Tampa Turtle

Thats cool.

Maybe the occasional finger amputation, tent on fire, or old school latrine will cull some out.

I think Son#1 was not happy when Son#2 joined the Troop. And when Son#2 was his SPL.

If you find an engineer to talk about the bridge that could be cool too.

Now on need to go in my Wayback Machine to 1915 and talk B.P. out of that Cubbing idea. I always thought a lot of the boys liked scouting to GET AWAY from their family a weekend a month! LOL

I am hoping 'Family Scouting' was just a poorly chosen phrase then a program change like when I said "Quality Control" and stepped on a land-mine.

I have heard some pretty good and/or damning feedback at some BOR's. It really depends on the boy as much as how the adults conduct themselves.

What is Rose and Thorns if not an evaluation? Usually done right before the final campsite cleanup sweep before departure. And the PLC does a different one a few days later. I think there one question is "should we do this again?". Of course the adults used to do an online or conference call 'After Action Report' over stuff we had concerns with (signs of bullying, campsite reservation, etc etc). The Rose and Thorns is very similar to the "Hot Wash" we used to use in Emergency Operations. The later more formal thoughts tend to miss out of the emotional gripes and frustrations right after the event. We did have a SPL (whose dad was a corporate trainer and was trying to run the troop via fiat) attempt some overly complicated evaluation process that just bored and confused the boys. At one points I heard the words "Sigma Six" and I wanted to cry. He also tried a kind of "black marble/white marble" system to ration pizza slices at a meeting which got overly complicated and most resulted in marble missiles and loose marbles all over the church room we were using. I chalk that us to a noble if failed experiment. We were soon back to line up by rank/age/height/patrol/name or reverse order. As part of my job (now) as a community planner I have had to lead lots of public meetings, charettes, visioning exercises etc etc. I gotta a lot of tools if I was to use them. But stuff like 'Rose and Thorns' keeps to the KISS principle for boys.

My experience is the boys do not respond well to an adult facilitator --it tends to shut down real dialogue. Ideally an older boy who is respected can offer suggestions. But I think it is more important that they get talking and they know what is going on anyway. We let some adults comment at the end but they have to keep it as brief as the boys. Usually the SPl or SM get the last work. I would accept weather as a thorn. We once camped on the edge of a growing hurricane (it was an unexpected turn and we were a bit stranded). The weather was hell but one lad used it as a Rose: "The wind blew away some tents but also those dang mosquitoes!"

I have seen tri-colored Eagle Scout shoulder loops that I was told they got from their counsel store.

I think we picked up Rose and Thorns from sharing a campsite with another Troop like 20 years ago. The boys were (I heard) asked to share in their Rose and Thorns by that Troop on Snday morning and our Scouts just copied and it has been passed down year by year.

I think they 'got it' already. And I do not think they "threw in the towel"; they proposed an alternate activity for themselves (a gang of buddies going off on an adventure--what a concept!) outside of the Troop if need be. On the one hand a bad precedent and on the other I admire their initiative. Most of them come from the Patrol with the most cohesion BTW. I would like to reiterate that the Troop HAS had a process of older boys training younger boys on progressively harder hikes. Our Troop has a coveted backpacking award that has been awarded a 1/5th of the time as the Eagle rank. It is not unusual for a boy in our Troop to have 300-350 miles backpacking when they leave (and we have to travel for most of our good trips). We push hiking and backpacking--we got a whole system. BUT it is the latest crop of parents (and not just Mom's) who have short circuited the process by pushing themselves (and their boys) in. I guess they kinda slipped in and we screwed up by not pushing back. Like I said I, as a Brownshirt ASM I still had to do the same training as the boys to earn my way on a crew and I got some grudging faint praise respect in my time.* So some clear guidelines need to be drawn for adults and adhered to. We used to do that for our 'adult' patrol** patch: Do the whole "Scoutmaster Training" suite, go on a minimum of 5 campouts in a year, go to Summer Camp once, demonstrate your skills, etc, do the Hiking MB requiresments, etc. It took a while and you were proud when you got that scrap of cloth. It also made you a more competent ASM. HOWEVER I have observed that with each passing year and just not in scouts that more and more adults view rules as suggestions and guidelines to be ignored when it conflicts with what they want. I think generational and cultural forces are at work here. * A boy once said "At least Mr Turtle shows up. He may not be great but he is OK. He's slow but he finishes-you know if you need him you can find him at the back of the line. At least he tries" ** Our adult patrol is not 'Man Scouts' but we try to model good patrol behavior (perhaps a bit too formal in our salutations) for the boys especially with sharing cooking duties and menus.

The family thing is a new thing in our Troop and I do not think we have handled it so well. We really should have promoted our easy and nearby yearly camp-out better and raised the bar of adult participation on the others to retain the patrol method and boy independence. A neighboring Troop seems to handle this better.

We just had a "promotional visit" on this Merit Badge (along with some of the related "trade" ones) as our last Troop meeting. There are always some boys who are attracted to this sort of thing -- we promote it as 'old school manly'* sort of thing. We did Auto Repair one year on our church van. My son was so excited when he did plumbing when he got to solder a copper pipe --did it much better and neater than I ever had--that when I needed one done in a tight space in my house I let him do the job instead of me. He was 12 at the time and did great. I view these Merit Badges as trying to drum in most boys that someday they need to know they are capable of repairing things --or at least diagnosing-- instead of just calling a repair man. Most of our parents are profe$$ionals and while they seem like good lawyers, doctors, etc seem to have a minimum of practical skills. I like to pass on what my late dad gave me --he was an accountant who could debate you on the logic of Thomas Aquinas (though he was an atheist) while pulling a transmission over the weekend for a DIY overhaul. I am not as skilled as him but I learned enough rudimentary stuff by watching and being taught the simple stuff. *I realize lasses can be as handy as lads it's just that until this year we were marketing to boys.

'Thorns and Roses' is always a good campout wrap up--you can get some pretty good raw feedback. Our PLC is always right after the monthly campout and the boy leadership can give their views as well. I really liked someone on here who used "Thorns, Roses, and Buds" -- the Bud representing encouraging signs or opportunities.

I liked one our Old School Scoutmaster who knew the handbook in and out would seem to answer almost any question "Its in the Handbook!" and often could cite the page number. Eventually the smarter lads caught on.

Our Troop does not count inside activities as a campout but just as an extra activity (like a holiday season meeting becomes a potluck dinner). I do think the boys wanting to do such things point to a gelling of the group and is, over all, a good sign.

Son has green light for tonight.

I like the idea of publishing the grades though I think some new kind of gaming will be invented. One year in our Troop we sent some senior leadership boys to NYLT and they came back all fired up and into the patrol method and youth led. It was all fine and dandy until the boys started planning things some adults didn't like (a movie/nacho night and a gaming night lock-in overnighter) because "It did not seem to fulfill a purpose" and the next year there was no more money to underwrite NYLT.

Scouting must have a magical vision to persist despite so many attempts to screw it up!

The District gentleman likes to do three an evening and, while my son is #1 in the queue, it depends if the other two lads (who live elsewhere) will be available that night. If not it gets kicked to next week. Having seen these things before it is best for them to grab the earliest opportunity. The holidays kind of disrupt stuff. But the Eagle BOR chair is a really good and through guy so I trust him on his method.

I gotta give the PLC when my son was SPL a lot of credit. They really tried to grab control and when confronted with adults who vetoed things on the basis of cost they politely asked for information on trip costing for the last few years and what the fund raising funds were used for. Not demanding, just asking. Uncooperative adults really frustrated their planning; they couldn't find out why some 'cheap' trips cost so much and why they couldn't plan a fund raiser for an ambitious goal. I thought it would have been a useful exercise regardless of the result. I don't think it was any skulduggery on the adults part; just a combination of disorganization, apathy, and a desire for control. I recall on the third monthly PLC where this remained an issue a young 11 year old Patrol Leader sighing and saying "Those who control the purse strings control the future". As for the hike most of the hiker scouts are in one patrol so they might just make an exclusive patrol activity and invite a few other guys on the down low.

When my son was SPL he said his biggest frustration was the behind the back lobbying by parents right to him; he got emails, texts, and calls constantly despite the SM and some us ASM's running cover for him as much as possible. He would remind them that the Troop was boy led and refer them to the SM. Often after the SM backed him up they would still try manipulating things. His plate was pretty full between High School and the Troop at the time was 60 Boys and 5-6 Patrols. I think he learned a lot that year not all of it good.

It is WHATEVER. You only get so many withdrawals from the Trust Bank on Boy Led with teenagers.

Son#2 is on stand by status for his Eagle BOR for Thursday. I think he will do well--he is a good interview--and a very deserving and experienced scout.