Tampa Turtle

Thanks for posting the Sandusky link; pretty sober reading. Innocent until proven guilty...sure looks like he is guilty as H*LL. Looks like a systematic predator. I was abused as a 4th grader (PE Coach) and didn't tell anyone. I was confused and thought no one would believe me vs. the coach. Eventually the word got around to my parents through some kid who must have saw something. I don't know what my parents did but one day the coach was gone. (He still coached and never lost his job). It was around 1970 and I think folks didn't want to "scar me" by making things public. So I was glad that in the Sandusky case several victims told their folks. I guess I wasn't too messed up by it. I was lucky. As my dad was terminal I found out that my dad had been raped as an RC Alter Boy in the 1930's. He became very very bitter and cynical toward all religion, passed that attitude to most of his children, and died an atheist. (My mom was a lay minister -I guess that evened things out) My dad lived with that shame for 79 years when it wasn't his fault. These abusers can leave a pretty big trail of damage. I make sure when the topic comes up with the boys during the 3 R's to remember that "Recognize" means it could be me (the ASM), an older scout, a coach, or whomever not just the stranger danger. We actually make the guys practice "resisting" by shouting, etc since some guys are really shy. I have found the "Gift of Fear" book (and sequel) pretty good for making arguments that we all need to trust our gut more. I have cribbed a few notes from that in talking to the boys. I think we must be careful about the difference of the "institutional response" vs "the actual response". My wife teaches sunday school and went through a much more vigorous YPT than we get. Yet the minister announced how proud he was that our church had some the toughest YP "policies" around. I reminded him policies are fine --if you are focused on CYA for the institution--you want them to be practices that folks consistently do actually protect the youth. One of our ASM's wife was an FBI agent assigned to targeting child predators and child porn. (I am glad I do not have that job) She gave us a pretty brutal presentation on some of what is going on and how predators can avoid background checks. I don't ant y'all to think we are overly paranoid but just trying to be vigilant.

Make sure you use the lingo: In the morning you don't say you had a good sleep you say "I had a good hang".

Yes I think some parents see "I paid $25 for the MB class at the science museum. I expect it *completed* when I pick him up. I see some "subtraction" at the MB classes. I see TOO MUCH use of the meritbadge.org worksheets. Boys think they look stuff up, fill them out, and they get the MB. I really liked the comment "Work with the boy, not the badge". I cut and pasted that one. I agree about summer camp and some parents. Had one boy whose dad insisted he take 6 and was crying because he did not finish one and his dad would be mad. At Summer Camp one of my roles was the fun police. Trying to make sure that the adults let the boys just wander and do something (as long as they told us where they were going) I try to teach some MB classes the old fashioned way--working with one or two boys at a time, discussing what they are going to do or have learned, giving advice or smoothing the way for them with contacts. I get very few takers. (that said the ones I do get make it very worthwhile)

I think some folks are confusing "foreign resident" with "illegal alien". If a person was a foreign resident why not? In Tampa we have CENTCOM and SOCOM and all sorts of foreign military with kids staying for 2 to 4 year postings. I have met former Scouts and Scouters from the UK, Jordan, Australia, Norway, etc. What Scout wouldn't want an ASM whose day job was a SAS survival instructor (yeah he lives down the street) As for illegal aliens most of the ones I have met through my government jobs (mostly migrants, a few students) are very skittish about signing ANY form that might call attention to their status.

Our Troop was we had a lot of parlor scouts wanting to defect to a prettier unit. They gave the SM an ultimatum and he replied "we are sticking to boy-led patrols and outdoor orientation". They said they are leaving which led us to push forward in that direction... Funny thing now is a lot of the "weak campers" (to be charitable) now want to stay seeing all the fun the other boys are having. Parents are in a ticklish spot.

Yes. Our CC is a SWFWMD Land Manager; which is very handy. I agree the PLC is the way to go. I do not work with them. I think the way it works now is the PLC picks what kind of activity they might want to do and the camping chair starts checking options. The PLC plans the program.

Yes you have mentioned that. I brought it up with our camping chair. We are on a swfwmd property this weekend, only group camping on 2,980 acres. Worked out to 596 acres a Patrol. If they would use it. Since we had to bring our own water it widens your choice of campsites. Lots and lots of critters, mostly bunnies, coyotes, armadillos, and cow skeletons.

On a side note (and I am nothing but side notes) Our most "high functioning" patrols (which are 2 of 5--some are struggling)rush to pick up their own Patrol camp site and keep going farther and farther from the adult location. The other three keep wanting to clump near the fire ring...

I forgot the best one! 4- SM asks the boy how to stop severe bleeding. One wag yells out "use the EDGE method, but make sure he doesn't bleed out before he is enabled!". Much eye-rolling and muttering over EDGE training and my faith in humanity is restored.

Yes, one year at Woodruff the counselor said just stick a compass and map in your day-pack and that would meet the requirement! We made them retake it but some parents complained. You would think the parents might understand that we are trying to keep their precious boys from getting lost.

I understand the frustration. When in your troop concentrate on the most important things first and the boys. There will be good times and depressing times. We just had a successful camp-out so I am feeling more optimistic. I saw: 1- Usually the adults put on the Friday cracker barrel for the boys. We had 5 boys volunteer to do all the prep (with minimal snacking) without asking. 2- Did some boys first backpacking hike. Some did not take advice on pack weight and distribution and suffered accordingly. Adult leaders let them and boys suffered but did not whine. Listened attentively to advice at end. 3- 2 Patrols forgot food, equipment. Adult Patrol had a surplus of food but turned boys away to beg and barter with other patrols. A year ago we would have fed them. So bit by bit progress is being made.

Cost is a real issue for me. I do not own 2nd family car so the those funds for purchase and upkeep go directly into scouting. The family "margin" all goes into scouting. I will readily admit is worth the money. Even with my boys fundraising if costs go up too much someone is dropping out. Perhaps me to do more 2nd job work. As for other sports or hobbies costing much more that may be true but I would never let my boys do them for that same reason.

I can give National the benefit of a doubt for motives even if I do not like the result. I just think that "the troops" would love it to see their leaders "as just one of the boys".

We have allowed. For some boys time-wise it is the only way to do somethings. In training they said OK. For Reading MB we encourage it as we see the Reading MB as a accomplishment for the reading challenged.

Lesser mortals have less Forum posts.

DL's who have attended a good Brownsea with their Webelos tend to start figuring it out. It can be hard. I have had to physically turn my chair around so I cannot see my son abuse --I mean erect-- his tent.

Sasha, We are going through the same process. I will let you know what our loss rate will be...Most of the boys leaving are the poor camping "problem children" and I will not miss not dealing with the whining. I will miss not being able to turn them into more self-sufficient individuals. I miss the loss of fellowship of some of the ASM's. I lost my "camping buddy" and feel a little lost. We agreed to disagree about the program and all that.

In retrospect I think it is wise to allow a WDL who crosses over to take a 6 month break or at least go on "light duties" before doing a lot of ASM stuff. You need the adjustment time. However the pressing needs of providing enough ASM's preclude this. We have been having our 1st year ASM's who go to Summer camp get SM training. All come back with new eyes. Even if we disagree with BSA national policy at least we are on the same page and usually doing something better. As a guy with some health issues I realize that I have a vested interest in the boys really knowing their stuff in case something happens.

My workplace allows me some flexibility for scouting but pays poorly so I am time-rich and cash-poor. Most of the family's in our Troop are the opposite so we are usually pretty well funded for equipment. We still make the boys do fundraisers, have scholarships, and help some kids along. We do lose some boys because of costs; I am usually upfront. However some of these families do little league and other activities. We try to raise money for specific purposes, i.e. a new trailer, etc than build up a big war-chest. Then the tendency is to find a use for the money whether we really should or not. I do think scouting is more expensive than in the past; especially equipment-wise. I keep encouraging more "dirt-bagging" when possible.

Eagle92, That was a great post on the evolution of requirements. I cut and pasted it. I understands Fred's position in that "unsigning" would seem unjust to a boy (though some boys "shop around" for an easy mark sign-off). I see the former DL who was never a scout (of which I am one) as a real problem in quality control of sign offs. They really need to get out of the "do your best" mode. It is hard. I am not sure you can deal with the problem of the boy-led quality control until you get the adults done. I am sure others might argue otherwise. I honestly dont know. On the one hand boys can be pretty tough on each other. On the other hand if they were bred on the "easy do your best" advancement track they may be easy graders as well. In our Troop we are gradually shifting to more boy sign-offs, or at least reports by PL's, Troop Guides, and Instructors will final sign off by Adults.

It is nitpicking but I hate pins too. If it is not important to me I will not wear it because they can be uncomfortable, need to remove them for field use, and I can never get them straight. If I find it significant I am afraid I will lose it at a campout ceremony. In that case I would prefer a knot to a pin device. I wear my SM training plastic "train" device on my pocket because I earned it. I sewed it on so it wouldn't fall off. I could go for some service stripes though.

Funny how folks seem (mostly) to like Webelos and Tigers. I too had a terrible 1st Tiger year but 2nd Tiger year (I have 2 sons 1 year apart) was memorable. What a great group of kids ( and the highest percentage of smokin' moms -- my wife did not like that) The great thing about Tigers is you can show them a compass or "hike" them around a parking lot and are impressed. If you meet them at the grocery store you are a real celebrity. I was so hard on my 1st year Tigers until I got good district training. I remembered hearing "there is no cub scout advancement police--if the activity meets the intent and is more fun then do it". That is when we did "Food Pyramid Bingo" instead of the book. And learned about the How-To Book (saved my life), and keeping a game/craft box in the car at all times. (Isn't that way you identify a cub scout leader?) It is really hard to avoid burn-out by Bears without someone else to come up with new ideas. Bears is a real critical year. If you can get them into Webelos you can get most of them to try scouts. I think the maturity level for a lot of boys seems to vary a lot in Bears and that makes it hard not to bore some or over-challenge the others. Also I always hated the powder blue neckers --kinda wimpy. As for neckers: (1) Wolf. The yellow is classic. (2) Tiger. The high-visibility orange makes it easier to track them across a website. (3) Webelos. The plaid is classic, but ugly. With the dangly device and hat at least you know they are not Boy Scouts. (4)Bear. Like I said it is a wimpier look than Wolf. Didn't Bear used to be Red? (5)Lion. (Just kidding - don't want to catch on something)

I meant to add it would be a better Troop.

A very good thought experiment. Realistically we would lose half Troop; roughly the ones who dont camp a lot and go to the MB academies heavily. I think their would be heightened interest in SPL and PL positions since that would be the best way to show "status".

KC9, I think that (servant) leadership means you should share the same conditions as your troops whenever possible. To not do so is bad for morale and distances you from what they experience. I do a lot of stuff that I would prefer not to do but to show the scouts that the old man is willing to tough it out with them. I think BSA should be run as a non-profit not a business but that now is a mute point.