Tampa Turtle

Kudu, Camp Woodruff, huh? Well I guess we violated that one many times last summer. We have have a few she-woman mountain-mom's in our Troop who are more experienced than 80% of the ASM's. They have come on a few trips (like canoeing) when we wanted more qualified adults. Most of the time they stay home. It does change the complexion of the trip some. We have stated that the tree-peeing will continue; the ladies response was "well not on our tent OK". Reasonable. I find the problem, for us, is the introduction of another woman into the mix sometimes causes blow-back at home for the ASM's. It is one thing to leave her at home for the sake of the boys but fraternizing with another woman all weekend can feel a bit icky.

I usually take: -Water Bottle (1 liter) -Key light (in pocket) -Knife -Compass, whistle on lanyard -Pencil and paper Daypack with: -Backup water (at least a liter) -Small First Aid Kit+moleskin -Meds for 24 hours -Small Survival Kit (s-blanket,firestarter,etc) -Small bug spray,sun screen -My Diabetic supplies -Map

Funny, cause of this forum I cut mine off and threw them in the memory box (most of them were cubbie awards). Funny thing was I was taken more seriously after that.

I will be doing the POR reviews, mostly asking the boys what they have done, plan to do, and see that they do it. Most of them have made an effort but a few will get a warning that the SM may not sign off on it. The waffler's son is a fine lad and did a good job at his previous POR. His dad is doing the boys a disservice by over-hovering; the kid can't make his own decisions without looking to see what his Dad wants. I think the son is not reaching his potential because of his Dad. Things could be worse except (1) Dad never goes on camp-outs and (2) Little Brother is now a scout and Dad is focused on T-1 acceleration. I want all the boys-especially the ones leaving--to do well. Some of them should be happier if the parents are not so negative but I worry about the ones who are unhappy because they do not like scouts, camping, or working hard--I do not see them being happier where they are going. I will look hard at the reasons folks are leaving and am sure there are legitimate room for improvement. But a large part of it IMHO stems from 3 main issues: (1) The shift from the adult-led Troop oriented to boy-led Patrol orientation. (2) More outdoor activities vs MB classes (3) Large Troop size. 1 and 2 are the direction we are going to stay in and, in general, is paying off. 3 will be somewhat relieved by the folks leaving. In the meantime we will try to serve all the boys well; though I do not look forward to the tension in the next Troop meeting while the folks are still there.

Our Troop adult cook has bought cases of Domin-aide from Domino Sugar (I might have the spelling wrong) from a Restaurant supply house. He is a smart shopper and likes to buy in bulk. We also buys bacon in 15 pound boxes. It is very exciting for all but our cardiologists.

wingnut, Thanks for that...there is one dad (a ring leader) who is waffling to stay. I want to yell: go! go!. Got me all happy for nothing.

I saw that LOL but just couldn't bring myself to post it. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

One of the best SM's I know is 23 without kids, an ex-Eagle and great guy. Yeah if it makes the parents nervous pair 'em with another ASM and stick to the YPT like glue. But I have to agree it is a couple dad's who give me the creepy feeling and I must admit to doing a little extra PI work done to double check.

GK very good advice. It has taken me a year to get to that realization that is the best approach. Boy-led has much bigger "pay-checks". At the last trip my youngest was in charge of cooking dinner for 4 over a fire. It was on a backpacking trip so things were pretty minimal. I started to give him advice, which he didn't want anyway, and stopped. All I could do was walk far away--it was driving me nuts. I came back 30 minutes later, expecting to say a "will you listen to me now", and his dinner looked beautiful and all the boys were saying how good it was. All I could think was "wow". That said it can be pretty hard to learn to hang back from your own kids. New leadership needs to all be on the same page as much as possible and back each other up. Especially since in the beginning you will get some static and criticism from parents; it can get a little discouraging. Also sometimes you need to remind a parent/ASM to give his own son some space.

We had to wait until the majority of the old leadership aged out to switch to boy-led. The boys appear to have more fun and while it appears chaotic and less efficient for the most part things get done. The ones who have the most problem are the 1st year ASM's who are have a hard time making the mental switch; neither of them were Boy Scouts. There were also a couple other very legitimate issues and philosophical differences that are often expressed on this Forum. Yes that is why it is good to spell it all out in the beginning. I notice a majority of the boys leaving are poor campers in which case I wonder why they stay in any case. With cross-over season upon us perhaps we should make clear "you will go camping! You will hike and canoe and cook your own food. If you want to grow up this is your Troop."

Thanks GK I too think it will all workout. I was a little sad last night having to tell boys that some friends would be leaving including a popular ASM. But in life people can come and go...

In my experience there is a lot of parental pressure to work hard on advancement and MB classes and "not waste time". We have had to have boys cut back on MB classes --one kid took 6 and started crying when he couldn't get them done and his Dad would be mad. We want the boys to be doing something --hiking, shooting, swimming, playing games, rather than just hanging back at the campsite and getting in trouble. That said it seems some camps keep cutting back on their "open periods" that is the swimming area is only open to non-MBers an hour or two a day.

It is now a quasi-requirement. It elevates the discussion to if we are implementing the methods the right way from Webelos III.

I was that way too. Takes a while. I try to patient with the DL/ASM conversions. I see why some folks say to take a break. SM training has helped a number of ASM's see the light.

A few old DL's takin it hard. Raised him from Tigers and are pretty disappointed on how the parents handled it. (their boys knew for weeks which explain their attitude). Frustrating when you work with the boys. I do not think many parents appreciate how much time (and heart)goes into working with the boys and how attached you can get. All they see is meeting times and COH.

At our Pack campfire we had the oldest Webe unit be the "honor guard" of the fire 2 at a time. Had to cycle them in and out every 10 minutes. Had a DL next to them and another DL nearby with a bucket of water.

Guy, That is a good explanation. We mixed up the patrols and they used to be all in one. The parents were upset. Funny thing is the boys in this patrol had fallen out with each other and become increasingly dysfunctional. They are welcome to go and hope they will be happy. My only down side is some of these boys REALLY need the freedom to show some independence. Our SM had to address the PL's at the PLC this week (all of them appear to be staying) with "Some folks may leave for another Troop. Some boys want to continue in a boy-led Patrol-based Boy Scouting; others prefer a den-based approach where the adults make all the decision for the Troop. It is their decision to go off in that direction but we will continue on ours." A lot of it boils down to the differing culture of the feeder packs. (We have 3 and may lose 2).

Gonzo, I must beg to differ with you my good man. We did them once a year at our old Pack. Boys fought over who would guard the ashes and get the grommets. As a Boy Scout Troop we are constantly sought to do flag retirements; in fact we have a backlog. After the 9/11 10th anniversary at our Webelos/Boy Scout campout we retired over 3,000 flags that had been used at a memorial. Took a while but all the boys had a chance to lay a flag on the fire in memorial of someone. Was very moving. I am sure that (especially the long narrated and somewhat contrived this strip symbolizes, etc ceremony)that some boys are bored but I think the majority enjoyed them and got something out of it. Folks just don't do much solemn civic ceremony much anymore, at one time it was quite common. It is part of being a good citizen and, besides, the right thing to do.

Very good and practical advice indeed. Thanks, folks.

The problem is only 1 guy has said something; everything is 2nd or 3rd hand. I believe it is true but have to wait until they actually say something. Don't want to chase someone out. The "ringleader" is the worst helicopter Dad I have ever seen; I do not think he is really gonna get a "better deal" at the new Troop as he thinks. Feel bad for our new SM who may take it personally but I think we will be better off.

Not exactly but the leaving boys have been snarking about. I'm with you I just want to get on with it.

I think if they hang around then the word will get out amongst the boys and they may be some friction. I visualize these parents as a great flock of helicopters flying off to bother their new SM.

I will put a small tarp at my feet before getting in and get into my legs and torso into the bag before getting in.

One of them jumped the gun and some checking found a whole bunch who were waiting until their boys POR's were complete. I feel the same way; once they made their decision it is hard to take their comments seriously.

I need some advice from the more experienced Troop hands. Our large Troop seems to have a number (6-12) families who wish to leave for a neighboring unit. The perceived complaints are: 1-dissatisfaction over boy-led meetings vs "super cub scouts". 2-dissatisfaction over Patrol-based vs Troop based activities. 3-concerns over bullying (though most seems to be internal to the boys who are leaving) 4-not kicking boys out of meetings for not being in uniform. (we give rewards for in-uniform and would rather them be there. Not my call but not our top issue.) The unit they are going could be described as a car camping, bling happy, Eagle factory. Different strokes. My question is how do we handle the situation before they leave? Their boys are already shirking patrol and POR duties. I think the parents are waiting out their terms. Do we address the parents who remain lest they think some terrible thing happened?