TAHAWK

Because a patrol is supposed to be, and operates best as, a group of friends, we need friend-based patrols and no others. At least aim at the right target.

Having read the linked material, which states that a "campout" may be held indoors, I feel that merely lighting the JT forms on fire at a district meeting is insufficient. The fire need to be set at another location entirely -- some distance away from Ohio and to the southwest.. I believe this is simply another example of the tendency of the corporation to have employees, with no broad knowledge of Scouting, off in thier own little bubbles pontificating about some aspect of Scouting in a way that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the same website, B.S.A. declares: "Organized camping is a creative, educational experience in cooperative group living in the outdoors. It uses the natural surroundings to contribute significantly to physical, mental, spiritual, and social growth." It is like Gulliver's Travels in its darkest aspects: the work of giants being pulling down by Pygmies -- with due aploogies to the real Pygmies for the invideous comparison.

Having read the linked material, which states that a "campout" may be held indoors, I feel that merely lighting the JT forms on fire at a district meeting is insufficient. The fire need to be set at another location entirely -- some distance away from Ohio and to the southwest.. I believe this is simply another example of the tendency of the corporation to have employees, with no broad knowledge of Scouting, off in thier own little bubbles pontificating about some aspect of Scouting in a way that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the same website, B.S.A. declares: "Organized camping is a creative, educational experience in cooperative group living in the outdoors. It uses the natural surroundings to contribute significantly to physical, mental, spiritual, and social growth." It is like Gulliver's Travels in its darkest aspects: the work of giants being pulling down by Pygmies -- with due aploogies to the real Pygmies for the invideous comparison.

Having read the linked material, which states that a "campout" may be held indoors, I feel that merely lighting the JT forms on fire at a district meeting is insufficient. The fire need to be set at another location entirely -- some distance away from Ohio and to the southwest.. I believe this is simply another example of the tendency of the corporation to have employees, with no broad knowledge of Scouting, off in thier own little bubbles pontificating about some aspect of Scouting in a way that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. On the same website, B.S.A. declares: "Organized camping is a creative, educational experience in cooperative group living in the outdoors. It uses the natural surroundings to contribute significantly to physical, mental, spiritual, and social growth." It is like Gulliver's Travels in its darkest aspects: the work of giants being pulling down by Pygmies -- with due aploogies to the real Pygmies for the invideous comparison.

Thank you, dcsimmons. [h=2][/h]

ISSUE: Is an overnight stay in a heated cabin a "campout." (As regards which, are the requiremens for the Camping Merit Badge authority of any kind for defi9ning "campout"?) The "corporation" is The Boy Scouts of America, Inc., a 501©(3) non-profit corporation. All the frantic interest is coming from adults who want to sure "they" win "Gold."

Alas, Scouting is often a "thing of the classroom" in this lesser age. And the literature is often an embarassment. It is as if they were writting in French (Scouting) but none of them speak or write (Scouting). So we get many badly-written materials that have internal inconsistencies and outright errors. And if one points out the "issues," however politely? You get silence, brush-offs, and no action. Feedback is NOT accepted as a gift. These are just not, taken as a group and with individual exceptions, particulaly impressive folks. HERE . http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TrainingModules/Orientationfor NewBoyScoutParents.aspx is some text by someone with talent and understanding: ""In Boy Scouting, the role of the boys is to have fun activities and generate achievements. The role of the adults is not [achieving] the destination, but [taking] the journey. That is, our responsibility as adults is to promote the 'process' of Scouting. What is important for us [as adults in Scouting] is: NOT the food on the campout, but that the boys cooked it. NOT a sharp-looking flag ceremony, but that the boys put it together. NOT who would make the best Patrol Leader [in our opinion], but that the boys elect one. NOT that Johnny learns first aid, but that Billy teaches him. NOT that we cover everything on the meeting agenda, but that the Senior Patrol Leader is in charge. Our goal is not to get things done, but to create a safe and healthy environment with the training and resources that the Scouts need, and then let them do it. It can be a very messy business, and painful to watch. Meetings where the boy leaders are in charge can be very chaotic. And it can be very tempting for adults to jump in and sort things out, because that is what adults do. But we have to remember that that is the process of Scouting. That is how they learn—even from disorganization and failure. We just have to remember that our business as adults is not the same as the business of the boys. It is up to them to get things done. It is up to us to make sure they have what they need, but (within the bounds of health and safety) not what they do with it." Imagine, the writter understood something about The Patrol Method. He (or she) may even understand about the necessity of separateness as part of the TPM - separate meetings, Scoutcraft instruction, hiking and camping -- spending more time in the patrol than in the troop. Still looking for a current, coherent and complete statement of what constitutes The Patrol Method according the B.S.A. I have aked a good many volunteer and paid Scouters for help. A few were sure they could find it, not no one has done so to date. The piece parts are scattered here and there, but it nowhere seems to exist in a single statement. In the meanwhile: "The patrol is the team that playes the game of Scouting. The troop is the league."

Cleveland has a museum that had gathered up boxes of records, including scrapbooks, from 1908 forward. These records were saved over the years according to the inclinations of whoever was around, so throughness varies. No one has made a history of this raw material, and we are in a race to scan them before they turn to dust.

And, again, how many of you are trained professionals in dealing with youth violence? Oh. Sorry,"lad misbehaving"? Maybe you are, but I suspect few Scouting volunteers are professionals. There have been instances in my areas of Board Certified experts voluntarily giving their time to look into such instances because Council asked them to do so. Do they get blown off as well? After we communicate what happened to the parent(s) of the lad with the knife, who else has a right to be told? The parents of the other lad? Parents of other lads who will be around that lad in the future? And we still don't know exactly what happened. Did his merely display the knife? Did he point it? Gesture with it? What was the knife-pulling lad's - attitude? Smiling? Snarling? What words, if any, accompanied pulling the knife on the other lad? We don't know if this was as instance of "ordinary program" pulling a knife on someone or extraordinary "program" pulling a knife on someone. Explain the difference, please, so we mere mortal clay can know in the future. Why is it people can accept that first aiders are not medical pros but think they are professionals in dealing with matters of what goes on in kid's brains?

We do not have all the relevant facts. To me, whether a troop too small to run a Scouting program survives or not is of limited relevance. There are probably other opportunities for the boys who want to go on. They might even get to experience Scouting. This is not just the Troop's or TC's call. It happened within Scouting and within one or more jurisdictions. As I recall, Scouting has had some problems thinking it could deal with aberrant behavior as if the rest of society has no interest to be protected. "Cut a corner off the Totin' Chip. Reiterate the principles of the Totin' chip." IMO, this is a poor joke, whether actually meant or not. IF a person threatened another person with a knife, that is serious and criminal. Few of us are professionals when it comes to dealing with violent behavior. Recall Master Dirty's advice: "A man's got to know his limitations." Our DE's average tenure is under 18 months. They are liberal arts BA's with only BSA training. Regardless of theory, they do not seem like much of a resource. However, Council should have access to trained professionals, as would Child Protection Services.

Summer Camp Merit Badge Mills. Life Saving can be avoided. On balance, much easier = 4x as frequent. Not that some MB's are not harder than fifty years ago, Cooking for example.

Cleveland Public Schools have guns in every school. Dangerous here in the country? Google: scout OR scouts killed OR wounded OR shot OR shooting and see what you get. This thread is a solution in search of an issue.

Interesting thread. Why would a survivalist who fears the breakdown of society want "frangible" rounds? Frangible rounds have less penetration in return for less likelihood of ricochet, hence their use by Sky Marshalls as a necessary third best in a pressurized aircraft crowded with people. If you want to mow people down, you want hollow tips, soft point - a least full metal jacket. Most people who are the most afraid of firearms know the least about them, doubtless adding the fear of the unknown to other drivers of anxiety. Hence the "assault weapons ban" that banned flash suppressors but allowed compensators (for better rapid-fire accuracy); banned telescoping stocks but allowed folding stocks; and did not ban a single fully-automatic rifle (the type of rifle that was known as an "assault rifle" until BATF got creative), a class of arms heavily restricted (but not banned)since the 1930's. (Odds are overwhelming that you too can legally own a real machine gun if you can own any firearm. It's simply very expensive to get the permit.) Re CPR: Deaths from heart attack in the wilderness are about one-third of the total of wilderness deaths and exceed deaths from gun shot by about 34 to 1 per the only statistical studies of wilderness deaths. Statistically, CPR training is far more relevant to safety than firearms. More people are killed by motor vehicles in the wilderness and on Scouting outings than by any other cause. IIRC, more Scouts are killed thus than by all other causes combined. One might worry about the driving SKILL and records of those intrusted with our children, but I am aware of no testing or certification program. And of course none of you ever drive 60 in a 55 zone with Scouts aboard, right? (Recalling how I am routinely left "in the dust" by dad's -- and the Scoutmaster -- roaring off to get home for the Sunday football games.) We know from the national 55 limit that driving slower saved tens of thousands of lives. BSA rules have been invoked. Funny about rules. People -- none of you I am sure -- often pick and choose what rules they follow. For example, YPT prohibits a Patrol Leader from doing anything to keep order in his patrol as he is bidden to do by the Patrol Leader's Handbook. That behavior would be, in standard English usage, keeping disciple, and all discipline is to be by adults. Much less could the PL assign KP to someone who did not do KP when he was assigned to do so. Calling those with whom you disagree "crazy" or the equivalent violates the most fundamental of the rules of Scouting - the Scout Law. And of course none of you drive 60, or 65, or 70, or 75 in a 55 zone, right? (GTSS)

Reviews http://www.backpacker.com/may-2012-gear-review-golite-jam-50-backpack/gear/16629 http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=61723 READ THIS IF NO OTHER:

Scouting came to the Cleveland area in 1908, solely on the basis of "Scouting for Boys." By the time the BSA appeared in 1912, there were 99 troops in the area covered by the "Cleveland District." This was a common situation. Early Scouting got lots of newspaper coverage. The daily stories report hiking, camping, scoutcraft "field days," scoutcraft contests, meeting activities, service projects, and Scout leagues for basketball and softball. One troop hiked from Cleveland to the Ohio River and back as their Summer activity.

"#3 I have seen video of some very unintelligent Repubs also, not on this issue, but others.. Such as a group of uninformed gun owners out on a Roadside stating "Save our guns.. Vote so & so" When asked about what the other candidate did to threaten their gun rights, not a single one in that group knew.. In fact, he had done nothing.. Just someone told these clowns he did, gave them signs and sent them to look like fools on the side of the road." Moose, the world is full of the uninformed. Hard to find facts amongst the special-pleaders. As for "unintelligent," there is the "curve." Some are at one end and some at the other. For whatever combination of lack of information or lack of intellect, I get emails every day from my friends on each side with attachments that flunk the Snopes test every time. Try being a tree-hugging, labor-unionite, fiscal conservative, pro-defense type and see what it gets ya'. But gun-ownership/ammunition-ownership rights is perhaps not the best topic around which to suggest that voters are confused about who is for 'em and agin' em. And it is not about parties except at the national level. "Pennsylvania is Philadelphia and Pittsburgh with Alabama in between" James Carville

1. Snarky remarks? How Scout-like. 2. Anyone who actually knows what the corporation means? (Yes, we all have our ideas.)

Putting aside what I think, what I thought I "knew" and why, what is a "weekend campout" for purposes of the requirements for Journey to Excellence?

Name-calling. Quite inspiring. 0___0

When I present sessions on uniforming, I always have this thought: BSA is less interested in uniforming -- uniformity of dress -- than in where you buy what you wear. If BSA was interested in looking the same, we would not have several different versions of shirts/shorts/trousers that look different from 100 feet away in decent light. Instead, we would have a uniform, which we do not. (Not even to get into the historic problem of variation in dye lots and "Once good, always good.")

The age limit was imposed in 1952. But there was some special deal for Explorers who were also Assistant Scoutmasters from 1959-1972. They could work on Eagle to age 21.

Moose, I could have been clearer. I wanted evidence that Bush, whose deficit his last year was a fraction of Obama's average deficit, was actually responsible for the deficits in the Obama years. I didn't say you made it up. But if it makes you happier, go for it. So your first article says the spending spree started before Obama. That's only half-truth. It started before the Shrub before the Bush and before Brother Jimmie. Congress started dipping into Social Security to meet current expenses under The Trick, and now all we have are thew IOU's - no actual funds in the Trust Fund. The G has been spending like drunken sailors (Sorry drunken sailors.) for almost all my life - D's, R's, and whatever. So your article says Obama wanted to make it worse but the House frustrated him Good. "By no means did Obama try to reverse that spending. Indeed, his budget proposals called for even more spending in subsequent years. But the Congress (mostly Republicans but many Democrats, too) stopped him. If Obama had been a king who could impose his will, perhaps what the Republicans are saying about an Obama spending binge would be accurate." I want government that works to prevent my grand-kids from facing an ever-increasing, economy-crushing mountain of debt. Do I trust Romney to lead in that direction? No. Could I be sane and think Obama wants to go in that direction? Hell no! Read the article you cited, or is it only good for what you wish to believe? As for any President running over Congress, that's been tried -- and recently. Does not seem to have worked or be working. Tax cuts temporary? Absolutely. It all property belongs to the G, they tell us how much we can keep. It's all for the general good, even if some are more equal than others.

The New Republic Blog from the N.Y. Times from a left-wing blog. That's about as reliable as Fatso. Not sure why you cited CBS, but thanks: "(CBS News) The National Debt has now increased more during President Obama's three years and two months in office than it did during 8 years of the George W. Bush presidency. The Debt rose $4.899 trillion during the two terms of the Bush presidency. It has now gone up $4.939 trillion since President Obama took office. The latest posting from the Bureau of Public Debt at the Treasury Department shows the National Debt now stands at $15.566 trillion. It was $10.626 trillion on President Bush's last day in office, which coincided with President Obama's first day. The National Debt also now exceeds 100% of the nation's Gross Domestic Product, the total value of goods and services. Mr. Obama has been quick to blame his predecessor for the soaring Debt, saying Mr. Bush paid for two wars and a Medicare prescription drug program with borrowed funds. The federal budget sent to Congress last month by Mr. Obama, projects the National Debt will continue to rise as far as the eye can see. The budget shows the Debt hitting $16.3 trillion in 2012, $17.5 trillion in 2013 and $25.9 trillion in 2022. Federal budget records show the National Debt once topped 121% of GDP at the end of World War II. The Debt that year, 1946, was, by today's standards, a mere $270 billion dollars. Mr. Obama doesn't mention the National Debt much, though he does want to be seen trying to reduce the annual budget deficit, though it's topped a trillion dollars for four years now. As part of his "Win the Future" program, Mr. Obama called for "taking responsibility for our deficits, by cutting wasteful, excessive spending wherever we find it." His latest budget projects a $1.3 trillion deficit this year declining to $901 billion in 2012, and then annual deficits in the range of $500 billion to $700 billion in the 10 years to come. If Mr. Obama wins re-election, and his budget projections prove accurate, the National Debt will top $20 trillion in 2016, the final year of his second term. That would mean the Debt increased by 87 percent, or $9.34 trillion, during his two terms.

This was a troop hike, so there was bound to be a range of ages participating even if individual patrols wwere age-homogenous. The older Scouts leaving the younger behind is selfish. It is also not loyal, courteous, kind, or friendly. It may not be safe, depending on the circumstances. (Does each sub-group, especially the last, have a first aid kit?) The traditional solution is to take the leader - the SPL - aside and discuss what you see happening. This gives the SPL the opportunity to correct the situation by reminding the older Scouts of their responsibilities in a Scouting context. If the SPL does not change the situation, he needs more/better training and counseling about the objectives of leadership. Ask him if he wants to lead the troop. If so, that includes the younger Scouts. Adults taking direct action is usurping the role of the leaders unless some immediate safety issue is involved. The SA who got loud and physical needs to change his behavior. He is setting a terrible example and violating BSA policy. Someone needs to tell him that. There is a need to identify someone whom he respects to deliver the message. Would he like to see the leaders (Scouts) using the same style? Changing well-establish behavior patterns is not easy to achieve. Where was the SM?(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

Sources of numbers to support your loyalty?