Tampa Turtle

Yeah I have some trepidation on how to handle it. When we had the "tempest in a teapot" over the gay patrol name I got hammered by both sides no matter what I did.

Basement My mom and son were lefties! When I worked in a factory I often felt sorry for lefties in that the safety switches always seemed most convenient to righties as you were sucked into the crushing machine... I think lefties are great for genetic diversity. Maybe y'all will save us from the Alien invader. Actually my son is ambidextrous with a (practice) sword and wins a lot of mock battles by switching sides during a match. Seems stronger with the right but writes and has fine motor control with the left. When my mom was in Catholic school the nuns wacked her left "devils" hand when she wrote with it. Now back to our regularly scheduled Gays in Scouting Program...

As a former active Catholic who worked closely with a dozen or so priests over the years--the gay priests are there! Nuns too. I assume they are caste or try to be just as the hetero priests are. And yes they do slip up time to time and do not get kicked out though they usually get disciplined. It is just that they are not openly gay or practicing gay. I think the danger for "the religious" is the loneliness without a family as they age hence the occasional relationships between two folks.

Last memorial day we did a (last minute)scratch color guard for a event at an Assisted Living facility for WWII to Vietnam era vets. Most of the folks were 70-90 and really enjoyed seeing the boys. Some of the ladies cried thinking of their own sons, now grown, who were once scouts. We created a little confusion in that we had a couple Girl Scouts help us and so they all just assumed that Boy Scouts had girls now. I think they appreciated it because while having Cub Scouts do it is cute as heck they liked being remembered by teenagers taking time on a weekend. Some of those folks will not be around next memorial day. So yeah it was relevant. The other day I was at a public event and a number of our scouts were there (in plain clothes). Tables and chairs needed to be set up and some of the adults were setting the room up. A 14 year old PL at or troop rounded up the other scouts in the room, told the adults "we got this", and set the room up in 5 minutes. No one told them--they just did it. Great example of leadership.

That is beyond ticky tacky. Our Troop has its own norms. We want the boys to have their watch on(so they show up on time), a pen (so they can take notes and get sign offs), and their book (so we can review things without Troopmaster). What if they do not have them? Do we stop their BOR? No they get a lecture! Watch--you need to know the time, not to rely on others because scouts are expected to be punctual. Pen--Be prepared! We often have a discussion of the leaders preferred instruments (Space Pen, I am an old school pencil man myself) Book--So they know where they are, so they can meet with their PL on what they need to work on. We talk (as they move up in rank) on how it is like a job interview. Sometimes boys will tell us--I use my phone for the time, or to take notes. One showed us the notes from that Troop meeting! One said he lost his book but pulled out a dog earred Troopmaster record. But we know that is our norm and we are not gonna bust them for it. Did the boy treat the BOR seriously in the mind of a boy? We are serious about rank, POR, and patrol patches because they affect how they function in the Troop. Even then we may do the BOR and tell them we will do the final sign off when they appear with the proper corrections. Usually it gets fixed that night.

I agree with Basement. I knew by 4th grade I REALLY liked girls enough to know I would have to give up any dreams of being Catholic Priest. I just assumed most gay guys were just that....especially considering how much stuff they had to put up with back then. I wouldn't be surprised if someday they discover it is a bit like left handedness, a gene that gets switched from DC to AC during pregnancy.

I agree with Skip. Tenting is usually easily accommodated. We have a few boys who sleep as "singletons" in hammocks or backpacking tents because they want more privacy. We had a boy leave a tent and sleep on a picnic table over some silly issue. They adapt. I read the NYT editorial and they made a good point. BSA throws the local CO's to the wolves with a local option--can you imagine the national pressure on a single church if they handle it badly?

I have a similar question. Son #2 (almost Star) is almost done with it and wants to know if he should just wait until 2014 to finish it so it counts as Eagle.

I know some Eagles who are bad apples but the majority seem like pretty good guys. We have elevated the Eagle rank to such an exalted rank that it is becoming unlikely folks are gonna live up to all of it.

In my (bible belt) college I had a gay roommate. Best one ever. Occasionally folks misconstrued our relationship but I didn't care. We slept in the same room and occasionally had heart-to-hearts on the travails on romance. I told him I was uncomfortable changing around him and we worked that out. Showered separate times as well. I think gay boy-straight boy tent buddies situations exist now and the boys accept it or switch as they see fit. Boys switch for other reasons--new friends, smuggled electronics, gas.

We entered a rip in the time-space continuum prior to Tampa Bay winning the Super Bowl 10 years ago. Explains a lot really.

We had our COH last night and the small sampling of parents I discussed the issue with could not care less. Greater concern was over a poor flag ceremony.

By Star it should get a bit tougher. We send out a list so the boys know whats up. We have let boys come around for another try on BOR night and have seen them scrambling in the patrol closet for shirts and pants, borrowing belts, socks, and pens from other boys, and stapling on patches. We have given boys a needle and thread and no matter how ragged he does we count it. It is rarely a problem with our younger guys but usually the 14 and 15 year olds going for Star and Life. They also seem to work at looking ragged. Which patch? I would want: Rank Patrol (losing that battle--though we have given rewards to boys with the correct one) POR

We just had our COH tuesday night. I brought this up in conversation with a half a dozen parents and no one I talked to could care less--beyond thinking its about time. I was surprised. More expressed concern about the sloppy flag ceremony. No discussion from the boys--I do not think most of them know of it.

For my sons: The ability of boys to do things for themselves and others. Sons pack for their own trips. Maintain Troop gear and load trailer. to train them in scoutcraft Can start fires many different ways including fire-bow. Knows and uses different knots. Can identify trees, plants,and critters on hikes and backpacking. patriotism I do not know how many flag ceremonies, church meetings, and civic occasions I have had to drive my boys to because they really, really wanted to be in the color guard. self-reliance I know my sons (one more than another) can plan, pack, and carry his load on a trip without me being there. He tracks his own achievements and pursues sign offs, etc. I have less and less to do... kindred virtues Yeah times change. If you mean kindness...they do a lot of serving the homeless at our local soup kitchen because they think it is fun and the right thing to do. using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. Yeah I wish they did more scoutcraft and there were less bureaucracy but the program still works if you work it. For my sons it has remained a central activity for them.

Thank You Terry, for this sight as well as your well reasoned insight. Ha ha.

So what things will I do differently as a scout leader? I suppose I will need to crack down on anti-gay comments more--take the approach on race and faith differences. I am pretty sure we have a few gay Eagles; they have made a few quiet comments from time to time--we all just looked the other way. I think we may lose a couple families. We had a patrol name blow up a few years ago over a "gay sounding" name. It was the boys picks and I submitted it forward and all hell broke loose. I figured they could accept the consequences...now?

So what things will I do differently as a scout leader? I suppose I will need to crack down on anti-gay comments more--take the approach on race and faith differences. I am pretty sure we have a few gay Eagles; they have made a few quiet comments from time to time--we all just looked the other way. I think we may lose a couple families. We had a patrol name blow up a few years ago over a "gay sounding" name. It was the boys picks and I submitted it forward and all hell broke loose. I figured they could accept the consequences...now?

I do not think the UMC will pull units over this as they have been becoming quite "gay friendly" in the U.S.; I think only the conservative overseas wing of the UMC kept out some very gay-friendly planks at the (Global) General Conference last year in Tampa. However this the OFFICIAL UMC position ------------- Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual Orientation 162 J) Equal Rights Regardless of Sexual OrientationCertain basic human rights and civil liberties are due all persons. We are committed to supporting those rights and liberties for all persons, regardless of sexual orientation. We see a clear issue of simple justice in protecting the rightful claims where people have shared material resources, pensions, guardian relationships, mutual powers of attorney, and other such lawful claims typically attendant to contractual relationships that involve shared contributions, responsibilities, and liabilities, and equal protection before the law. Moreover, we support efforts to stop violence and other forms of coercion against all persons, regardless of sexual orientation. From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2012. Copyright 2012 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission. YET Regarding clergy 304.3 While persons set apart by the Church for ordained ministry are subject to all the frailties of the human condition and the pressures of society, they are required to maintain the highest standards of holy living in the world. The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.2 1. "Self-avowed practicing homosexual" is understood to mean that a person openly acknowledges to a bishop, district superintendent, district committee of ordained ministry, board of ordained ministry, or clergy session that the person is a practicing homosexual. See Judicial Council Decisions 702, 708, 722, 725, 764, 844, 984. 2. See Judicial Council Decisions 984, 985. 341.6 Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches. Regarding the General Council on Finance and Administration 806.9 [The General Council on Finance and Administration] shall be responsible for ensuring that no board, agency, committee, commission, or council shall give United Methodist funds to any gay caucus or group, or otherwise use such funds to promote the acceptance of homosexuality or violate the expressed commitment of The United Methodist Church "not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends" ( 161.F). The council shall have the right to stop such expenditures.19 This restriction shall not limit the Churchs ministry in response to the HIV epidemic. 19. See Judicial Council Decisions 491, 597. (From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church - 2008. Copyright 2008 by The United Methodist Publishing House. Used by permission.) -------------------------- So I do not see why the UMC would walk. But the church is conflicted. Accept individuals and be tolerant. Neither promote nor condemn. Troop Leaders are not "appointed leaders" so there is a loophole there. YPT issues and liability remain contentious issues. The UMC is a very big tent denomination so local option makes sense.

I note that the United Methodist Church will be giving re-charter instructions AFTER the decision so that could be a bell-weather. I know folks on both sides of that discussion and the "perversion files" fall out did considerable damage. I have mixed feelings about openly gay leaders but think it is fair to not discriminate against boys. I do not like dealing with boys and heterosexuality as it is! (Had to crack down on the older boys instructing the younger ones on proper "fapping" technique. Were shocked I knew what the word meant--saw it on my word-a-day Urban dictionary someone gave me at work) Does anyone know what the LDS or Catholics are saying?

I wonder how CO units will identify themselves? Pro-gay or anti-gay? Or will parents just ask around. Could add a new component to "Troop shopping".

I wonder how this will affect the discussion between BSA and the (national) United Methodist Church on the recharter issue. Will the UMC just push this down to each local church? I know of two UMC churches in my neck of the woods and I think one would be OK with gay leaders and the others not.

What about girls?`

Well, assuming that is true, that is a little bomb-shell. From my casual conversations at my Troop I do not think a lot of the Scouters and Scouts care that much. A few folks will not like it...but will they walk?

Make it a "Best" one!