Tampa Turtle

A fair point. Let the brick and mortar boys take the risk. I can see a win-win if BSA could resist undermining them with online business. It would really have to be a retailer with a national presence wouldn't it? Like a Walmart (I can see a downside with that as well).

Our Pack still does it. I think since I have known them...500 boys got their Bobcat Badge...most got turned upside down (a few said no)...no one dropped (yet). We had more than one DE at those things.

If a parent says something then you try to avoid doing it. We did the upside thing and asked the parents first if it was OK and asked the boy, twice and privately if it was OK. I never held the lads because I am not strong enough. I have a kid with sensory issues and we are a hand-shaking Troop; it really helped him along as there were a lot of patient non-adult men willing to take the time to help him practice until he has learned to at least tolerate it. I will pat a boy on a shoulder but that is about it. I have hugged the occasional boy because of a tragedy, I have to worries or regrets about that.

As I recall our pack had 150 boys so the annual campouts could get pretty huge. The reality was many folks showed up and never camped. Probably 60-80 tents in a very small council camp. Sometimes we had other units there that weekend and is was basically 'tent ghettos'. We divided our area into cub ranks and then dens and might tape them off based on who signed up. A few folks came early to claim a good spot, first come first served. Tigers, Wolves always ended up close to the rest rooms and the Webelos furtherest away. The Cubmaster working with the Webelos 2 showed arriving families where to go and helped them set up tents if needed. We had to work to keep activity areas and travel lanes clear of tents and tent lines.

I threw it back to my son "how much do you want it? Sell something? Get a job? Go on an OA Crew?". He might be able to accumulate the cost over a year of part time work and go year after that. But he wants to go with his buddies and I get that. We have major, major expenses looming next year so the timing is bad. In general he has lamented how so many scout activities seem to be getting more and more expensive and as families with less money get forced out the ones remaining seem less concerned with trip costs. Still I wish he could go.

BSA 2017: Be Prepared. For Life. BSA 2018: It is what it is.

I heard last night the crews filling up slowly as I sat through an excellent presentation. With spending money and air fare it would cost me $2,000+ to go through cancel. I am sure Philmont is great --from everyone has gone has raved--but as Mrs Turtle said 'How many once in a lifetime experiences are we responsible for?'.

Kudos to THAT Council to providing info for an objective if hard discussion. The solutions are debatable but it is good to have some facts presented to start the discussion rather than being behind closed doors and the pronouncements given to Scouters from above. (I was gonna say 'on stone tablets' but that would entail some permanence).

I don't know why they didn't just add a new color for Lions...this just will confuse people. Questionable decision but will sell more neckers.

Special Belt Loops for Camporees, Ranks, High Adventure Basis, Friends of Scouting, Councils! Thinking of the possibilities...at $3.50 a pop!

I guess our boys lacked good sense.

My dad was in a patrol-sized Troop on Long Island in the late 1940's. Said he and his buddies would just walk out of town to go camping, basically just going from one guys house to another. (No adults but I think some cigarette smoking and the occasional bottle of beer might have been involved. Bacon, Bread, Beans, Beer, and cigs) Fast forward to the 1970's and my dad would not drive me in the Troop meetings (in florida) because 'scouts was not supposed to be something you had to be driven to'.

The Scouts I know who are (quietly but openly gay) are among the most opposed. Maybe any uniform revisions will raise the ridiculously low hemlines of the official switchbacks a bit higher...but not to the 1970's hot-pants style. Just saying.

And Dad was gay so everything is cool. Personally I always had a thing for Jan over Marcia.

As a dyslexic I see weird things--I thought it said " pink see through, girls t-shirt". Really. Maybe it was some unwanted ads on the side bleeding over. Got my attention though.

I think you need time; it is not a drop in for 10 minute things. And really only a few boys at a time. But almost everyone I know who has done it has liked it.

While my family is a traditional nuclear family (Mom, Dad, 2 boys all living in same home, no divorces, special arrangements etc) it is not the majority in my Troop. And I have seen various parental figure step in at times so I imagine a concept of 'Family Camping' could lead to some interesting situations. Maybe Timmy (or Tammy now) camps with her patrol and bio-mom with her new blended family comes along and bio-dad with his new blended family does too. And former step parent with the half sister drops by just for the day and brings buster the dog because it is too short a time to board and too long to leave at home. The dog is a big hit with the boys except for the newbie who once got bit by a dog and wants to call his mom to get him now and at least since Timmy/Tammy's mom is here could she come out... As Timmy's patrol is cooking dinner his bio-mom lets him know that Grandma is bringing pizza for the family out to the park and should they get any for him? Bio-Dad wanting to look like a sport proposes he will get enough pizza for the whole troop ("hooray!" says Timmy's patrol-"we don't have to cook"). He will swing by the Walmart in case anyone has forgotten anything. Since Shark Patrol has, again for the third campout this year, forgot propane for their stove they ask him can he get some for them. Now they don't have to figure out if you can cook Mac & Cheese over a campfire. While former step parent has left with the dog (because half sister is into dance and aren't they ALWAYS having practice!) newbie mom has shown up on site by now with her giant tent and decided to set up between the patrol and the adult area. "All right" thinks newbie "I'm sleeping with mommy tonight!". Grandma gets there a little late because finding the campsite in the dark is hard but she brings S'mores because she LOVED them in Campfire Girls back in the day--hey boys let me teach you some campfire songs! Bio-Dad shows up with the Pizza a bit late and a bit cold but no one complains because he brought a case of pringles. Timmy's whole extended family take up most of the fire ring because who is not attracted by a nice campfire. The older boys clam up and stop telling the usual latest 'Dank Memes' jokes so they don't shock the visitors too much. The younger boys are happy because this is just like Cub Scouts. In the morning the Troop wakes up to find most of Timmy's family tribe missing --they had tickets or something for Sunday--and Timmy is missing, we assume he went with one of his parents. Newbie and his best friend are packing up early --he is in junior rowing crew and they practice Sundays, too--and going with Mom. After all nothing else much is going on this morning and why do they have to return to the scout hut when it would save time for everyone to drive directly home! What is left of Dragon Patrol ends up packing up almost the entire load of Troop gear. They consider throwing out their old unused food until they realize they better cook something for Cooking Merit Badge. Hot dogs will be easy! Old Scouter the Scoutmaster sighs a heavy sigh...he may never get used to this new fangled Family Camping. Thank Heaven for Scout Juice! He knows attendance is going to be down the next week as the older kids drift away but figures he might be able to outlast Newbie's Mom and Timmy/Tammy's extended family as those kids never stick around much after First Class.

Oh gosh yes, the dog. Been there. I guess that is logical...my dog is a better member of the family than my boys.

I am a CPAP user but I do not need it as much because I lost a lot of weight so I could go camping. (I have to work really, really hard to get my BMI from Morbidly Obese to merely Overweight. I have the metabolism of a sloth now) In the years since there are small, compact, battery CPAP's that one could bring on campsites like summer camp and then recharge during the day. The machines now are much quieter and are less noisy then I am also a diabetic and long excursions take a lot of extra work to be accommodated and at times I need some assistance from fellow scouters. In return I work extra hard to pull my weight HOWEVER there are time I choose to simply just not go because it would be impose too many limitations on others. That said I have seen outings with kids with limited mobility options, blindness, etc being cheerfully accommodated by their buddies so some of this is a bit of a straw-man IMHO. Now if its is Girl-Scouter needing a CPAP for Family Camping then all bets are off!

I saw that at a event, the HAM demonstration was put so far away from all the action (all they needed was a picnic table and a plug) that it saw little traffic. The boys that got into it really dug it.

It just is not promoted that much and people are just not aware of it. We have had a long time scouter who was one of the JOTA sites so a lot of our cubs and scouts have participated. A lot of operators here in Florida were relaying messages to and from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria; that opened some eyes. I see a good link with Emergency Preparedness Merit Badge.

He is a junior and starting to look at colleges with ROTC programs. I think he is more of a 'group' person.

I was glad advancement was not on the list as well. I have had to sit on quite a few boy-led summer camp selection committees; here are the most common reasons I have heard for Boy Scouts selecting a summer camp. Their reasons, not mine: - Staff. Were they friendly? Did they know their stuff or were they bored kids. - Nostalgia. Troop has gone there before. Known quality. - Newness. Desire to do something different (take a train, out west, water program) - Topography, Climate. Boys from Tampa do not want to go to another hot, flat place during the summer. This almost always rules out the camps in Florida, sorry council. Most Troops I know from Tampa head to the mountains. Has to be cold enough to cut down on Mosquitoes. - Dining Hall. Boys talk a lot about quality and quantity of food. I have never been able to get Boys interested in a place where they do their own cooking. Even the Patrols who pride themselves on cooking at campouts. Summer Camp is viewed as a vacation from the norm. - Merit Badge completion - For good or evil most of the boys want to make sure they get stuff completed for their time spent. They remember which camps screwed up the records and which different. - Water Temperature - There always seems to be some kind of water front but I have never heard much about the equipment; mostly about how cold the water was. That seems to be mentioned in statements like "The food was good but the lake is too cold for swimming" - Sleeping Arrangements- Tents vs Adirondacks vs Open cabins are big discussion points. Boys seem to like the independence of having the two man canvas tent - Fun extras - While many camps promote big ticket things that seem to catch the eyes of leaders like zip lines, climbing towers, campfire program, rafting adventures. etc - the boys really talk about spoof merit badges, stupid theme days (zombie day), staff teaching camp songs, store hours, slush puppy flavors, and if the 'cool' instructors let Boys make something if they are not taking the Merit Badge. Kind of restores my faith in humanity. - Girls. If the camp store has Venture girls staffing it, do they have long hair, are the friendly and will they talk to you? Is the swimming instructor known as "good looking girl" working at that camp?

The Turtles are happy to announce the birth of their 5' -11" 120 pound Eagle Scout. Gave great interview I hear. Survived despite leaving 'gag patches' on his uniform ("I Speak English" and a Klingon Interpreter Strip). Likes to live dangerously--when questioned about if that was his attitude toward a serious interview--he said "I am a Scout and a Scout is all about having fun. If I can't have some fun with my uniform I should join the military". He was having a pretty good time. Came out wanting to plan some high adventure outings for the guys still in the Troop; I am most pleased that 'he gets it".

To be fair it takes a special boy to pull some it off sometimes; usually a guy with some real skills who is 'pretty chill'. Some boys are a little too much drama--they just make it worse. The boy sense of fair play is a little off: (True story. Older boy puts assembled tent 20' off the ground, younger boys a short kid finds it and raises hell) S: "Hey Tim, sorry man, about putting your tent up in the tree. It seemed pretty funny" T: "Knock it off, you tore a hole it was a new tent" S:"You can set fire to my tent if you want?" T:{thinking) "No...gotta any duct tape?" S:"I think we have some. I'll get it down. You can have my cobbler tonight--I really don't like it anyway" Peace is achieved. Later short kid asks older kid to put it back in the tree so he can sit in it and get his picture taken. Mom returns from hike, hears the whole funny story and asks where were the adult leaders when all this hazing was going on. (fair question) ----- Boys actually identified this as a Rose and Thorn the next day: Rose as it was pretty impressive and funny but a Thorn because it hurt Tim's feelings. Boys proposed a rule that no tents put in trees or all tents put in trees with everyone agreeing.