TAHAWK

When I was a Scout, the Paul Bunyan award could be followed (at least in our Council) with the more difficult Peter McLaren Axemen award. The former focused more on trimming and bucking, the latter on felling and splitting. I earned both and still have the patches. The environment in the mountains of southern California dictated that the "felling" was of old utilities poles set in holes in the ground. They were a tough proposition to cut with an axe. While our Troop owned one and the camp several, we never used double-bitted axes as they were regarded as unnecessarily risky. Few Scouts could have swung them accurately or effectively in any case.

I find a two-pound knife with a 12" blade "overkill" too. The khukuri, especially, takes some getting use to. But I didn't write the books suggesting such tools, put "Boy Scouts of America" on the covers, and place them on the shelves of our Scout Shop. Is it all that unreasonable to at least teach our youth how to safety use fixed-blade knives of more common proportions? I hoped we were discussing something beyond personal preference, namely "BSA Knife Policy." (This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

A fixed-blade knife is stronger and more useful for it's weight than a folding knife of the same weight. Cooks know that. Wood carvers know that. Those who clean fish and other game know that. Folding knives served the Romans under the Republic - that is, BC. Obviously, and as with the fixed-blade knife, folders have their place. A folding knife is better than no knife. Having said that, no author on wilderness survival, and certainly not the two authors of BSA's monographs on wilderness survival, suggests a folding knife as one's primary knife in the wilderness. (In car camping? Why not? You can often get a better tool when you need it.) What do they suggest? Here is some text from The Complete Wilderness Training manual, 2d ed. rev. 2007, Boy Scouts of America: "The basic, essential tool for camping and survival is a good, strong knife." "Kukri. This heavy-duty knife [12" of 1/4" or thicker blade] is traditionally used by the Gurkhas in Nepal. It is made from the rear spring of a truck...." "Back of blade is blunt and can be used for hammering." "Middle section of blade is not as sharp as tip and is used for chopping." Illustrations of bucking with a khukuri [spelling closer to 3-syllable sound] follow. Not sure I'd want to try those tasks with a SAK He also says: "A strong pocketknife is second only in importance to your teeth. It can be used for projects for which your large knife is too big (ee opposite.). Most bans on things are formulated by folks who, while they mean well, are fairly limited in their knowledge of the subject. Convenience is certainly a factor. That is why kitchen knives are the great killers - in the hands of killers. In the drawer they are just tools. As for "killing weapon," I guess that's how you see the knife. Again, the reality is that is was the MK II can-opener in actual application.

I thought you might suggest muzzling the knives = no honking.

I am interested in this topic both because of my outdoor pursuits and as a lens to view Scouting policy and practices on training youth. "I have a KA-Bar knife stamped "USMC." I dote on it for two reasons: . . . 2) It's the best and safest tool to split kindling that I know of." A Mk II Combat Utility Knife is intended as a tool of all work. However, it has a weak tang-blade junction and is not the best choice of a fixed-blade knife for batoning wood. A knife used as a froe IS probably far safer than an axe. So is it useful for Boy Scouts -- or at least some Boy Scouts -- to know how to split kindling with a superior tool? "But my personal knife is a Swiss Army folding knife with just a few gadgets." I presume you mean a SAK is what you carry most often. Me too. I like the "Farmer" due to the saw added to the basic "Scout knife" tools. It fills the same niche as the "scout knife" or "utility knife" with dependable quality. "What knife do I want to ENCOURAGE Cub Scouts to carry once they have their whitling chip? Answer: a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade or a pocket knife which will lock the blade open." When they need to split kindling what should they use? The literature only discusses (in a pathetically cursory way) the axe in its various manifestations -- a tool that works by (hopefully) controlled violence (unless used as clumsy sort of froe -- a knife). "If Scouts are permitted or encouraged to wear a sheath knife, some will, and others will want to get a bigger knife to display." If Scouts are permitted to drive a motor vehicle, some will drive too fast. And so on. Discuss. Are we going to ban things to prevent someone from merely "want[ing]" to do something? "So unless there were a reason, I would discourage wearing a sheath knife. I would encourage Scouts to carry a practical pocket knife with a 3" blade." It would be nice if everything went according to plan (I teach wilderness survival, and it seems thing rarely fail according to plan.) . But even if it did always go as per plan, when do they learn to use this tool? There must be some practical reason for fixed-blade knives as we have used them for millennia - even in the "city" How many of these youth DON'T have some fixed-blade knives at home? "I would have carving and chef's knives available for use while cooking, and other specialty knives as needed. I wouldn't bring my KA-BAR knife for Scouts to use to split kindling because it would be a too attractive nuisance that might be misused." So, although you think it's the best tool for processing kindling, they will not see it according to your plan? Or at least see it because you introduced them too it with your experience and insight? So who will show them? "Misused": I suppose an axe might be misused - certainly a match - a rope - a stick (club) - an LED light (can blind) - a metal tent peg (a good "shank"). Have you HEARD some of the "survial whistles? So if things cause bad behavior, what other things do we need to ban? "And there is one other issue. The KA-BAR knife has a 7" blade and is about an inch wide. The clipped upper part of the blade and its size makes it a deadly stabbing knife. I'd just rather not have that weapon available for someone to grab if they get angry." What will they grab? An axe? A "kitchen knife" (the No. 1 knife turned into a weapon all over the world)? A rock? Would a fixed-blade knife be less likely to cause rage to turn deadly if it were painted pink? Would it be helpful to inform them that the most common "military" use of the MK II Combat-Utility Knife (AKA "K-Bar") was opening C-rat cans, and it was hardly ever used as a weapon? "By contrast, a folding pocket knife with a 3" blade has a myriad of uses but is a lousy combat weapon." Certainly the MK II is better in the weapon mode than a SAK. But we had a lesson in what one can do with a box-cutter with its sub-1' blade. The hand and the mind make the weapon, which is perhaps why we are supposed to be about molding minds. "Also, if someone wants to split kindling with a knife, you can use a pocket knife like my Swiss Army knife and pound the blade through the kindling with a stick of wood. The KA-BAR is the superior knife for that task, but a regular pocket knife does OK." A SAK certainly can do it ---- in the right hands and with some luck (Don't be tired or anxious or very cold or badly injured.). But a SAK will do it, if at all, at a sub-"OK" level. Except in an emergency, batoning any SAK is misuse of a tool by any standard, and therefore violates "Thrifty." One good whack and you have SAK pieces, and we know how inexperience substitutes force for technique. (There are many massive and expensive locking folding knives that are a better poor choice than a SAK.) "To be candid, I'd simply prefer that boys not carry a knife that is an effective man-killing weapon when the 3" pocket knife is a better choice to carry." Effective like an axe (See "Franks") or stick (Many war clubs were and are made of wood.) or pressurized deodorant plus match or ammonia/bleach or screwdriver or sharpened tooth brush handle? All of these have killed very effectively. Again, it's the hand and the mind behind it, not the dead thing itself. "And when Scouts look at me to see what their Cubmaster or Scoutmaster carries routinely as a knife, they see the same folding pocket knife they are encouraged to carry. (USA Infantry Motto: "Follow Me!") So at least for me, the BSA policy of discouraging the carrying of sheath knives makes sense and conforms with my own biases." Ah, that urban myth again. 0____0 Leave aside the fact that the BSA does NOT discourage the carrying of sheath knives. Leave aside the fact that current official BSA literature illustrates and advocates use of extremely large knives carried in sheaths or scabbards. Setting the range of choices as MK II vs. a SAK is a "false dichotomy." While the MK II was deliberately selected as a tool of all work, including fighting, there are many, many patterns of fixed-blade sheath knives (as opposed to folding sheath knives) that have no sharpened "false edge" and are far superior for batoning wood (The sharp "false edge" tears up the baton.) and far superior for other woods tasks. If we confine ourselves for no apparent reason to military surplus, the far more common 225Q sheath knife, the most common U.S. military sheath knife of WWII, would be much better for woods use. Hundreds of "civilian" patterns of fixed-blade knives with blades of lengths from 1" to well-over a foot are out there. Some don't even have points. We cannot keep them away from this tool. It is the best woods tool for some purposes. "Trust should be the basis for all our moral training." BP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumblety-peg

Scouting.org: "Paul Bunyan Woodsman" Study the Boy Scout Handbook and the Camping merit badge pamphlet, and demonstrate to your Scoutmaster or other qualified person the following: 1. Show that you have earned the Totin' Chip. 2. Help a Scout or patrol earn the Totin' Chip, and demonstrate to him (them) the value of proper woods-tools use on a troop camping trip. 3. With official approval and supervision, do one of the following: * Clear trails or fire lanes for two hours. * Trim a downed tree, cut into four-foot lengths, and stack; make a brush with branches. * Build a natural retaining wall or irrigation way to aid in a planned conservation effort. "

Officially The right pocket location is for "temporary insignia" which must be BSA branded. (Insignia Guide 2009-2010, B.S.A. 1999 at p. 4) Only very limited, specified items may be worn on "official headgear." (Insignia Guide 2009-2010, B.S.A. 1999 at p. 3). This presents a powerful incentive. It is often better to have fewer rules and enforce them than to have a multiplicity of rules largely ignored. Imagine "The Fifty-Six Pages of Commandments."

I was also taught how to safely hand an open knife to another. However, my SPL who was teaching T'n'C (an Eagle!!!) observed that most of the time the knife could simply be laid down for the recipient to pick up, advice I never saw in official BSA literature but practical nevertheless. Today, as the Supply Division continues to sell fixed-blade knives, there is no advice regarding them in official literature. I suppose ignoring an issue is one way to deal with it. Sorta.

The blade-to-knee fit between standing Scout and hand axe is quite good. 0___0

There is a national BSA policy on knives. It's just that it is vague, ill-informed, and, since subject to a multiplicity of inconsistent local option, largely useless. PC but useless. "MOST Scout camps have restrictions on what kinds of knives and tools are acceptable in camp (for kids or adults both)." Indeed they do, but, to repeat, the ones I have checked on (27) allow "butcher knives" "in camp," and use "filleting knives" in fishing classes and fixed-blade knives in craft classes. Most (19) sell fixed-blade BSA official fixed-blade "cooking knives" (and large lock-blade knives) in their Scout Shop or on the camp property. (Many health codes prohibit folding knives for food prep above a certain number of diners. It is more difficult to remove food residue from a folding knife. "However, in general, as a troop you are best off erring on the more conservative side of things." We do in our Troop. Being conservative, our PLC set a rule (4") on fixed blade knives carried by Scouts with their TNC. "Trust should be the basis for all our moral training." "I would do "knife inspections" and ban any knives that are in bad condition or threaten to fold up or break under use (I find a few of these abused and cheap junk knives every year), and make sure that whatever they bring, they have sense to use it correctly and safely." A great practice. This is done by leaders - i.e. youth - or by Scouters? "Do remind the chaps that "guide to safe scouting" bans duels, knife or ax throwing, or using them to hunt and kill animals, small or large during scouting events." This ban is in accord with Scouting. It does not assume that things cause behavior but that appropriate behavior can be taught. "Medical experiments with knives are also banned unless they are an MD and have human review committee approval and parental consent. Oh ... and the Council permission ..." Say what? Are we missing an irony emoticon? "I think sharp metal objects suck the neurotransmitters directly from kids brains ... never underestimate what lack of neurotransmitters can do to behavior." Not to mention dull metal (and plastic) objects on wheels, girls, and peer pressure. The youth WILL be encountering fixed-blade knives and other things and situations that have hazards. We should be about teaching them. Sadly, all learning regarding fixed-blade knives has disappeared from current Scout literature, along with much good information on use of axes and saws.

I think you will find that "large sheath knives" are discouraged - whatever "large" meant or means. (It may sound good if you don't think about it.) Is a 10-oz folding knife in a sheath a "large sheath knife"? Is a 4 oz 6" blade Rapala filleting knife "large"? In certain applications, folding knives are a hazard. Think cleaning fish. Every camp I have looked into than absolutely bans "fixed-blade" knives, does not. Many sell fixed-blade knives. The most common accident involving woods tools? "Closed [folding scout] knife on fingers."

Bitten by a rabid Google when you were young? ^____^ 182,000 hits for "biodegradable balloons" The first is: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=biodegradable+balloons&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=4242422767&ref=pd_sl_2cda9iuhvm_e

Biodegradable balloons? Google is your friend.

"My point exactly: The cutting edge BSA "leadership" theory of the day took away what Baden-Powell called "real responsibility" (unsupervised Patrol Hikes and Overnights), and replaced it with "elected leaders" on a very short leash. " Yes, Rick, there is, and has always been, an adult role in Scouting. How "short" or long the "leash" of adult supervision was supposed to be depended on the situation. On Patrol hikes, the 1913 policy was that an adult be present. HBSM, 1st ed. 1913, at p.p. 142-143. Today, the policy is that two adults should be present. In between, the adult supervision called for by policy has waxed and waned. Policy, by the way, varied without relation to the absence of or multiple changes in Wood Badge over 62+ years. As noted, practice has been all over the lot.

First, as a 15-year-old I was to display myself as a reminder that boys (We were not "youth" at that time.) were capable of responsibility and, otherwise, fetch and carry as directed by real Staff - especially the QM. It all went by in a blur. But I have a bin full of syllabii, and I'll check next Tuesday when I'm at the Museum. Next, I thought your comment on your site about BSA not getting with the Patrol Method early on was interesting. We have already discussed in years past how BP didn't see the value of elected PL's for many years. That's not surprising for a Victorian crown loyalist from the ruling classes. Compare: "A Scout Master speaking of his Scout work and troop management says: 'I try to keep myself in the background, as much as possible. I have insisted on the boys who join my troop knowing what the purposes and objective of Scouting really is. I have made them enroll properly and I am making them do the work of the patrol and troop in their own way.' This Scout Master's advice is the solution to every problem that can come up in Scouting." Handbook for Scout Masters, Boy Scouts of America, 1st Ed. 1914, at p. 89. "Having properly instructed the members of the new troop the next step is to perfect the patrol organization. The necessary thing in the formation of the patrol is the appointment or election of a patrol leader . . . . [T]he best way perhaps is to let the boys appoint or elect their own leaders. The patrol formation is directly based upon the gang idea, and is in reality an organized gang under boy leadership and adult supervision. . . . t is better for the boys to elect their own leader as this is the natural leader-type who is most likely to be selected by them." Id. at 114. "The Patrol Leader usually presides at all patrol meetings." Id. "At a troop meeting the senior patrol leader [in seniority] usually presides . . . ." Id. at 115. "When the Patrol Leader occupies this latter position he is usually designated as the Troop Leader." Id. at 142. "The Patrol Leader should be given full charge of developing and carrying out the activities assigned to the Scouts under him." Id. at 141. So if the authors of this first Scout Master Handbook had entirely missed the "Patrol Method," as you claim on your website, they seem to have been in the neighborhood. At least. An American preference for elected leaders seems appropriate to the American experience.

1. Kudu posts: " The "Three Purposes of Scouting" are clearly defined by our Congressional Charter, the statute by which the government favors our religious corporation with a monopoly on Scouting: Sec. 30902. Purposes The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, [1.] the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, [2.] to train them in scoutcraft, and [3.] to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. http://www.inquiry.net/adult/bsa_federal_charter.htm So clearly our monopoly was imposed on the American people with the understanding that the mastery of Scoutcraft is one of the Three Purposes of Scouting, not a mere "Method" as the cult of Leadership Development would have us believe." Hello, Rick. English is a flexible language, but not so flexible that you can change "methods" into "purposes" right in front of us. You may have an argument that the Congressional Charter contemplated teaching methods not used today - or in the 1950's or 1960's, but you cannot torture "methods" into "purposes." 2. I have witnessed a total of seven Wood Badge courses starting with the original B.S.A. course, continuing with the second course four times, and ending with two viewings of the third course. Never saw a single attitude readjustment period for a participant. The vast majority of those who took the second course think (surprise!) it's better than the third course and say so repeatedly. They include five of our District Chairmen. Very difficult to readjust. Wouldn't even try. But you make it sound like great fun, Rick. (Oh, the exclusively 21st Century WB'ers think that's the best course. You can ask me what gent who took Wood Badge in 1964 thinks. Warning! They "let" him be CD for a 21st Century course.) By the way, hardly anyone took Wood Badge from 1948-1971 and relatively few until the latest course. So Wood Badge in it's second iteration as the instrument of Scouting's demise from the true path after 1916 is far-fetched on that ground alone. Heck, Wb didn't start here until the process was over thirty years along. 3. NYLT is said to be "junior Wood Badge." I think that is incorrect in many positive and significant ways, but NYLT is all about Patrols. The participants study, play, eat, and sleep separately as patrols. The patrols are part of a boy-led (this year, youth led) troop. James West would be horrified. (Hear Darth Vader breathing?) 4. Your comments on training of Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters over time is, as it has been before, misleading at best. Do we really have to go over this again, Rick? I can probably dredge up the posts. I would hate to because the current Scoutmaster Specific syllabus is, in many respects, horrible - boring and impossible to cover in "interactive discussion" in the time allotted. THAT is the legitimate hit on it. 5. It was the war on outdoor program that drove the boys away in the early 1970's -- and 1/3 of the adults. You can't even give away the wretched Handbook of the day with its "urban-centered" Scouting. It's good that people like you are around to watch for any sign they are trying that again. Everyone should be FORCED to read that handbook as a cautionary example. But now, Scouting faces a host of barriers to success, especially barriers to recruiting adults. No one seems to want to join anything. Ask the American Bowling Congress, Elks, or Masons. Summing it up as "only" lack of dedication to the Patrol Method (or due to Wood Badge) is simplistic at best, Rick. Otherwise that competing "traditional Scouting" would have run the table. How is it doing? 6. Truly outdoor methods are not what they were in 1916 - when Scouting was relatively weak movement and it's literature full of laughably inaccurate information. Oh how they had changed -- for the worse you would say -- by the "Golden Age of Scouting" when I, and 2/3 of all boys, spent some time in the program. Forget whether you are right about interpreting the language of the Charter about "methods." The far different methods of the 50's and 60's seemed to work fine - far better than 1916 in terms of attracting many, many more boys. 7. BP wrote repeatedly that the purpose of Scouting included training in character and citizenship surrounded by the bait of the outdoor program. His words have been posted here and can be again as needed. You can try to influence what is going on towards what you see as the better way, give up, or denounce an nauseam. I see you have not given up. Good. But any lesson that begins with name-calling has a reduced chance of taking -- even with those in the middle who may be convinced.

Hardly a "cult" hereabouts. Not remotely that controlling. More so if you want to serve on Staff. But where you have people, you have politics, egos, cliques, plotting, etc. Scouting is not immune. Adults could keep that in line, but training in general has never been important in my Council. Effectively, there has been no Council-level head of training for about ten years (years of vacancy and years of title-holders). So the training folk do their own "thing" - for better or worse - and sometime it is better. This third version of Wood Badge is a decent course with some very odd confusion in the text of the syllabus. (I'm told the syllabus suffered from a rewrite at B.S.A. to avoid having to pay royalties to the Blanchard folks who initially developed it.) Odds are, if you don't go in already negative, it's worth taking (but less so if you already took "Interactive Leadership" in the private sector). The secrecy is unpleasant. There is an inner group that selects Staff and senior Staff that is so secret that its membership is secret.

1. Fairly skilled after fifteen years in Scouting, twelve in a very active outdoor Troop. 2. I learned more about the eleven leadership skills or competencies that I had learned in White Stag as a 17-year-old. Also learned a lot about Dutch Oven cooking and eastern hardwoods. 3. Perhaps 2.5 hours a day - more at dinner than other meals. (I was a youth assist ["Look cheerful and don't say anything."] at a course in 1959, and the time spent on meals was about the same as on the original WB course still being taught at that time as on the second course that I took in 1984. Very rushed, of course.)

I have seen the new green jac-shirt. It has a touch of gray and seems of higher quality than the current red jac-shirts made by "CHINA." It is lighter weight than the old jac-shirts.

Our BSA Scout Store says they cannot get an Insignia Guide newer than 1999 book printed in 2009 {"2009-2010").

"Trust should be the basis for all our moral training."

One post and he's singing the praises of Chinese industry. Where did you say you're from and what do you do in Scouting?

It is not.

In order to protect the edges of "cooking knives" -- and the Scouts -- we have made protecting sheaths for them. Does that make them "sheath knives"? When I noticed that camp we attended this Summer banned "all fixed-blade knives anywhere on the camp property," I emailed the Program Director. asking if that ban applied to cooking knives, fishing knives, and the knives used for wood-carving. He promptly replied: 1) that he had no idea why the rule existed; 2) we should bring whatever knives we typically brought to camp; and 3) he requested that the Scouts not "walk around camp with big honking sheath knives dangling from theor belts." No problem. But, see, he's exercising judgment instead of being arbitrary.