Tampa Turtle

At a recent summer camp SM training session we were given a sample camp schedule that showed how to check off 30 T-1 requirements in ONE campout. I had a running argument with another ASM who wanted to do T-1 in 60-90 days and the training just cut the legs right from under me.

I would say that once a boy reaches 1st class he is committed UNLESS he is a 90 day wonder.

I am surprised by this, when my wee lads were Tigers we did the Friday night to Sunday morning campout for 2 nights. Most parents didn't stay both nights but we did and I believe it is OK. Tiger Campouts are really Family Campouts done at as group.

In defense of the last poster if there is a national average then there are probably some programs that fall ahead or behind on the bell curve. It still begs the question at what point do become at Eagle Mill? Is just the number of Eagles? If you produce a lot of Eagles but they are indeed qualified and knowledgeable could it be a good program, support systems, and opportunities. In our case I think we had an excellent Life to Eagle coordinator who kept the older boys motivated and focused and that caused numbers to jump. Still I view it as a red flag for the program which is why I stopped lurking at this board and started participating. I think it is a slippery slope between facilitating opportunities for boys and becoming a mill. I guess this is a well traveled road here about causes...program, easy advancements, MB classes, pushy parents, etc. And yes a lot of it lies at the feet of the adults in charge. Still I want to do the right thing and not throw a lot of obstacles unfairly in front of a boy if he is just following the system as it is. The sad thing is my older son, who has a lot of disabilities has to work very hard to get to Eagle. I do not help him much and that makes it harder. He has had that as his goal since Tiger. However if he gets it Eagle will be a cheaper award than it once was...

Mr Norman, or may I call you Spiney, We are trying to institute the change. Resistance from some adults "boys will waste time" and "boy lead leads to Lord of the Flys". Took us newer guys over a year to make things happen. Adults rough out a Calendar (blocking out the special events, conflicts, school schedules) and leaving slots for camping trips. What activities on what trips are up to the boys-this will be done at the PLC. As an ASM I do not know what the PLC's are like. Troop meetings are planned by the SPL and the PLC. We are planning to move the adult announcements all online --they cannot take up a lot of time. Boys having been running most of the Troop meetings in the last year --and the meetings look much more chaotic. We have been doing more MB work at Troop meetings at the request of the boys. We need to train boys and adults in what Patrol based and boy led really means. New mixed-age Patrols are just getting up and running. 1/2 have taken advantage of the summer to start gelling. We are letting the Patrols do some Patrol level activities if they want --we have enough adults to give them the needed support to make it happen if they really want to do so. We are also going to as much Patrol based equipment as possible; we are re-fitting everyone so they all stay on the same level. After that any damage or loss is on them. We used to be short on equipment and when stuff is shared there is naturally much less care and responsibility. Naturally all gear will be marked per each patrol's new color. This requires more Patrol Boxes (I lost the Box-Backpacking argument) and haulage then before. We had used blended temp patrols at campouts for cooking purposes but it NEVER worked. I have advocated for more Patrol spacing at campouts--we will see how well that works. Sometimes space is pretty limited and we can get pretty crowded. Adults will arrange some patrol and skill competitions as pre-meeting activities and are encouraging more game and fun-time. This is all a bit alien to the culture so we feel we will need to intervene in the beginning. After things get going the SPL can pick what things they want for pre-meeting, etc. I love the idea of Troop level training. I think we may move in that direction but a lot is on the plate now.

Yeah, its over. Think of all the free time you will have to deal with new things if you just put it behind you. If the boys want to continue fine but line up a substitute MBC. I agree most boys will take the easier path. If I were you I would be happy they moved on to a "better fit."

Thanks evil and OGE. 1. We just switched to mixed age patrols and a lot of boys and parents did not bolt as threatened. New patrol names, new histories. We had a NSP for awhile; I do not know if we will do that next year or sling 'em right into the existing Patrols. So far the newbies are not as big a "burden" as expected as they bring enthusiasm and obviously look up to the older boys. So far so good. 2. We have a High Adventure Patrol for the older boys; they do week long canoe trips, hike the AT etc. We thought about doing an official Venture Patrol. A lot of these older boys are still less active in the Troop meetings but ares still connected. 3. Pushing more and more responsibilities to the boys; the Troop is just too big to do otherwise. We are picking up some static from the grey beards on this --the Troop used to be small and more adult run; but in any case the old way wasn't working. I think the main goal over the next year is going to be if we can make the boy-led Patrol thing work in the face of the MB/advancement pressures, parental need for control, and the human tendency to want to go back to the old and easy way to do things. Ask me again in 6 months.

I suspect my Troop is sliding into "Millness". There is a lot of talk about #of eagles, #advancements, MB earned. I wonder what would be the best metric to be using? Retention, Attendence, Uniforms, what?

I am too depressed to address dkurtenbach's comments; I have gotten that response too from some parlour-types. I think OakTree hit the nail (or one of them) on head. We are planning to hold more Scoutcraft competitions and to add more "adventure" to our outings but I agree it seems to be in addition to the other requirements and those are enough work as it is. It would be better if more of that was incorporated into the normal advancement requirements. I see parallels between BSA's fourth high adventure base and hobbies today; that is a move to professionalize hobbies and activities away from a more frequent if more amateur approach. Don't go outdoors many times a month but have a big production once or twice a day. Kind of like the quality time vs quantity time parental argument. I guess I am a traditionalist. I think fire-starting, rigging a tarp, cooking food, and knots and ropework are still relevant. If for nothing else giving a boy the confidence that they have tools to handle an unforeseen scenario. (We live in Hurricane country and if Tampa ever got really nailed they ain't kidding when they say you are on your own for at least 3 days. It's be worse than that--the cavalry ain't there as much as it was 5 years ago) Most importantly in this day and age Scoutcraft skills are FUN and different enough to attract enough boys to keep BSA thriving.

Gee and I thought I had problems! I guess that is the helicopter parent equivalent of the "Charlie Don't Surf" scene from Apocalypse Now". On a tuesday! I would tell my Son that while I love him just as much as the other parents that I respect him more and know he can make it on his own for just a week. That you know he is not just a baby. I guess these are the same parents that will accompany their kids to college, job interviews, and basic training. While parents have the right my observation is that it is extremely disruptive to "camp norms" whenever parents show up. Hang in there. You are doing the right thing.

re: Adults at Cubs vs. (Boy) Scouts. I have noticed the disparity too. I think Cubs was a lot of hard work; you do a lot of stuff "for" them. Scouts you need the extra adult at times but I think you pick up a few "Man Scouts". Face it, hiking, canoeing, snorkel trips, all sound like a lot of fun so I think a lot of guys come along as an excuse to hang around and get away from home for a weekend. Of course the solution is to put 'em to work!

I had to look it up. About 80+ on paper. Really about 50-60 actives with 40-50 showing up for campouts. I would agree about the 40-50 size.

I would lean toward Crew if nothing else at that age a lot of boys seem more interested in that program --if they do the activities he likes. The girls don't hurt. But then again some boys would like scouts. I dislike the "too old for Eagle" argument. That should not be the focus for scouts.

I want the Coffee CamelBak with the direct IV drip.

WE had 59 at Woodruff, including 7 Scouters. 2 boys (12 and 14) and 1 adult did the Miler. They seemed pretty strict especially about the practice.

I do not agree. Most boys liked idea of camping. A lot of parents were concerned about the hassle. We had 2-3 Pack campouts a year. Typically 150 kids including siblings plus adults. More than half showed up in morning left by afternoon. Still they were very popular with the boys. We combined our campouts with Pack meetings and gave out advancement awards at cammpfire. This encouraged folks to stick around. At most one meal (hot dogs/burgers) might be provided by the Pack but usually food was done by Dens. Still it was a lot of work. Leaders typically came out early on Friday night, hung out and relaxed before the big workday of Saturday. Sunday we would have a short Scouts Own service. Like I said some of the moms if they had not camped before were a little intimidated. So we tried to make it easy. Usually brought extra duct-tape, insect repellent, etc for newbie adults.

Ann, I would.

I used to help with the annual Pack presentation on Camping. I used to have a backpack with "stuff to bring" (flashlight, bug spray, water bottle) "stuff not to bring" (guns, bombs, fireworks, electronics). I used to ask the kids (and there were about 100+ of them)"bring or not bring". Maybe you can make a gameshow out of it. When talking to the group I realized that there was a LOT of young parents who had never camped or it had been decades. So while their kids find it exciting they would get stressed out. So we would talk them down, told them to keep it simple, and assign experienced adults and webelos/boy scouts at camp to assist them with tent set-up. We would tell them that since some would not go because they do not want to look stupid. We gave them a list but kept it short. I think with getting Cub families camping it is the Mom's that are key. They usually are the blockers and there are so many single parent household with Mom's. One of the big issues with us were the Mom's (including Den Mom's) were pretty picky about the restrooms--that was a reason we did not do many campsites. Also a lot of Mom's dis not mind bringing food but did not like preparing it at site. So we planned for Dad's or Boys to do that part. I think maybe the Mom's were uptight about preparing food in front of other mom's plus it takes a while to get used to cooking outside. Mom's were more concerned about rain and needed chairs in higher proportion than guys and boys. Also hygiene was a much bigger issue. Make sure you have a big campfire if you can (supervised of course). That is a good thing to "hook 'em". Make sure the boys have lots of fun, also and Mom's will approve. We also would set up a tent at the meeting and play roll up the sleeping bag games, etc. Stuff like that.

I am interested in this as well. I signed up MB-C as well. as E-Prep I am involved in Emergency Operations as part of my work duties. We live in Hurricane Country and 90% of our scouts live in early evacuation zones. I know the big picture but am not sure how to translate the individual activity to a boy level. I know where there is a lot of FEMA, etc guidance and am sure I can contact/pull-in Fire/Rescue types if needed. I think the Troop emergency plan would be useful. For real. I think it might be good to roll some of the requirements into a drill. In Tampa they always have some really good disaster scenarios (two airliners collide over the city, one crashed into the stadium during Superbowl, the other attempts to land clipping and overturning a chemical truck next to a neighborhood before crashing intact upside down in 20 feet underwater.) I also think this is one of those "be prepared" activities that SHOULD be interesting/exciting to a boy like Wilderness Survival should. I think it is a cool topic. Be. Prepared. Mazzuca. Learn. Proper. Punctuation.

When I was cubbing I really struggled with the Summer Activities (outside of Day Camp). In 6 den/patrols only had 1 that really did stuff and that was 1 or 2 laid-back activities during the summer. One year my boys did the Outdoor Activity Award and were often the only participants. I was a newbie and made them do almost ALL the requirements not picking SOME. So they really earned it that year. It was a pretty cool pocket patch and they hated seeing it go when they became Boy Scouts. I think the main thing during the summer is the parents want the break.

I would think it would stink if you really did not want to be there. I am usually one of the regular campers but sometimes don't attend just so my boy can do activities without me around.

I know this is a no-brainer but I found the wet necker against the carotids quite good at keeping me cooler.

My 12 year old son went on a camping trip after having the flu earlier in the week. He was feeling much better by Wednesday before after losing fluids out ...well multiple openings let us say. I stupidly let him go. While he did drink he started out dehydrated and our 5 mile hike turned into an 8 miler in a shade-less scrub when the Troop got lost. I gave him some of my water and he seemed OK. After we got back Sunday night he was peeing blood. Found out later he had sustained some (hopefully temporary)kidney damage from cumulative dehydration.

I have used the wax coated Bonbel semisoft cheeses. So much my boys call it "camping cheese".

How about one of those fake indoor campfires with newspaper logs and lights. Do a talent show around it. Can also make edible fires. Maybe a compass game, you know directions/headings. Balloon stomp is great indoors. Puppet show with some sort of camping theme. I would break out the cub-scout how-to books. While I no longer have cubs I still use it for parties and school ideas.