TAHAWK

Absolutely great stuff.

Thank you for all the leads.

Sounds wonderful, and I am happy for them. But am I mistaken that, at least speaking to the past, you advocated patrol campouts without adult supervision as part of the "Baden Powell" "Patrol Method"? Was that in the context of believing that patrol campouts without adult supervision were withing BSA's rules?

Thank you. The help of other interested Scouters is certainly what I need and hope for. The sources for the linked site are largely secondary themselves and there is nothing on training Scouts before 1972. I hope to find syllabi or at least schedules to find more on what they were teaching.

Rick, I apologize if I have misunderstood, but I thought you had repeatedly advocated - in fact said you practiced - sending kids off on outings without adults. Whatever arguments can be made for such conduct, it clearly violates G2SS. You have seemed to have repeatedly invoked one -- of the many -- tests for advancement in early UK Scouting as the authority for that conduct. So when you use "Baden Powell" within fifty words of "Patrol Method" I take it that adult-free outings are part of that "method." Not so? As I scouted in the era before G2SS and there were no real problems with patrol (or multi-patrol) outings without adults when such outings could be arranged, I would prefer that BSA give SM's the option of approving such outings. However, Irving isn't listening to me much lately.

I am trying to collect material on junior leader training pre-NYLT for an article. I am especially interested in unit, district, and council-level training. I should have done a better job of holding on to all my paperwork from Scouting. I recall JLT as a combination of Scoutcraft and leadership instruction. The leadership sessions were more "how to" (how to encourage and handle advancement in your patrol or how to handle discipline) than the "Eleven Leadership Skills" I first encountered in California 1959. http://www.westtexasscoutinghistory.net/jlt_cvc.html org/Training_JLT_Patches.html http://www.crescentbaycouncil http://www.crescentbaycouncil.org/Training_JLT_Neckchief_Dist.html http://www.crescentbaycouncil.org/Training_JLT_About.html

Rick, We are honor bound to follow the rules. We should not ask of the youth what we are unwilling to do ourselves. Regardless of the wisdom of the policy decision, B.S.A. rules require that at least two adults be "present" on a B.S.A. Scout outing, whatever "present" means. On can follow BP's charge to get out if you cannot follow the rules, one can follow the B.S.A. rules AND do what one can to make B.S.A. Scouting exciting, attractive, and educational for youth with those rules. An alternative is youth work outside the ambit of B.S.A., as you have advocated. That is where most youth work, for better or worse, is done. B.S.A. membership numbers benefit from fun and exciting program that keeps the promise of youth leadership. That would be "fun and exciting" to youth. Most of the unit programming that I have witnessed in the last thirty years is fairly dull. The decline in outdoor skills and outdoor skills training is pushing it further in the wrong direction. The leadership training the vast majority of adults receive is mediocre and dull if the wretched syllabus is followed closely (Which is why so many training teams use it only as a theme.). Roundtables could be great resources. Could be. The "wise old Commissioner" could be a great resource - if he existed in reality. "Troop Program Features" are uninspired and stale. Only Scouting [magazine] seems to have people who see the need to light things up, and that staff's opportunities are limited. For the usual variety of reasons, adults seem as eager as ever to usurp the leader roles. I see absolutely no effort by B.S.A. or any of its paid arms to hold them to account -- either today or fifty years ago. Some volunteer leaders are willing to talk plainly to adults who will not even try to use the Patrol Method, but they have only moral authority. In my first life in Scouting, it seemed like adults were more willing to follow the rules. B.S.A. does a poor job of even explaining to adults what The Patrol Method is. The pieces are there in the literature, but not pulled together by B.S.A. into a list of commandments or tests. Most adults, not understanding the Patrol Method and finding it unnatural, will dig out the pieces for themselves -- or even try. This situation is a great opportunity for motivated volunteers to help compensate for the performance of B.S.A. Wood Badge and NYLT, which you find odious, do a good job of explaining, demonstrating, and guiding on the Patrol Method, but they remain an experience for a small minority. There is no follow-up beyond the WB Ticket because that is seen by B.S.A., somehow, as "taking time away from Scouting." Physical fitness benefits from exercise and good diet. That is not dependent on following the Patrol Method and can be supplied in a prison camp The members of the local H.S. track team seem in fine shape although their activity is at the polar opposite from anyone's idea of the Patrol Method or Patrol System. Would more outdoor program help? Of course. Anything that would get kids away from the screen would help, but we have what you call "Webelos III" troops that backpack every other month. (Wouldn't a "Webelos III" troop hardly even meet as a unit? Would it's patrols not meet every week and the troop only once a month - like a Webelos?)

"Why is it than when BSA millionaires ponder how to "boost membership," they never examine how Leadership Development killed the "Real" Patrol Method in 1972, when membership began to plunge. Bring back the "Real" Patrol Method: Boost membership and fight obesity. Yours at 300 feet, Kudu" I suggest that attributing the fall in membership after 1972 to one of many changes in leadership training, including those designed by Bill Hillcourt, is unsustainable in fact or logic. It is also contrary to your expressed opinions on the "New Scouting Program" of 1972, which, as you know, sharply deemphasized the Outdoor Program in favor of "urban Scouting."(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

A Scout is . . . .

Hearing from Rick and his ilk about what a "real" Scout is certainly thought provoking. I note that we have had some guidance over the year about what a "Scout" is. On my honour I promise that:- 1. I will do my duty to God and the King. 2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me. . 3. I know the scout law and will obey it. 1. A Scout's honour is to be trusted. 2. A Scout is Loyal to the King and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers. 3. A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others. 4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs. 5. A Scout is Courteous. 6. A Scout is a friend to animals. 7. A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or scout master without question. 8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances. 9. A Scout is thrifty. On my honor, I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight. A Scout is: Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. While one may argue that BP and Bill missed something absolutely central to being a "real" Scout, it seems dubious to appeal to their authority for the proposition that a "real" Scout is something they both somehow left out of the Oath and Law, bright and articulate as they were. I love camping. I have uncritically accepted for decades that wilderness backpacking is Scouting at its best. The most impressive troo0ps I have seen were strong in the outdoor program. But maybe I have been wrong. Perhaps Scouting at its best is gathering food for the hungry. BP might have said that helping an injured animal was Scouting at its best. At least BP and Bill were not confused about methods vs. objectives. If a boy emerges from Scouting as a good man, a good citizen, and fit in mind and body, I think we have done well - and exactly, explicitly, and emphatically what BP and Bill said over and over was the objective.

Hard to pay attention to what's going on around you if you are locked into some artificial electronic world. Interferes with learning about nature and not safe. And even more unsafe in the city. Tests for UK Rank Advancement Through the Years http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/tests.htm http://www.boy-scout.net/en/page1/page35/page35.html

Sounds like a unit they would "like better," would (like the parents) be doing no favors to the Scouts. One can only hope.

Some Philmont trails are all rock and will eat up jogging or "approach" footwear and the feet inside such. Other trails are like a city park. Your itinerary can include 18 trail miles with 3500 vertical foot climb and no water after Noon or at the night's campsite. Seems fairly real.

While the most common woods tool accident is "closed blade on finger," the rationale argument for folding knives (slip-joint or locking) over fixed-blade knives is that the folder is safer closed than a fixed-blade in a sheath. Also, many sheaths are trash and little obstacle to a sharp blade. Then there are the arguments based on aichmophobia. By far, the most commonly possessed knife that is optimized as a weapon is a folder made by "CHINA" with a so-called "tanto" point. As BSA has now formally recognized its obligation to teach the proper use of most fixed-blade knives, things may get better.

Useful Camp Gadget?

The U.S. military did a survey to determine the use made of the Mark I and Mark II Combat Utility knives and the 225Q knife. No. 1 use, and exceeding all others combined? Opening C-Rat cans.

Not only a can opener, a bottle cap lifter. ^___^ Holy 1960, Bat Man. Boy's Life on sheath knives - June, 2008 Q. Im going on a camping trip with my troop, but my hunting knife broke. I see a lot of different hunting knives advertised. How do I know which one to buy? Knifeless Neil, Summerville, S.C. A. The best type of knife for camping trips and most any other outdoor activity, for that matter is a short, fixed-blade knife with a beefy handle. Folding pocketknives can fold up on your hand while cutting. Not fixed blades. And remember: When it comes to blades, bigger isnt always better. Avoid blades longer than four inches. A small, sharp blade can cut just as well as a long one, but its safer to handle and easier to maneuver in tight spots. With a good fixed blade youll be set for most anything the outdoors can throw at you whittling, cutting, notching, butchering, filleting, even spreading peanut butter. Here are two of my favorite fixed-blade knives: Buck Diamondback Guide ($27; http://www.buckknives.com/) This knife has a 3 1/8-inch-long drop-point blade with a texturized rubber handle. SOG Field Pup ($60; http://www.sogknives.com/) A four-inch stainless steel straight-edge blade with an easy-to-grip handle and nylon sheath.

Statement by the Boy Scouts of America regarding knives: "A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility." Guide to Safe Scouting, at p. 33, "Knives."

Put an axle across the back of a wheelbarrow. Presto! Three wheels! Less stable than the restricted 4-wheelers, but not restricted. See, RB, word-smithing.

"Appreciate the person on FB who noted that Cubs now can't use hand saws. Insane. " What, another directive bars Cubs using handsaws? Not the one referenced by the OP as a Cub is a Youth up to 14.

Richard, a B.S.A. Hot Spark will ignite finely-divided magnesium-aluminum shaved from the blocks sold by Scout Shops nationally. The magnesium-aluminum block sold by B.S.A. (AKA "Doan Tool") even comes with a ferrocerium rod in its side for ignition. Tinder is, naturally, meant to be highly flammable. No B.S.A. literature suggests that a fire-extinguisher be on hand beyond the "fire bucket." The Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet does, however, warn that dryer lint (used as tinder) is highly flammable. 0___0 As to the topic of the thread, the article you cite gives conclusions about the danger of liquid alcohol as a fuel ("But the use of liquid alcohol as a fuel is very dangerous.") without giving any reasons for that conclusion. Because all fuels present risks (Beaver's MSDS for a brick), it's the relative danger (calculus of utility) that counts. Given no hint as to the other fuels he concludes should be used, there is no way to judge the validity of his conclusion that liquid alcohol chaffing dish stoves should be banned in China. I do find it interesting that "Most flame burn injuries of this type were caused by misuse of the alcohol-burning stove." ("Most cases occurred when 95% liquid alcohol was added to an alcohol-burning chafing-dish stove when the temperature of the stove was high enough to ignite the alcohol, causing burns in people in the immediate vicinity of the stove.") I think you would find that adding naphtha (Coleman Fuel) to a stove hot enough to cause ignition would also produce even more dramatic results and that the risks do not vary if the stove is home-made vs. not home-made. You might wish to review this article that concludes that alcohol is significantly safer as a fuel than gasoline or kerosene http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/files/ethos2005/pdf/stokes_paper.pdf Naptha (Coleman Fuel) is, of course, even more flammable. http://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/naphthamsds.pdf. One might conclude from the literature, including MSDS's, that favoring far more flammable fuels over alcohol is questionable. So we question.

"'Oh, good. So I can still cook things with my block of magnesium! Beavah, How do you light and contain it? What size Class D Fire Extinguisher do you pack in with it? Richard PS: Thermite welding was part of my former life. Amazing process. PSS: Et al, sorry I won't meet your expectations on specifics. I did offer "Some hypothetical illustrations and hopefully they will help expand the "I do not see how that's dangerous" box several are trapped in. I would suggest google is your friend and to go a little farther down the rabbit trail here is one of my favorites from the search: http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_16/num_3/text/vol16n3p122.asp (and yes, admittedly not scouting centric) admin | IP: Logged"

Good, Rick. You managed to try to insult everyone else on the forum. ^___^ Richard, the article gives conclusions about the danger of liquid alcohol as a fuel ("But the use of liquid alcohol as a fuel is very dangerous.") without giving any reasons for that conclusion. Because all fuels present risks (Beaver's MSDS for a brick), it's the relative danger (calculus of utility) that counts. Given no hint as to the other fuels he concludes should be used, there is no way to judge the validity of his conclusion that liquid alcohol chaffing dish stoves should be banned in China. I do find it interesting that "Most flame burn injuries of this type were caused by misuse of the alcohol-burning stove." ("Most cases occurred when 95% liquid alcohol was added to an alcohol-burning chafing-dish stove when the temperature of the stove was high enough to ignite the alcohol, causing burns in people in the immediate vicinity of the stove.") I think you would find that adding naphtha (Coleman Fuel) to a stove hot enough to cause ignition would also produce even more dramatic results and that the risks do not vary if the stove is home-made vs. not home-made. You might wish to review this article that concludes that alcohol is significantly safer as a fuel than gasoline or kerosene. http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/files/ethos2005/pdf/stokes_paper.pdf Naptha is, of course, even more flammable. http://www.collectioncare.org/MSDS/naphthamsds.pdf. One might conclude that favoring far more flammable fuels over alcohol is questionable. I am copying this to the current thread on chemical stoves.

If our opinions have no weight ("can't change"), why express them? We had an opinion about The New Scouting Program. Change happens.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

This is but one issue, of many, where "safety" is invoked. (Think of mandatory adult "presence" and the downplaying of patrol over-nighters.) This is one issue, of many, where pronouncements come down that appear, at least on first examination, to be less than completely thought through OR clearly expressed. (Think of soccer as equivalent in utility to the Outdoor Program.) This is one issue, of many, where the corporation makes decisions that are not well-received by its "sales force." (Think of . . . ; oh, never mind.) Questionable (Literally - simply subject to being questioned.)decision-making processes and practices often start with "unimportant" issues and proceed from there. Any single decision is usually not worth getting "wound up" about. The sum total? Think "New Scouting Program."