Tampa Turtle

At my old Pack (thankfully just as I was leaving) there was a lot of conflict on a pack campout. We had a Husband who was a Webelos II den leader and his wife was another. (they had twins and split them up). Apparently hubbie had just ended an affair with the lady Webelos I leader and the wife didn't expect her to show up. Got pretty ugly.

Welcome to the campfire!

If you do have a mixed group of differing abilities try to rotate the activities so everyone has a fighting chance to be success now and then. Also I have seen dens that did a lot of sports and they never seemed to have long scouting "legs"; boys dropped out to join "real sports".

I talked with my 12 year old slip of a First Class, 90 pounds dripping wet, who has racked 60 miles in less than a year about this discussion. He thought it was silly--Boy Scouts should hike. He said if you take the Camping, Hiking, Cooking out of scouting it was just like his elementry school program working on robotics, or reading or whatever afterschool.

My kids are more fit and athletic than me and to keep up with them I have had to get in shape and more physical. So I, and many of my peers, seem wimpier. So I say thank God for scouts! The comment about having raised a generation is correct in that we have lost a generation of campers. Folks getting soft and all that. Was that one of reasons Baden-Powell (and others) started the scout movement? On the whole the boys (in the collective sense) seem less independent but we feed them programmed activities and less free-time. My sons seem to be contrary to that trend. So again, thank God for scouts. I think the pressure on them, at least in middles school, and the emphasis in reading in Elementary is much, much harder than when I was in school in the 60's and 70's. They seem really stressed out at an early age. So I hate it when I see BSA starting to "teach to the test" in merit badges. I talked to the wise one (my wife) last night on the evening walk. She does Sunday school programming and we like to compare notes. She thinks the BSA Risk Management issue is like when she was a programmer and you tried to boost word recognition in a speech recognizer from 98% to 100%...it was HUGELY expensive to close that gap and it usually was not practicable. So trying to remove almost all risk starts to get a bit ridiculous. None of us want our boys to get really hurt...

OGE, Ah yes but where are they now? Perhaps the elders were right.

Eagle92, I will now step up on the soapbox. Q: Are we raising a generation of wimps? A: Yes. But the ADA issue is a separate one if overlapping one. My son has multiple disabilities and he fights very hard, very courageously to overcome many tasks all day long. But yeah he is entitled to extra time, too. He is already starting from an inequality...but we do require him to TRY. Yeah I would have an issue with a student who wouldn't even try. But...oh yeah...even knowing all the problems he has it is very frustrating as a parent...when is it a legitimate problem and when is it a typical teen gaming the situation. Plenty of times we have done the "tough it out" approach and, truth be told, looking back I was being pretty cruel. Buy yes not even trying--that is not right. I see this with many, many scouts. They will not even try unless they are guaranteed success. So we have the general cultural stuff -like the new Eagle guidelines (which I ran by some mom's last night--the didn't believe I was serious) and the very difficult questions of reasonable accommodation under the ADA. I think they may have one thing in common and it is us. And it has applications for scouting. ADA accommodations were made into law partially because folks were just too lazy to get to know a person and make a reasonable accommodation. Had to get all lawyered up because it is so much easier to do the same thing over and over. Wheelchairs--I remember all the folks who couldn't be bothered with wheelchair ramps before ADA. BSA Safety over-regulation is because some adults are too lazy to adequately supervise boys entrusted with their care and some got hurt. Could got to know them, show how to do things safely and keep an eye on things. Some didn't and we all pay. BSA is, if they think this is REALLY an issue, didn't think to make an honest effort on some more safety training just issue some CYA rules. Lazy again. I will get down now.

WOW. I did 10 miles on the beach and I though my hip joints were gonna rip out of my sockets. Made the 10 miles on hills a bit easier by comparison. The topless sunbather was a highlight for some the older boys, the dead seagull for the younger ones. I kept my eyes averted from anything unholy--setting the good example and all.

I agree, I think it would have to be a CO issue. I would like to know BSA's position on this. Seems pretty stupid from the Troop-recruiting wise at least-disrespecting the lady leader of prospective scouts. Why not have any ladies campout slight apart?

Agree have them read it AND then read again with their boy.

I'm pretty shocked on the response on this one. Maybe my Troop is better than I thought. Gee if a broken down old Turtle can do it most boys can. We only prohibit newbies.

LisaBob, I used to teach too, and learned to turn away Graduate Students with "I will be glad to meet with you provided you write a note about what you want to discuss and schedule a time"--got rid of 50% of them! Lazy little buggers,

rldavis, I have to agree with Lisa Bob, doing track work is boring, boring, boring. You can get (some) youth into a Troop hiking culture but gotta come up with more interesting trips. I would think a Philmont crew would have a more enjoyable time if they got the Hiking and/or Backpacking MB before the trip. And a track is not really a challenge; there are no different surface conditions, elevation changes, etc. Why not do a treadmill at the Y then? How is that "prepping"? There are lots of tips on this forum and online on making interesting Hikes. Do a "Zombie Apocalypse Hike*", a "Survivor Man" Hike with stations on Scoutcraft. Make up Hiking awards, do a Scout Miles Walked board. Come on Texas! Florida is just as screwed up, hot, paved, and flat and we can do it! Where is your "Alamo Spirit"*? *Just made that up. Have the boys plan it. You do have the boys planning the hikes don't you? **My mom is from Hawaii and I know they have "Aloha Spirit".

Fabs5342, You can fight it but it is partially your responsibility. I have lost many opportunities because I failed to read the find print or really, really verify something, or be extra conservative in meeting requirements. So it is a life lesson. Life Scout, a real experienced Life Scout, is something to be proud of. I think Eagle is over-rated. Give me a man who knows how to tie some practical knots and make a proper fire without lighter fluid. My advice is IF you appeal do not get all hung up in a blame game at others or yourself. Learn from it, be glad of your scouting career, and move on. Maybe years from now you can be a Life to Eagle counselor--either way it goes you know the importance of details. If I may permit a story. I am a Diabetic and have to be very, very careful of what I eat. I have been burned many times by folks on the carbohydrate content of meals and gotten sick on campouts. So now I do not trust anyone with something so important--I always bring some backup food just in case. This saved me at Summer Camp when I requested special accommodation before hand, was told by both Camp Director and Dining Hall Director that was no problem, and was told on how to get "the Diabetic Meal" on the introductory day. First day in the Dining Hall I go to the special line, get to the front, and am told "we don't do that". There was no meal and they would not help me. But I had brought a back up. Preparing yourself to meet all those deadlines and requirements are important. I missed going to the college of my choice because while I was ready to get the application mailed off I forgot to get a form notarized and I was out of time. I missed it the deadline and their were no appeals. It was a tough lesson. (On the bright side, the school I went to --solely on the basis of a later deadline--I met the future Mrs Turtle and got a very good education)

We have tried to recruit some "Mountain Women" as ASM's and have had some come out for canoe and kayak instruction (some are VERY accomplished and their family trips are much more ambitious then some High Adventure ones). All have refused. These are reasons I got: (1) They want their boy to be in a male environment. They are around women all the time during the week. (2) We have enough Dad's. (3) They are already doing important support roles in the Troop (Troopmaster, Treasurer, CC) and they feel they are more important there. (4) After the 1st year they are more at a point where they might want to jump in after getting a feel for the place. But now they find they enjoy getting away from there boy for a while. (5) They like being "retired" from Scouts (most candidates are former Den Leaders) (6) The other wives feel weird about another woman being around their husband all weekend when they get left home. (Oh yeah that got weird) (7) Their son's begged them "no!"

I am "earning" the Hiking MB along with the boys. 20 miles can be pretty rough--our Troop has done some night-day hikes for the 20 so that at least half is done when it is cool. Stop for breakfast--and your almost half done! We did an urban/history hike and it was the least popular of all the hikes (though the boys learned something). Apparently the heat and pavement was a lot tougher, and the constant stopping when crossing traffic. I think it was good to show the boys they could do it, for example after Hurricanes you sometimes do a lot of walking when roads are messed up and gas is short. I am a big walker everyday and walk all over town but would much prefer a walk in the woods. IMHO a nature hike will excite the boys more.

While I did like some of the cheekiness of the lad's tone and am aware of the slippery slope that is wearing the uniform and BSA policy it was an EXCELLENT example of Citizenship in the Community. It was exactly what it was all about. How many times I have seen some scout checking in at a City Council meeting, sitting there like a log at a Disney show, and expected to get checked off for the MB. Seems like CiC MB becoming just another perfunctory step in the rush to Eagle. Now I would challenge him to back up his opinion with facts and preface his remarks with "as an individual not a member of BSA" or something like that. You know the purpose of the MB is to (1)create a good citizen and (2) get a boy turned on to something he might not otherwise be exposed to. He participated and was passionate. So job well done.

We have had boys do parts of that one at more than one trip. So it is not all or nothing.

Oops I meant peek. Not that this discourse is not a peak experience.

You are a better man than I Gunga Din. I used to be on a number of non-profit Boards and once ran one. I got no more patience for the thing. It is always bad when folks start ignoring prudent cost/benefit. You were confusing logic with the professionals' digs.

Moose, I agree.

Gee I wonder if someone emailed those guidelines to Dremel (evil laugh)...

We got at least 10 boys banging away at the Hiking Merit Badge. Pretty popular. We also had a 14 year old Eagle who did all the old Eagle MB requirements including Mile Swim just to show off old school style to his dad.

I see groups promote themselves as inclusive from time to time just as some groups promote exclusivity. Some groups I have seen in the last week: The Moose Lodge. A very liberal church. A special needs (disability) ministry in a very conservative church. A local Civic association. So the word itself isn't bad or '90s it is the issue of folks wanting to impose inclusiveness on groups that want to stay exclusive. Sometimes that is OK and sometimes it is not.

Hawkins, With your well behaved kids I hope you know how lucky you got it!