Thomas54

I took our Council's WFA two years ago. It was taught by a Pediatrician, a lawyer and an EMT. Best class I took in a long while. Lots of hands on touching and looking one another over. The lawyer was so prepared with on topic material and supporting information that you would of thought it was a Federal case. The doctor kept adding real world examples. The EMT's contribution was good but the other two presenters personalities over powered the EMT's. The delayed response drove home in me that yea help can come but when. Bev, Your quest for information is to make a decision about what? Taking the BSA course or the ARC course?

One of the things that happens when a Webelos unit visits us is that the guy in uniform is perceived to be the most knowledgeable in scouting. Too often I find myself explaining the Boy Scout program to the person in uniform with the notion that if he gets it he can explain it to the rest of his parents. Even parents get all twisted up in knots about protocol or asking a dumb question and leave the person in uniform to ask all the questions. Wear the uniform with pride but perhaps explain that you aren't there to represent the Pack's business but to review the unit's program with your boy. Then say those gold words.... "Yes I am willing to help. Boy Scout specific training, why of course". Sigh!

"but the committee does not exist in reality." This is what we have. I have a great Committee in my one person Committee Chair. What's good about this is that without adults getting together monthly to pontificate about what's right or wrong with the troop we avoid the petty childish fights among the adults. Adult posturing for higher ranking in the social order is usually worse in the committee meeting room than in the troop meeting room. The bad part is that the committee chair and I have about 2-3 times the work load that in a fully functioning committee we might have. Beavah, is right. If we had a functioning oversight group of mostly non parents to steer and direct the unit that would be ideal. I have seen it both ways. Newly arrived Cub Parents read online that the SM is selected my the committee. This gets transformed into the SM is the babysitter in chief and reports to the committee. Uck! PLC's meetings are the best. We sit we they talk, they talk some more, the SM nudges the SPL to bring the discussion to a conclusion. From what I have seen the PLC has more investment and commitment to run a honorable and fair program than the adults. Back to your question. In our troop the SM and the PLC have control over the checkbook. Now every item we spend the CC knows about but the "committee" does not control the checkbook. E-Mtns How much money we talking about $100 $1000 10,000? and what is it for?

My thoughts My first choice: Put three to a tent instead of two. I would keep working these boys to not sleep with their parents. However at the last campout as Webelsos you can let this go either way. I could be a sign of maturity that they are sleeping on their own or that this will be one of the last scout events where you will sleep with dad. Second choice could be all scouts bunk with their dads.

Don't buy tents until you have been in the troop for at least a year. If the webelos families have medium sized family tents, teach the boys how to set these up and let them camp three abreast for a year. After a year they will have a better idea of what "they" want. We have troop tents, the Eureka Timberline IV's and the Eureka Pinnacles Pass 3XT's. They are holding up well. However, one whole patrol has switched to hammock camping. I haven't tried it but they swear by it. Its cooler so its ideal for warm summer nights. They consulted various website and and each other to work out the details among themselves on how to hold off the rain and bugs. This has been a truly boy led development as none of the scoutmasters are sleeping in hammocks. Short answer for the first year make due with what you have and then look for a suitable tent. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

I have a leatherman skeletal. Nice knife! The knife blade is a better than average tool steel so it holds an edge. The pliers pinch my hand every now and then and the there are only about seven tools. I like it but wouldn't say its the end all. My wife has an older traditional leatherman. More features and the pliers are nicer but the blade has about ten good cuts in it before it needs to be sharpened. My 14 year old boy carries a chunkie, semi large, locking blade knife that HE bought from the Army-Navy store. He likes it a lot and carries it to almost every scouting event. Most scouts leave their knives at home so he is always loaning it out. At about 2 years with him now its the longest I have ever seen him keep a knife. All those knives I bought him from the scout store, cabelas and other places have long since disappeared into the beyond. I think I would stick to a medium to large locking blade knife with a good steel blade.

The same weekend that LNT was taught (2nd Weekend of woodbadge) the State forester came out and took us to the Section he did a controlled burn on last month. That is, the surveyor's definition of a section = 1 square mile. I could see a trace! Bev, just as you have seen the abuse in the forest I have seen and read through the LNT zealots. Don't make a camp fire us a stove. LNT = LDAH (leave dogs at home). Don't wear bright colors it might bother others. Talk in hushed tones. Be honest with yourself; campfires aren't destroying our wilderness. Look elsewhere for the problem.

LNT In the leave no trace training course I had with Boy Scouts the trainer extrapolated the highly sensitive areas of the desert southwest or the delicate mountain alpine regions with your neighborhood forest. The general training was a scare tactic that if you take a step off the trail the entire ecosystem will fail. Let's take one of the bigger crimes of leave no trace, making a fire where there was no evidence of one. Let's say that joe hiker has never heard of LNT. Predict the most likely scenario. Most likely for average hiker: He will look for a place off the trail because he doesn't want people walking through his camp site. He will seek out a bare spot on the ground. Why? because it is easier to build a fire there. If there are some rocks around he may buffer or ring the spot. Not much in improvements will be made because most of his effort will be better used gathering fire wood. He drags dead branches over and through the evening only uses half. Some thicker limbs are shown with saw marks from his pocket saw. His fire spot is about the size of a toilet seat. The next morning he pours a canteen of water on it and leaves. To the forest branches have been moved but branches and wind make wood dispersion random. The birds, bugs and forest creatures don't even recognize saw marks. The fire pit is 2 square feet. The forest ecosystem is undaunted by the fire. Let's say in the local State forest this happens 200 times a year. Thus 400 Square feet of forest floor is compromised each year. This amount is inconsequential to a forest measured in square miles. The dispersed wood has no effect on the ecosystem. The fire zone is recolonized with organic creatures eating the partially burnt wood. Most spots can't even be seen from the highly used hiking path. In all but the most sensitive areas, vegetation returns in about one season. If the high handed ecosystem collapse does not scare you out of the forest then your presence there will. Your red sweater is a crime against nature, your saw marks on the branches you cut will ruin someone else's vacation. So even if the ecosystem recovers in one to 2 seasons, your visible presence in the forest could ruin another hikers experience for a life time. Better to just stay home. Let's lock the forest roads and only issue access permits to researchers in the field. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

What does your meeting place look Like? Is it a drab closed walled multi-purpose room of a church, or an airy meeting room with windows a PA system and a kitchen? Your program looks solid even above average and your are recruiting. I would look for something else as the problem.

It will be tough for you to set up a bank account without the tax ID number. Even with it we had to shop around banks willing to set up a checking account. Finally a Bank of America branch manager came through. Girl scouts have a different set up but each troop is required to establish a bank account. I would proceed with caution. No need to get everyone in the CO all upset. Be patient stay in all cash for awhile and maybe a private discussion with the DE and the school's PTA president. Later arrange for a meeting with bank manager and the PTA head. You may want to consider having the PTA head sign off on all checks. Blunt force with this one is not something I would advise. Explain how the alternative is to have a bundle of cash around or worse have the funds run through a personal checking account.

The PTA is delusional. They are responsible for your unit whether or not you use their EIN. Cub Pack XXX does not exist by itself. It is a youth group of the Charter organization. BSA only provides the program material. You default on a check and the PTA is on the hook. This has more to do with lawyers trying to recommend the lowest avenue of risk for their client. Of course not allowing a Pack to use their tax ID number is a lower risk. Eliminate kids and have the parents put up a 1,000 bond would be a lawyer's low risk advice. PTA perhaps is not being all that friendly to your scouting program. If you buy a car with troop funds the Charter organization will be responsible not BSA. Now the PTA will come after you but they are still financially liable for the unit's finances.

"there is the New Scout Patrol There is the Veteran/Regular Patrol There is the Venture Patrol " Too many programs for a thin set of volunteers to run on a given Tuesday night. There needs to be clear and distint cut-off between the Webelos III and the Boy Scouts. Venturing is a feable program that is not accomplishing what I am suggesting. Eagle can only occur in the Boy scout Highschool program. Just trips such as venturing does not get it.

Well I am late to the party but.. The main thing I see for loss in our troop and lack of cross over is that Boy scouts is really two programs; one for middle school kids whose parents want controlled and measured outings and one for high school kids whose parents want more adventure and to hold the scout's interest. Also high school sophomore don't want to hang with six and seventh graders. Further, troop leaders get stretched because the troop program must deliver many different programs, meeting nights must have a program for New scouts, middle scouts and older scouts. That's a lot to ask of a volunteer. Especially with the level of support and training missing at round tables. I would split the program into two; a Middle school program for Tenderfoot through First-class and High school scouts (rising ninth graders)for Star through Eagle. MB would be aged or rank specific. All would be available at the High school level. Some would not be available at the middle school level. De-emphasize leadership in the middle school, pound it in at the high school level. Encourage summer camps for middle schoolers, and High-tier adventure camps for the older scout. That is, two separate programs as dissimilar as cubs from Boy scouts. Use the Cub scout advancement program, a scout never makes first class so what. MB's are not even required prior to the Star rank anyway. A scout comes in at high school, he starts off trying to make Star. He just never gets the first class rank. As a final rant I would combine the citizenship badges into one. Most of what is in these MB's is scholarly anyway and is taught already and more thoroughly in our schools. Locally cooking is not taught ion our schools. Home economics as it was called when I was a youth is not even an elective. Shop and tool safety also are not in our local curriculum. Tools are cool. Emphasize in our scouting program what is not taught in schools outdoors, camping tools. You know cool boy stuff. Is this really a Scouting discussion point? From the World Cit. MB. "2 B. How are changing national interests, democratic values and global economic partnerships affected by the relationships between countries." Yawn!

Similar to what others are saying in that size really doesn't matter. There are some great troops out there the size of a single patrol, others have 8-10 patrols. The one thing I might add is that often rising Cub Scouts families don't recognize the committee's role a Boy Scout unit. Unlike in cubs where the committee is more or less a few parents who plan the calendar, in Boy scouts they are more involved. The committee meets regularly, has all sorts of chairs and parental divisions of responsibility. It conducts Board of Reviews for each rank advancement and over sees program quality. A big strong committee at big troop may have a parent for every youth leadership position. Great that might be what you are looking for. In a small troop with smaller committee the program likely falls more on the SM's and the boys to execute. That may be waht you are looking for. Ask a few questions about the committee's role in running a troop. Who controls the checkbook who controls the calendar.

One legged man jokes should be banned too Band also Blond jokes Jokes about wives Jokes about husbands Jokes about priests/nuns and all clergy Jokes about drunken sailors Jokes on fat men, women, kids Jokes about nerds Jokes about people from Iowa, Jokes about rednecks Any kid joke

I like Den Chiefs too but with a full Boy Scout program asking a Boy Scout to almost double his scouting time is hard. In addition to our weekly troop meetings we usually have two - four events a month. Now ask the scout to attend a cub scout den meeting where his dad and younger brother don't attend and its near impossible. What I would like is a dedicated recruitment chair. Ll these idea are good one but the troop and committee must dedicate resources for planning and visits. I also think a POR could easily be carved out for a youth position as a troop recruiter. Not a den chief that would pin the scout down to every single den and pack but a scout who arranges and visits multiple packs. The adult recruiter could attend and discuss dues and other adult interest while the boy scout troop recruiter does the bit with the boys. Again this is a concept, not our actual program.

Back to your original Questions "Do you see a problem with this or am I the only one? " YES BIG time, I think others have responded with an overly pragmatic approach. A group of scouts all still at Tenderfoot after three years is a symptom of a troop with leadership problems. "If they are not going to be able to advance then why would I feed the troop? That's like setting them up for failure..." (rant) Although I see this notion a lot I cringe when parents represent their cub scouts as little rewards for the unit. Scouts are a lot of work and new scouts are the biggest work of all. Don't feed a troop; pick a unit that you like. That said, I believe you should consider other troops whose program balance better matches your interpretation of scouting. If you move out of this troop your kids will adjust. Scouts are a pretty similar bunch especially within the same council and district. Why stay in a bad unit? Families come by and and shop our troop often enough. Some sign-up, others keep on walking. Reason given, range from our religious aspect in not tune with what they are looking for, or our camping is not what they want. But most often its the advancement aspect. So if you want your scout to advance at a rate that is not in line with the unit's move on. The Crabby scoutmaster will likely bad mouth you in once breath and in the next tell people he is glad to see those slackers are out of his unit.

We don't even have a place to do pull-ups. In the past we have rigged poles across trees but these haven't been the best. Either the poles are too thick for the tenderfoot's hands or scout in charge of lashing up the pole didn't do the best job and scout stays put while pole comes down. We just look for improvement somewhere. A little faster, a little longer jump. He doesn't have to show an across the board improvement in each category. It is highly unlikely that we hold up an active scout for three years at tenderfoot over this requirement. We would find away to get him through this. Either bird dog him at every meeting or ask his parents to work with him.

I think the OBGYN has exposed festering sore that is both painful and embarrassing to those with intimate knowledge of the situation. Is there no treatment?

Put me in the group to trash can EDGE. For all of the above reasons: scouts don't learn this way, it sounds like a two day course offered near an airport hotel Its academic learning theory. Its not even management or leadership doctrine. Its a poor substitute for real leadership development which comes from time, experience and skill development. The teaching of EDGE does not and will not accelerate the development of the youth. For many years we have sent scouts to NYLT to learn the EDGE teaching theory. Not one has brought this back and used it successfully. EDGE can only be categorized a marketing program designed to convince BSA consumers that the program offers an accelerated fast-track method for leadership. That within BSA its not camping, the patrol method or the program itself that does the development but a Codified route memorization program called EDGE that pops out future CEO's and Congressmen.

It was brought up in the Dismissed scoutmaster thread that the SM should be at the committee meeting. I agree, in fact too often when the SM is not there the committee goes off on tangents and takes a vote or makes a decision about a troop issue without input from any of the SM's. But the lure of having a parent's (er committee) meeting while the kids are being attended to by the SM is just too tempting. The parents get together and a few vocal ones will want a campout date changed or some other thing. The other indifferent parents go along with this and then the SM has to come back in at a later date and re-evaluate or expalin why the change is not good. Most of this can be avoided if the SM is present at the Committee meeting. Does you committee meet on a separate night from the troop? Are the SM(s) present at these committee meetings?

Well its sounds like any shortcomings you may have had in being new Scoutmasters would have been compensated by drive, enthusiasm and organization. Your commitment to learn the craft of being a SM and to do right by the troopis to be commended. I would sure appreciate someone like you in my troop. I am sympathetic to your mistreatment and hope that you will find a way to continue to serve the scouts in your troop. PS I sure would be interested to find out any explanation your committee gives you.

We still do our PLC planning that way. We come in look at the next few campouts and service projects and the souts are asked what do we need to do to prepare our troop for these events. The SPL starts throwing out ideas and the rest jump in. The Program features gets down into specific details of older scout do this and the games that can be played at each meeting. We don't use that level of the material, its looks a bit dated but we get stuck with what patrol game to do or when there is no campout that month.

Allow me to be clear. I want to offer to the scouts in our unit the opportunity to wear an emblem that identifies their charter. Shortridge you said "wear a temporary patch (right side pocket)." OK, What's does temporary mean? Can I have them sew it on?

If we place an emblem on the pocket where the temporary patch goes won't we be questioned if all our uniforms have it over the course of a 2-3 years? Would the uniform cops arrest our Eagles just as mom is about to pin him?