Tampa Turtle

I loved the MOAB website! I am going to start lobbying for that as a maybe. However I must admit after watching Grizzly Man about Timothy Treadwell last month I am pretty nervous about going into Grizzly country without a helicopter gunship nearby.

Really I feel I have been lumped in with "the haters" as well when I am not sure where the line is. I don't think singing is that big a deal but I am open to being convinced. Thus far I have not heard a convincing argument. OGE made a great case against lying and misleading newbies; I would be on guard to prevent that sort of thing more now. I was abused as a youth (both sexually and emotionally) so I am not naive to some of these things but I really think the debate over the singing the song is silly. I would agree that is probably not that effective though for most boys. As to where to draw the line, of course we should use the Scout Law. We also should not coddle the boys like they are cub scouts. We are building men, kind, honest, courteous men, but still men in all its unpolished forms. If we must water down EVERY action because it MIGHT be hurtful to ANY boy we might as well scrap the program as it now exists.

Let me rephrase what we do for lost scout stuff? Obviously we haze our boys especially by making them do the little teapot hand gestures. I get a very *special* thrill when I see the sting of tears down their little humiliated faces. (simulate evil laugh here) On the flip side, is there anything you do to keep them from losing stuff in the first place? (besides marking everything). I mean on the one hand we at the Troop tell them to travel light while simultaneously handing out "suggested" equipment lists that grow and grow every year "just in case". Seems like the more they pack the more they can loose. (unless getting them to loose stuff was just stepping them up to fail so we can get them to sing the evil song. Wicked, wicked Zeus!)

I could not get the gallery to work. I will look that up. I feel my troop is in a AT-Philmont-SeaBase rut. Is MOHAB cost (besides transport) comparable?

Scoutfish, I pray that she does not ask me in that situation. It's like the Geico commercial with Mr and Mrs Lincoln. The hesitation alone is what's going to get you. Beavah, I had a similar situation with the swim test. Didn't quit but was terrified. Almost lost him. I used to be that kid so I try to search him out. But especially in a big troop things get missed. Some of what attracts boys to scouts is the mystique of the ordeal; the idea that they individually will be tested, that they will overcome fears, maybe do something heroic, have adventures. Having to endure something, the ritual snipe hunt, can become that thing and is not always negative. The mean, vindictive scouter or scout can make anything a form of hazing, harassment, and bullying. I have seen this with always making the newbies do clean up or mockery. So like Calico said it should be measured by the Scout Law. Was the search for the Bacon Stretcher made in a friendly way or not? How does that boy interpret such things? My Asberger son views "pranks" as an invitation to all-out war "You hit me 10% I hit you back 140%" is his quote. I think Beav has a point when he talks about throwing the hazing term around too lightly. It is highly charged and broad-brushes scouting in a bad light; might as well as throw in Jingoistic, Bigoted, and Zealots while we are out it.

Sorry that was not very nice.

I interact with another Troop whose leaders all where their WB kerchiefs and slides to all there Troop functions with pride including on camp-outs. They are a rather bling heavy group of adults. I have found it a useful barometer in that group of the rather more inflated egos.

SR540 Beaver, I am highly suspicious of the veracity of that quote.

I believe "infallible" in Roman Catholism refers to infallibility in interpretation of doctrine and is, in "the church" a concept that is fairly new -maybe a century or so old. Unlike the BSA it has the advantage of getting a "final word" on a matter of doctrine (well until some other guy over turns it). Infallibility does not refer to issues like the weather. That said when I was a good catholic I had issues of conscience on matters that had the final stamp of decision; so I left. If I stay in the club I play by that clubs rules.

Ah but they do elect their PL their future PL by electing their APL. I am all for sticking to "the method" but if BSA is advocating MORE frequent elections than I think that is just ill advised. Also some SM put up the slate of SPL candidates and the boys elect them. Is that really more democratic?

I was amazed at how much stuff was just left after summer camp. You could have equipped a patrol! We have a lost and found section. If it is something important (book, class A, knife, good sleeping bag) with a name I will try to contact the person with a reminder. So many families in our troop are loaded (alas not me)that I think a lot of boys do not respect their stuff. Also they are boys. We have a lost and found corner. If it is there after a couple camp-outs it is "fair game" for scavenging. We just did an annual clean out day and gave it away, donated it, or pitched a mound of the stuff. Boys who came out to help picked over it. A lot of it was from boys long gone. I keep debating if we need a policy or standard "pitch" dates a few times a year. I was tempted to post pictures of lost items on our webpage or a list. Boys being boys they forget a lot and a lot of parents don't know either. Seems so wasteful. My older boy who cannot remember stuff but hates losing items combats this by constantly paring down what he takes on campouts.

Hazing is a lot like the bullying argument. There is clearly a grey area. I view scouting as a bit of introduction into the male world which can be a bit rough and alpha-dog like. Pretty soon we will be saying that having a loosing patrol in a patrol competition is public humiliation or being the last kid in the group to advance in rank. A little perspective here. I am not going to lose to much sleep over singing. We do have some boys that are a bit "fragile" and yeah I think a gentler approach is warranted at times. What about cutting the corner off a Totin Chit? What about making a badly behaving boy sit something out? Maybe we should not making the boys wear their uniforms in public, though a tradition, causes some public humiliation? Fred where do you draw the line?

I was reading something the other day that most of the super-duper poly, wicking hiking clothes were a spin-off of Department of Agriculture research. I think it is only crony capitalism if you don't like the project and investing in the future of american jobs and industry if you do.

Love it! Great ideas,

I have sung the teapot song as ASM when I lost my book at a campout and a newbie who found it said "Teapot song, Teapot song". So sing I did.

Well we are in year 2 of the "revamp". Last years 1st years were grilled mightily about how it was THERE responsibility to keep track of advancement, get your book signed, etc. And sure enough that group does it great where the older boys are more dependent. So change does occur. As we become more boy led the source of resistance seems to be some "super achiever" dads and a lot of moms who seem troubled by the chaos. This resistance extends over to critiquing the method of PL/SPL selection if it does not result in the selection of the "best", most organized boy.

I have to admit I never thought about it (and I got picked on a lot growing up). We have the boys sing the "teapot song" if they loose there Class A or Book. Once saw a boy I knew who had a bad lisp sing it and wondered if it bothered him. OGE, I can relate though not as bad. When I was a Wolf I was in the woods with my 5 year old brother following some Webes on a nature hike sans adults. My brother wouldn't cross a log over a trickle of a stream and they left us behind. We promptly got lost (first time in the woods) and didn't get out and find a service road for 2 hours. No fun and felt betrayed. My older boy, who has asbergers and other stuff is so literal he will believe anything. He is easy to pull tricks on but will never trust you again. Ever. I am not sure where to draw the line.

I agree with Basement. Unless costs are that critical it is good relations.

We make 'em tuck in both.

Beavah, Thanks for thread start, I tend to spin off in many directions easily. I agree one year is superior to six months. Six month is a product of the POR pressures. Shades of Vietnam --officers getting their ticket punched! Maybe we can extend it, I dunno. This change was sprung on me by the SM and CC. We are trying to meet POR pressure by expanding other POR slots and making boys work them. For example, we have 2 historians and with so much going on that is working quite well. We also have multiple QMs (1 Main guy and 5 super-Patrol QMs) as we shifted to Patrol-based equipping. So those guys put in a lot of time. We have an adult assigned as a resource but it has shifted much work to the boys than adults, thank goodness. We are doing mixed ages for our 5 regular Patrols (and 1 High Adventure). So far I would say 3 of 5 Patrols are doing well, 1 is struggling, and 1 needs reminding to include the young guys. I think the 15-18 year old PL leading a bunch of younger guys is, at least here, pretty idealized. The older guys are hitting high school and other activities (usually school related rather than sports and girls) do not leave them with much time. I would say the older guys only show up for 1/2 the camp-outs and meetings and that leaves quite a PL hole. So the "middle-year guys" (I'd say around Star) seem to be PL material --they have some skin in the game but have some experience. They seem to still have enough free-time to take on the responsibility. The older guys seem to be more and more Instructors, Troop Guides. We elect the SPL every 6 months as well. We had one SPL for a year and he was great. Then a 6 month SPL who did not show up for 3 months. Now the SM vets the candidates and they have to have their parents approve them running for SPL because of the time commitment. We typically have 2-3 candidates. The last SM made 5 ASPL slots -what a disaster! Don't get me started. SPL is late who is in charge? Beavah, I agree about line-officer and staff-officer. I am most comfortable being staff -I see too many shades of grey. I once was a director of a group of 14 but that was the limit of my span of control. I need a lot of relationship building. So I encourage the boys and adults to realize that there are lots of different types of boys and skill sets. As to if the SPL detracts from the PLC; I have not seen it. The buck has to stop somewhere.

83Eagle, Amen brother, amen.

Gosh Gary --that's just crazy enough to work. Pass that book over here -hey its got knots in it too!

This is where you have more wiggle room with an Agnostic then an Atheist. If a boy said "I would like to believe there is a God but I am not sure he is real" you can counsel him to work on it and how can you be reverent just in case.

EagleDad, Thanks. I am sure the new approach (which was just sprung on me by the SM and CC) has its pluses and cons. I not sure how to approach the bad APL issue. But I guess that gets to the non-performing POR issue.

Well our Webelos "Den's" with their BSA allowed round "Den emblem" and "den name" on their BSA allowed Khaki "cub scout shirts".. I made sure while I was transitioning them to Boys Scouts that if they ever uttered the words "patrol" to crush that little spark of joy out of them completely and ruthlessly. Give the Webelos a break, they got stuck with the atrocious plaid.