TAHAWK

...and the wolves !!!

Hey, Beav, stop being accurate there! Certainly the new rule doesn't apply to "Super Soakers."

If you define "negotiate" as reaching a non-binding agreement, no reason why you can't try having Scouts negotiate for lodging and campsites. It would be a good experience so long as they don,t get too bummed out if the adult on the other side changes his/her mind. Even that experience would be a useful lesson, if handled correctly. Then there is, of course, the Personal Management Merit Badge, which has the potential to teach much of what you have identified as valuable ( a decent Merit Badge pamphlet would help). Before we had Senior Patrol Leader we had senior Patrol Leader. (BSA still does not understand why "the senior patrol leader" and "the patrol leader" are incorrect. Somehow they get "the Scoutmaster" right.) No reason a senior Patrol Leader cannot chair the PLC. Maintaining all the administrative overhead in a tiny troop does seem questionable. In fact, I think BSA should go back to chartering "Neighborhood Patrols." Of course adults create the structure (such as when Bill convinced West to allow Scouts to elect leaders).), Adults have had that function from the first patrols and troops in the UK. The luminaries we quote on the Patrol Method helped create that order, so there is no argument from authority to support a different system. I recognize that one might argue for a different structure from one's own personal view of how things should be, Bill Hillcourt to the contrary not withstanding. Adults do that all the time in explaining why the Patrol Method, or some aspect of it (like youth leadership) is all wrong today. "Maybe it worked then, bit kids are different.now." (A corollary to "Kids these days!") Under our structure, adults have the nondeligible duty to do their best to make Scouting a safe place for Scouts. Scouts can act as "force multiplier," and their good judgement and self-discipline makes the adults' job easier, but adults leading on safety issues is not supposed to be optional. Safety is an adult function. By "Andy"

I have voted for every educational levy on every ballot put in front me.. So I know very well it's not "free" - not even once. Let us at least based decisions on reality rather than myth. Someone always pays. For almost fifty years I was one of the "young people" paying for federal social welfare benefits for "older folks," including some years as a self-employed person paying the "employer's share" Then I started to collect the partially-taxable "benefits." If I am really lucky, I will still not make out on the "deal." But our society did - and will for the foreseeable future if the politicians stop kicking the can down the road. And somehow it still feels better to give voluntarily vs. "giving" at the point of a gun.

The exception that proofs the rule. Always exists. Hence, "Never say 'never.'"

It has a meaning that is probably not evident from it's literal meaning. For example, the Pres and others of his ilk speak of "free" education. What they mean is, "You should have more, and they should pay for it."

"Free" is a term of art and cannot be taken literally in any society. Even the anarchists in Spain had rules.

Negotiate prices for what? Reservations with whom or with what? Minors cannot enter into binding contracts. Does the grocer negotiate with any customer over the price of a couple pounds of ground meat. Will a council negotiate with Scouts to reserve a site for Summer Camp? If I am the SM of a new troop, as the Scouts meet in their patrols exclusively for a couple of months, what should I expect them to do? I hope I have learned to expect what kids that age CAN do. "To a boy's standard, of course." What they will be able to do will change with experience in doing. Coaching, encouraging, counseling, and being a resource can, I think, be separated from making decisions. To the extent that I would make decisions I would be depriving them of practice in making decisions - taking the balls, bats, gloves and balls and playing the boys' game - for them? No, for me.

14 in many cases, Usually First Class or better rank also required.

If you read the article, it is a defense of units not being Scout-led because they are "not ready" and have the wrong "culture." A a result, the boys do not run things as "smoothly" as the adults and so need more preparation to be "ready." "Oh we're all for it - when they're ready." Until then, we play and they watch.

Starting with Socialism.

Wow! I got $10/week in 1957, 1959, and 1961. And meals!

Play nice.

Joe Smith "According to Assistant Scoutmaster Joe Smith from Troop 1002 in Richmond, Texas, many Scouters mistakenly think a troop is either Scout-led or it’s not. Instead, he points out that being Scout-led is “a spectrum, not a condition; the level of independence given to the boys is dependent on the maturity and cultural personality of the troop.â€" Boy Scouts of America: [T]he Patrol System is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried out, but it is the only method. B.S.A., The Patrol Method (1930). "nless the patrol method is in operation, you don’t really have a Boy Scout troop.†B.S.A., Scouting.org (citing Baden-Powell) (September, 2015) (d) The membership of a troop shall be organized on the patrol system. Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America (2016). I'

Sno Balls? (I prefer the pink.) Twinkies ?

OK. Right. There is nothing inconsistent with the Patrol Method for a PL needing advice to ask whomever he wishes to ask. The SM is the head leadership teacher, but nowhere is it written that a perplexed leader (Scout) cannot ask for input from a another leader (Scout), regardless of title and on any subject .Indeed, channeling Scout's questions from adults to leaders (Scouts) is a traditional tool to encourage the Patrol method.: "Have you asked your Patrol Leader?" Let's say I overhear a teacher in a practice teaching situation telling his "class" of fellow education majors that North Vietnam "won" the campaign labeled the "Tet Offensive." Let's say further that I have a more nuanced understanding of the history of the Vietnam War. Do I simply take over the classroom? How does that help the teacher grow? How does such behavior by me impact that teacher's "rep" with the "class"? In Boy Scouting, the head Scoutcraft/advancement "teacher" for his patrol is the PL. BSA says that occasionally, such instruction may be on the troop level. After safety, It's the SM's No. 1 job, not to "teach the class," but to make the PLs better teachers. If they are not good "enough" at his/her primary job, the SM may need training in teaching. The language about the leaders being "ready" to lead (or the patrol or troop "ready" for Scouts to lead") is most commonly used to rationalize endless adult-leadership. ("We have been trying for eight years to become boy-led.") So if the troop is not "humming like a finely tuned machine," the adults take the bats, balls, and gloves from the boys, and the adults play the game of Scouting until they deem the boys ready to play to a satisfactory level. Bill addressed this matter of performance expectations. My SM told me he had attended a talk by Bill to Scouters involved in military dependent Scouting In Europe. When Bill delivered his famous, ":Never do for a Scout what he can do for himself," a Scouter got the floor to ask "To what standard?" My SM told me Bill looked surprised for a split-second and them replied with a smile, "Why to a boy's standard, of course." Again, it would be nice if BSA had a training course with the learning goal of the participants knowing what the Patrol Method is and a syllabus that actually explains the Patrol Method. It might include: "Let them lead in practically everything. Let them work out their own problems, interfere as little as possible—but be ever ready to give wise guidance—not when you think they need it, but when they seek it. Keep in mind that unwarranted, ill-advised interference discourages leadership and that those boy leaders of yours are "learning by doing." Mistakes, some of them serious, are bound to be made; therefore, be ever ready with a kindly and friendly spirit to urge them to try again. Help them occasionally with constructive criticism. But do your coaching on the sidelines always, never in front of the Patrols. And then, when the Patrol Leader succeeds in his job, praise him for it. Commendation which is justified and not overdone is an absolute necessity. Such statements of approval should be made occasionally before the interested group. They like it, and so does the leader, as long as it is short, free from 'soft soap,' and genuine." Bill "It can be a very messy business, and painful to watch. Meetings where the boy leaders are in charge can be very chaotic. And it can be very tempting for adults to jump in and sort things out, because that is what adults do. That is how they learn—even from disorganization and failure. The role of the adults is not the destination, but the journey. That is, our responsibility as adults is to promote the 'process' of Scouting. Adults understand that their role is to create a safe place where boys can learn and grow and explore and play and take on responsibilities—and fail, and get up and try again. B.S.A, Orientation for New Scout Parents (2016

As I personally believe that patrols ought to meet several times before the troop ever meets and that the Scout is to primarily experience Scouting in the patrol (which I see as the sum of BSA's official pronouncements), I am not sure how that flowy thing works in my "model." Of course, I am "not sure" about a number of issues. I go back and forth about the NSP, for example. Also, because it seems clear that under the Patrol Method - BSA's official "model," the leaders (Scouts) are elected and the SM is not supposed to directly lead at all, I not sure how that flowy thing works there either.. Read what I posted with an open heart about PLs going to the SPL when they think they need help. Cannot one be a coach and resource without being "in charge"? I hope so, as that is the adult role as BSA defines it (and Bill defined it) is supposed to be part of the Patrol Method. Of course, the PL is to lead his patrol. Hence "Patrol Method." And in the PLC, the patrols control the troop program, having more votes than the SPL's one vote. How a minor, the SPL, signs up any Scouts for summer camp escapes my limited experience and imagination -- unless the "summer camp" is not a council camp and does not require formal paperwork. One year my old troop did "summer camp" on private property in the mountains, and the owner didn't require any formalities. Otherwise, as BP found, adults will have a role. As always, the PLC had decided where the troop went to camp, for those troops that use the Patrol Method - that is Boy Scout troops. You also seem to have dumped Bill's entire chapter on how the patrol is loyal to the troop in which its Scouts are registered. Pretty smart guy, Bill. Probably BSA was right is calling him the most influential Scouter ever. I would be reluctant to ignore his teachings based solely on dedication to my personal version of Scouting, but everyone has to direct their own feet.

"With everything I have said about boy-led," Stosh, I have tremendous respect for you as a Scouter, but none of us is the final arbiter of what is, or is not, Boy Scouting, though many seem to think so. No one abandons BSA Boy Scouting without thinking their personal way is better,

"Rule #2, they need some prodding and a whole lot of support. I regularly call scouts and ask what they need help with. I know, the SPL should be doing this but we just aren't there yet." They sure do. But under the Patrol Method is this not primarily a responsibility of the PLs? PLs, in turn, might delegate this duty, in some aspects, to the Patrol Scribe or ASPL. If the PL discovers some need that he wants help with, he can communicate with the SPL who can go to the SM as needed. Maybe a training session on a particular problem is required, Mr. Head Trainer. A regular part of PLCs I have seen is the SPL going around the table asking each PL how "things are going" in his respective patrol. The SPL, in turn, should be watching for signs of problems in the patrols and identifying situations where a PL needs support.. If we are talking about advancement, that activity is primarily to be going on in the patrols. "[Patrols are] ... small groups of Scouts who camp together, cook together, play together, and learn together." B.S.A. , Orientation for New Scout Parents (2016). "[The patrol members] interact in a small group outside the larger troop context, working together as a team and sharing the responsibility of making their patrol a success." B.S.A., Scouting.org (2016) [emphasis added] "[The patrol is] the place where boys learn skills together, take on leadership responsibilities, perhaps for the first time." B.S.A., Scouting.org (2014) "Patrols will sometimes join with other patrols to learn skills and complete advancement requirements. [emphasis added] . . . At other times they will compete against those same patrols in Scout skills and athletic competitions. B.S.A., Scouting.org (2016) Helpful adults do not instinctively do things this way. When they see the pancake burning, their instinct is to be "helpful."

" When the TG came for his SMC there would be no check off for POR or for Scout Spirit on my watch." Seriously? Being appointed TG means he is IPOs facto not meeting the expectations for that post ? Then why did you appoint him TG? And what does being TG have to do with Scout Spirit? Stosh, get some sleep. You are obviously not an Owl. "No football was ever harmed in a game of British Bulldog!" Well, yes. "All election cycles are adult driven because the adults give the scouts a structure to start from." All "alls" are never correct. ​ I was with one troop for 25 years where the PLC decided the election cycles and position qualifications. Sometimes they liked six months. Mostly, they liked a year on the theory that six months barely have a new PL time to get settled in. ​Having noted those facts, the leader is whoever is leading, regardless of titles. The SPL and SM have to watch for that factor and try to shape a rational result. Always.

A legitimate role of the Scouter is to be a resource for the leaders (Scouts). "Have you considered X ?" So long as thew Scouts decide, giving them options is one of the reasons adults are there. My Scoutmaster observed that Troop 43 would play British Bulldog every Monday unless they were shown alternatives. "Conservative like cats." (Probably not an issue today as tackle football without officials or safety gear [except for stretchers and first aid kits] is doubtless frowned upon.)

Three years (every other year over a six-year span). Camp Rokili. Barton Flats, CA. The first Summer was my first time away from home for more than a week. and first job working for someone else. Great times.

A patrol is a small, largely self-selected team of friends who, under the leadership of a Scout they elect, experience a Scouting program they collectively plan. "You set up a structure—six to eight Scouts—and let them figure it out,’ he says. . . . ‘Boys are going to want to stick together if you can use their friendships to put together a team.’ B.S.A., Scouting (May-June 2012)(quoting child psychologist Dr. Brett Laursen )

Does the ball have a human face painted on it?

"The genius of American law is to reason by false analogy."