wide open field, flush toilet camping in Boy Scouts your troop's imagination has run dry.

No advice just some speculation. Your 30 year scout master has checked out. He has entered a.realm where his previous merits are sustaining him. He is now in legacy and legend development and not boy development. The evil parent saw this and selected this troop because of this. Daddy ASM's usually don't sign off on their son's rank. At least not in our Troop.

My Advice Just float up and down with this one. How this parent is contriving his son's scout experience is of no concern to you. If the troop wants to hold a MB class during a couple of meetings, ok, go with it. Fighting from the back of the committee room and attempting to steer this off course ship is next to impossible. The whole thing will eventually blow up in your and your son's face. That said; I suspect that when a parent or committee member says the "scouts want" that it is really "I want this for my scout". The only group that can speak for the scouts is the PLC. And the only one who should be conveying the "scout messages" from the PLC to the committee/parents is The Scoutmaster. It sounds like your 30+ year SM has retired in-place.

The possible reasoning of "we lose the hard vopies" a little funny. The situation. A dutiful eagle candidate walks into the council office with his workbook in a brown envelop in one hand and a flash drive in the other. S - "What do you want me to do with the flash drive?" C - "just put it in the enevelop."

My scouts would gladly send it over to council in digital format using email or even skype. Sending it on CD is a one step away from saying send it on a floppy. Also, the term "thumb drive" sounds old world too. I would expect a more generic term, sucah as USB flash drive. My guess is that many of the Eagle applicants are more comfortable with technology than the reviewers at council. Paper still rules at our council.

Ok what's the tally? I need things in absolutes. The evil boy scout parents are the ones paying for their son's trips or the ones not paying for their trips? Since scriptures were brought up can I assume that one of these choices will damn me and the other won't? Also is Beavah a real preacher or does he just play one on the forums? (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

Well I agree with you Beavah. The scout does not really pay his own way. The volunteers are not paid, the hall is free, the equipment and trailer do not come with a usage fee. Plus, although some trip expenses may be picked up or fund-raised away, there are still dues, uniforms MB academies. Besides we have all seen that the there is a variety of ways to run a troop. Some troop camp only in council camps and range only an hour or two from the meeting hall. Others wander across country with much higher fees. So a troop with camp fees that total out at $300 year; yea maybe selling popcorn and mowing lawns will get this scout through on his own. But out of council camps, Jamaborees, Camporees, Seabase and Norther tiers plus any variety of High Adventure in between will run beyond nearly all expected wages capacities of a 12 - 14 year old. So you pick your lessons. "Son pay your own way and have few and limited experiences or son here is funding for you to see parts of the State and Country that many kids your age have not seen". We have chosen the latter for our son. Plus put a car Vs scout decision in front of a 16 year old boy and he may still be in scouts but forget about him ponying up $300 for summer camp. He has gas to buy. As far as the myth part, which I also agree with, when we look at old scout books from 1940' - 1960's they may have showed some homemade equipment but for the most part parents bought their gear then too. The stove fuel may have been liquid and the tent were likely troop canvas tents. But the aluminum pots nestled then too. Battery powered flashlights predate WWII may at least a decade. Boots were bought, food was bought gas too. This Myth is: "CONFIRMED"

Eliminating the SPL could improve the development of the PL and the patrols themselves. Often the SPL is just not capable of developing his PL. The SPL doesn't understand the nuances of director through mentoring. Then when the scoutmaster advises the SPL to consider leading an activity the SM can only watch as his well intentioned advise is delivered in a series of commands and decrees. I think the program is written and may work well for the SPL to be in 10-11th grade. However, we typically get 7-8 graders as SPL's.

I have determine that this will be my final year as SM. My tenure will have been relatively short at 4 years but I served for many year at the Cub level too. I would like to complete one more calendar plan sept-may and then step aside for others to lead. The question is do I go into the Committee meeting in August and announce this or wait until later in the year to do this?

The pot was not split between the donator and the troop. All money went to the troop. It was just who ever got the highest fundraiser (points) got a pie in the face. The only thing I see is that all money raised came from the troop families. I prefer fundraiser where the infusion of cash is external to the troop families. But $500 was raise and new equipment was procured. No one complained about having to anty up another $20/scout for the equipment fund. Cool idea.