Tampa Turtle

chaoman, Yeah we have a couple of boys with real disabilities and they manage to find there classes at camp. I mean if a summer camp can't direct lost boys who would. In those cases we have sometimes walked the path partway the first night if a boy thought he needed. If a parent wanted to do that I would switch with him so I, not the parent, would go.

Nothing major beyond home sick cases..."disaster" was an exaggeration on my part. Cub Scout camp is GREAT and I think it is wonderful for parents to spend time with their kids. The few times at Boy Scout summer camp a parent came it was usually because the kid was homesick and they either took him (and he never came back to the Troop) or he was worse after they left. I did see a parent at another Troop drive up to argue with camp staff over shooting time for their son. Other times folks have eaten with the boys and complained about the camp food tasting like...camp food. The few times parents have brought kids late or took em early. I think it detracts from the bonding experience...but it is their kid. I think that summer camp kinda creates its own "spell" of time out of the ordinary and seeing one's parents breaks that spell. Same reason that adults doing a lot of work texting or phone calls at camp do not get the same experience as those who go cold turkey. Occasionally a new scout parent goes to summer camp as an ASM but is really just keeping an eye on his kid. Occasionally we had some that were dead-weight and it caused friction...the rest of the adults were doing tasks and felt like they were servants...

"BUT HOW FAR DO WE GO?!" "WHAT IF THEY HURT THEMSELVES?" "WE DON'T WANT TO INVITE A LAWSUIT!" Chaoman, Well determining that line is why we get paid the big bucks. I wish I knew. I am only a "sophomore" leader. It is easier with other kids. I would say: "BUT HOW FAR DO WE GO?!" We (adults) are there for safety and emergencies. Also for transportation and facilitating events (like reservations and credit cards). We can offer suggestions and intervene if a boy is going to do something stupid like blow themselves up with a stove, throw knives at each other etc. Even in that case we should have taught them better. We are not there to make it easy or entertain them. Screwing up a tent setup is not an emergency. Forgetting to plan for enough food is reason to step in for Webelos but not Boy Scouts. Let 'em screw up. "WHAT IF THEY HURT THEMSELVES?" Little hurts -OK. We have had boys get grease burns and knife cuts. If they are camping there is some risk. Yeah I worry about this stuff A LOT. I think the G2SS has some good advice; for example, the buddy boats have helped us alot when boys do waterstuff. We follow the safe swim stuff pretty consistently and yeah we probably "overload" with adults on some trips. Depends on the age of the boys. At camp a boy broke his leg running to the dining hall across the wet grass. Bummer but not the end of the year. Still easy to say we have not had a serious injury (other than MY boys) in a while. But I worry a lot. "WE DON'T WANT TO INVITE A LAWSUIT!" Wellll...if you didn't figure this out as a leader you are making yourself more vulnerable than the average guy. Follow the BSA guidelines and you will get (hopefully) protected by BSA Legal. Go cowboy and take your chances.

I would say the best defense is a good offense: 1) Put 'em to work. That scares off the casual hang-around types. 2) Insist that they get trained. That gets rid of a bunch of others that will not commit the time. 3) I agree ASM's need time to transition from Webelos to Scouting. I didn't big mistake. 4) Don't be afraid to "reason" with a toxic parent. We try to move the physical location of the boys at the meetings. Start at flag pole, move to chuch rec center, break into patrols, etc. A lot of kibitzing parents can't keep up. Do all this and you have the problem parents down to a more manageable level.

Yes, parents can and do --often with disastrous results--visit during summer camp. They are allowed. As the recent FAMU band incident bears out it is really, really hard to root out hazing so anything that smacks of secrecy and people's kids is gonna be suspect. Right or wrong that is the way the wind is blowing.

THAT is the biggest missing piece of Scout Master training. Not to vilify parents but to get them to back off. I was doing "sign offs" on some Advancement and my MB last night at the Troop meeting and it drove me nuts how some moms and dads just hovered within earshot: "oh, oh he did that!". I don't mind them asking me what counts and what doesn't to help accommodate a boys needs (like what Troop activities might conflict with family holiday plans) but let the boys talk to me on my own. Yeah I sometimes see parents tell boys how to vote...I am no longer shy about gently telling them to let the boys make their own mistakes --this isn't about efficiency.

Initially I do not like the ATV, PWC idea. I see too many Yahoos in Florida with the Jet Ski's ruin a perfectly nice time by the beach. I think they are loud and obtrusive to the outdoors. I am not sure how one reconciles ATV's with LNT. However it is a good argument to teach boys to learn to use them safely and lawfully. And I know my sons loved doing the Motor Boating MB.

KC9 I will accept that OA is a wonderful organization with great benefits for its members but I think the red flag warning folks are waving is for real. A parent who is really concerned about his boy crossing over can come and observe at a Troop campout provided he just observes, does not interfere, and pitches in. So if he (or mom makes him) wants to give an initial comfort level the option, while not ideal, is there. I think telling a parent, in this day and age, no you cannot observe would raise a reasonable red flag to a reasonable parent. There needs to be a better response or solution to solving this dilemma. I think the folks that say that BSA would let OA hang out to dry over some incidents are dead on. And if OA is such a great thing then that would be a shame.

This is all pretty new to me. My exposure to OA has either been presented as "the Boy Scout Honor Society" (yawn) or "the Secret Society" (kinda weird or like the Moose or Elks (again yawn). If my boy wanted to do I and got elected I might let him go... That said I can't see how there cannot be a creative way to accommodate some parents. A hunters blind with periscope perhaps?

As a former Federale I used to joke about Alien conspiracy theories that if the Fed workers could keep that big a secret that long it would make me proud to be an american!

When I was timing out of my Pack I was at a campout where the vibe was weird. Turns out that Mr and Mrs Den Leaders were feuding because Mr Den Leader had an affair with (the very fetching) Ms Tiger Leader. Talk about explosive material! Fortunately Mr and Mrs went out soon to Boy Scouting and made whatever accommodations needed. But this triangle nearly brought down the Pack.

When I was 12 I read the Warren Report (yeah I was a boring kid) and it seemed pretty apparent it was a lone loony. JFK visited Tampa a few days before Dallas. Locals my age were boys then and recalled that anyone could get within 10-12 feet of him at his speaking events or the motorcade. It was just a different era. A few high school boys ran alongside the car and touched it.

Ah we had a patrol come up with the idea of a Patrol award which was a colored feather (in the color of the Patrol) given to an individual (adult or boy, parent, scouter, or scout) in or out of Patrol who rendered extra-ordinary service to the Patrol. I encouraged this "unofficial device" since they came up with it. So the Order of the Garter is not so far off!

What if a Troop spends money on, say buying tents for camp-outs. All boys "contributed" to the purchase but only those boys camping benefited. I guess the justification is that all boys had opportunity to go camping just like all boys had opportunity to ring bells. The problem with the schedule conflict argument is that it is unsolvable. There will always be choices and opportunities lost. That said IMHO this is not the hill to die on for any party. I would not "exclude" a boy or on the other side complain too much.

My sons do various color guard volunteering at the 4th, Memorial, vets Day when they can. Occasionally a event sponsor, say the VFW, may offer the boys pizza or hotdogs or stay for the picnic. Some times they "get" nothing. Other times we have a work day at the Scout Hut. We might throw out some old scout gear. Boys who are working that day might get first dibs on an old flashlight or spork. Or the SM buys the PLC pizza but on other projects the non-PLC POR guys work and get nothing but an "attaboy". Seems like it is just luck of the draw. You might get something for service but that is not the point; no one is entitled to it. I see this too much at local community efforts. Come to the city tree planting, work for 40 minutes and get hotdogs, a concert, T-shirts and prizes. My wife has stopped going 'cause she thinks we should spend the money and time just planting more trees. Is the reward or thanks system arbitrary? Probably. Fair? Probably not. Happens all the time. At my kids school get an A average cut in line at the cafeteria first. By son has learning disabilities and is taking regular classes. He works very, very hard and gets C's and B's. Best he can get but he will never get to cut in line. I focus on knowing my boy is doing the right thing, I am proud of him, and let him know. Service is its own reward. Anything else is extra.

A lot of our parents have the scout shop service do it or take it to the nearby military uniform tailors.

I have seen a few boys with horribly sewn patches--Frankenstein style--and always complement them if it is obviously boy-sewn. I think sewing should be part of the requirements again.

I understand. I had a shop teacher who had the scars from melted nylon socks. Yuck. I wonder if physical disfigurement was a prerequisite for shop teachers...

I have had a few embers on my nylon shorts at home. They usually burn a small hole and stop...

As was suggested here and reading the Advancement guide you can do partial periods of advancement anyway so I suppose you could rotate a job, do different jobs, or something. The SM approved project or "Instructor" positions give you huge holes to be creative.

I told my SM that Advancement fulfillment is a happy byproduct but not the aim of POR's, skills, and service.

Well my son is a bit fussy and the whole causes a slight draft in the nether bits so he requested a fix. Yeah my older sons Class A still looks pretty "experienced". He wants a shiny new one but his Mom says you can tell the real campers by the wear of their uniform...

Our policy is identical to Eagle732. We do require a uniform and book and have sent boys to the uniform closet for pants or to a friend to borrow some socks. They need to schedule it before though we will do everything to accommodate a boy who is making a last minute surge before the COH. We have a big troop so we have had to try to do them (mostly) once a month.

I think the graphs are great fun but as yesterdays Dilbert said "correlation is not causation". Still I used to do trend research and some trends tend to "shadow" each other. I can buy off interest in outdoor activity by NP. It is not perfect but makes a rough argument. The reality is we are unlikely to really get to the root of it. I think the prevalence of Eagle Scouts, which is well beaten topic, is in my limited observation that some Troops offer excellent support systems to help make a motivated boy get there.

This was a real helpful thread for me, thanks everyone. I think the emphasis should be on "working the boy not the position". I have gotten the green light from the SM to train the ASPL and set up a system where we touch base with the POR's and get them guidance/help if they need it. We will focus on doing the job to serve the Troop and not advancement. We also will allow younger guys compete for some of the jobs as well. In defense of Chippie upon reading the 2011 Guide to Advancement it seems to force you to create a paper trail if you want to deny a boy credit when he isn't doing his job. A simple checkoff and comments would work too.