Thomas54

We are down to 24 scouts. Nearly all are Life scouts. The 3 youngest are in 7th grade. Nearly all are in High School. We have been good at retaining the scouts just very poor at recruiting. We peaked at about 40 scouts in 2007. We lost 5-6 scouts almost immediately when the economy turned bad. This was mainly from relocations. We have been putting out about 3 eagles a year, so our attrition is likely on par with other troops. However, no cross overs from the pack for three years straight. Our pack is huge but as I have mentioned before in these forums the Webelos parents come and see us and then decide not to join. The first year "our program was too advanced" They did not want to go out of state for summer camp. The next year, we weren't eagle focused enough. They wanted their sons to eagle by 13. Last year it was to disorganized at the meeting. (The mom was right on that night, SPL was not prepared) Other stray scouts have come through but our ski trips, trips to Washington DC, and wilderness canoe trips all look too advanced or too expensive. Or all of the above. Anyway, the age gap is now so big that when a 5th grade mom comes in and sees a bunch of six foot "boys" she decides right then and there that this is too old for her son. Sorry, to keep writing about this but it weighs heavy on my mind. If the trend continues we will be down to less than 10 scouts in two years.

Well I made it through part 1 & 2. Not sure I'll ever finish part 3. I believe part 3 is on the public funding of the Boy Scouts. It's offense to listen to, many F-bombs throughout.

So really, the actual activity matters less than the structure. So a sheep sheering club that practices together and competes will be just as good at character development as ROTC.

Recently I was with a bunch of Civil war re-enactors. The Sargent Major talked to us about how he ran his program for boys between the ages of 14-20+. That the structure required by these events plus his dedication to the program really developed strong character within the boys. He claimed to have been given lots of compliments from parents about how their sons attitude/character had improved after being in his program. Two weeks ago I was talking to my sons wrestling coach and he said; give his program time and watch how much confidence my son will gain from the structure of his program. He claimed to have seen this many times how the wrestling program developed confidence in boys. BSA, touts its self as a character building program, but so do many others. I dont really want to debate which is of these or others is the better program. My question: Is it structure that above all that boys need? Is it the common group sharing of experiences with team members that does it? Is it the dedication os adult paid/volunteers and their character influence that mentors the boys? What comprising a good character development program for boys?

I like what someone said last week. What are the expectation of the scoutmaster "that he have trailer hitch".

I have never had to define nominal, No one has ever asked. I had a scout come to me looking to provide cover from his parents who just wanted to buy his materials. I explained to the scout how leadership is not just putting a work detail together, that it involves goals and plan setting. He had planned to raise $400 at a car wash and he missed that goal. He had to plan another fund raiser. This time he sold pies. He eventually got there and I believe the journey was beneficial to him. I have mentioned this before that we are getting our butts kicked in recruiting by the troop ten miles away. The mom/dad donation I believe is a contributing factor but not the only reason. As Bev said, the scouts and parents in our troop have accepted that the scouts have to raise the bulk of the money themselves. I got a slight push back from one mom about a year ago otherwise ok. Another question is who checks? The scout raises or gets the money donated, but we don't run it through the troop bank account. The scout gets it. Sometimes I'll attend a car wash or a work day at an eagle project but I am not doing an audit on his funds and cost. Mom and dad could be footing 50% of the bill. It's up the scout.

I had a conversation with the SM from the troop chartered about 10 miles away. We compete for the same Webelos from about 3 packs. They have been kicking our butts. Anyway! The SM said that they allow the parents to fund the entire Eagle project from their checkbook. No Fundraising required by the scout. He said they checked with council and council had no problem with it. I tell him that our guideline is that mom and dad can make only a nominal contribution (which we have never had to define) but that the scouts have to raise the money themselves. He said that method takes too long. It's easier to get to eagle in that troop because fundraising can add two - three months to a $500+ eagle project. Lately a Saturday car wash lasting about 6 hours only yields about $400.

We have fallen into the following: One is a buddy meal system. This is usually used on backpacking trips and canoe trips. Here two scouts get together to plan and cook their meals. The SM's approve the plan but beyond that there is no troop involvement. The boys arrange to buy the food themselves and agree to settle the cost. The campout fee does not reimburse the scout for their meal purchases. So if they have steaks on the list OK. Let them work out it with mom. Most parents seem to prefer this and will spend more knowing that its for their boy and his good friend. The second method works as follows. Let say their are four meals to be cooked on a campout two breakfasts a lunch and a dinner. These get divided up into one patrol takes a meal and cooks for the whole troop. The SM's approve the plan assist with the quantities and establish the budget. The PL is responsible for the purchasing list, the cooking and cleaning. The gru master is reimbursed for the food. We have three patrols so the adult patrol takes a meal too. This weekend the Adults are doing a breakfast. Most of the time the adults try and take the easiest meal. These meals plans work for us. Because the adults will be eating at every meal the plans are pushed to be more than just hot dogs. Knowing that they only have to do one meal the scouts seem to muster up the where-with-all to clean the pots for one meal. The buddy meal plan works because there is no hiding and its either you or him that has to cook or clean. Two guys are more likely to work this out than 6-7. Like I said this works for us.

As a scoutmaster I think of Webelos as Cub Scouts and our new cross overs (New Scout patrol) as Mini Boy Scouts. We have active 9th-10th-11th graders in our program. A 5th grader and most certainly a 4th grader is not at the same level. The programs are very age specific just follow the program. She should not elevate the Boy Scout program above what it is. It's sleeping in a tent without mom or dad and learning some cooking and cleaning skills. Besides, we teach these skills. Yea there is canoeing and hiking and bigger and father away camps but these age appropriate too.

Are you in a position, both professionally and personally to dedicate 10 - 20hrs per week to Boy Scouts?

Great park. The wife, kids and I did three nights there last year. Our troop is headed there in March. The park is unusual for Florida with many short stocky hills. The hikes are rugged but manageable. Not sure where you are staying at but the main campsite has a majestic overlook of the river valley below. The Apalachicola is big river that runs right next to the park. Will your scout fish, if so there should be some good fishing along the shore. Mainly catfish but scouts enjoy catching fish no matter the type. The tree that the park is named after, Torreya can be easily identified. They are the trees protected with a fence around them. The other concern is that no hammocks are allowed in the park and nothing can be hung from any tree. At each campsite there will be a nearby wood supply of split logs which is nice for the camper and prevents campers from damaging the trees. Bring a $10 to contribute to the wood fund.

We are men/women of our times. Watch an old show, Ozzie and Harriet for example. The father was defined as a formal relationship. The man who wore a tie and was consulted on matters of Life. He was distant. He was the stereotypical if not the ideal man of his time. Now if you have had the opportunity to see the recent Pixar movie "Despicable Me" you will see a somewhat stereotypical man of his time. The man starts out as evil but grows into a father figure for three orphan girls. When one of the girls is cheated at a carnival side show, the father blast the booth into pieces with his ray gun. (helicopter parent) The man becomes more of a pal-friend, as he gets his face painted along with the girls. He is manipulated by the children when they want to go to dance class but he has work to do. The priorities of the children come first. The point is that Mr Nelson's style would not work in today's environment. Nor would "Despicable Me"'s modern man approach have worked in the 1950's. They are men of their times. The argument could be made that "leaders are Leaders no matter the time". Perhaps this is true. But styles, expectation and approaches evolve and even the best leader of his time may not make the conversion to another era.

Our PLC dedicates the first Meeting night of each month to a PLC meeting. The troop does not meet that night only the PLC. The committee is supposed to meet the week after to learn and discuss what the scouts voted on at the PLC. The PLC usually takes over an hour to get through all the stuff. I sit in on the meeting and offer advice and assist the SPL in maintaining order. Many scouts just are not ready to take leadership seriously. Bright boys who have been in the program for years and have attended NYLT will allow or even worse encourage the discussion to drift into computer gaming or other issues. So I nudge it back to our agenda. Our program which the troop selected at our annual planning meeting is pretty advanced. Given a chance to camp at a county park and work on scout skills or travel 180 miles to an old fort or the Ocean, the scouts will pick the greater of the two adventures. Hence the PLC is responsible for setting up the program and managing the calendar. It's real work.

I need a link to this and safe swim defense. I have taken both before but can't Google my way into finding these on line courses.

Some thoughts light weight stool climbing rope / gear (they may not use it as it was intended but cool to have) Personal tent or hammock Water purifier Backpacker's stove ebooks Survival books where something went wrong, think Everest into thin air or the guy with the stuck hand who had to cut his own hand off.

Are we saying the oil embargo in 1973 killed this camp? Is that why attendance dropped? It would be nice if there was an announcement on what was going to be done with the money from the property sale and the reduction in operating expense. My guess it will go into the general fund never to be seen again. Yea a roof or two will get fixed but otherwise the council will not replace this asset once sold. The money will be more or less treated as revenue.

I have a First Class Scout who has not been showing up to meetings lately. I want to write his mom and see if there is anything we can do. But there is background. The mom and dad had a bitter divorce while the boy was in Cubs. Nearly all communications are still through the courts. I know the dad does not support scouts because whenever there is a scout event on "his" weekend the scout does not show up. I have heard from the mom that the step-mom and dad have tried to encourage the scout to quit scouting. The mom has gone on every campout and summer camp that her boy has gone on. At times she can be over barring. For example at every summer camp meal she ate with her boy. What I suspect is happening is that when it's "her" weekend she does not want the scout to be away from her for a multitude of reasons. One she wants to spend the limited time she has with her son and two its a "I am better parent then you" type of situation by spending quality time with the son. I also suspect that the scout and mom are at a point where mom really shouldn't be nor wants to be camping at every campout. So rather then face that mom is still hovering well into the boys middle school years, it's easier for both just to drop scouting. Of course maybe the scout really just has had enough of scouting. Anyway I want to write the mom and am looking for thoughtful words that will enocourge the scout to stay in scouting or perhaps return when they are both ready. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

And We are doing all the other things.

I spoke to the District Commissioner. He is going to switch the UC and replace him with a scouter who will serve both units. Thanks

At the PLC last night we got around to discussing one of the up-coming camp outs. It's a canoe trip that will last 3 nights on the water. The SPL and the Scribe both said they won't be going on this trip. When I pushed them on why, they said they couldn't hold it in for that long. I asked if they had ever crapped in the woods. They both said no. Both plan to get through scouting without doing it like a bear. How do I go about teaching this particular pratice?

Some of the posters asked if we are involved with the Pack. That answer is yes. Every year we schedule an a outing for the Webelos and then go the the pack meetings a couple of times to discuss it. But while this guy was Cubmaster he played games with us. We would send over a possible date in September for a February Webelos campout and he would not respond even after emails and calls. Finally in January he would tells us they have another event scheduled for that weekend. It would then be too late for us to change the date. He played dirty tricks as a CM and now plays the same way as a UC. It's easy to attack our troop-pack relationship, "you don't... reach out the pack enough, have enough den chiefs, aren't approachable enough". Well we do what we can. We have den chiefs and hold pack/troop events. The thing is the bond was broken when this guy became CM and the momentum continues to flow to the other troop. Siblings, friends or neighbors go to the other troop which just fuels the fire for more scouts to go there. Add to this that the UC is at every pack meeting with scouts from the other unit. A lot of good pack-troop relations are based on a shared community as described above. Scouters, both adult and youth forge bonds in one unit that continue and extend both ways between the units. I thought once this guy exited as the CM we could really focus on restoring the bond. Then I find out that he got himself UC post to the unit and is in there every chance he can get. I'll talk to the District Commissioner. Our CO doesn't really want to get into this. (This message has been edited by Thomas54)

So the Cubmaster from our charter's pack goes to a different troop when is son crosses over. While his was a Webelos he interviewed me for our troop and all he wanted to know was how soon could his son could get eagle. OK so our troop isn't match. Then they guy becomes a unit commissioner for the Pack but not for our troop (separate main meeting places for the two units). He spends the next two years steering scouts into his sons troop. Now he has Den chiefs from the other troop and is openly recruiting from our charter's pack into his son's troop which is from another charter. Are unit commissioners suppose to be recruiting from units they serve into their home unit?

We pretty much let the scouts pick the trips. Left to decide themselves they pick the biggest most adventurous trips (read expensive). They seek adventure. When asked about troop meetings, they crave structure and discipline especially in others. However these same scouts are the one who interrupt the speaker the most likely play and wrestle then to work on patrol boxes or patrol flags. I agree with the uniform as Bev mentioned. The scouts would likely change it to a mush more outdoor oriented uniform with out all the Christmas tree nonsense on it now.

double post(This message has been edited by Thomas54)

"Does that mean the new patrols are really leftovers?" To Bears you all look like leftovers.