TAHAWK

From the official history This matches what I recall when serving as a gofer for the Course QM. I will try to get ahold of a syllabus.

Is this the same as individual testing on the requirements or does it have some other purpose?

+10

Who are "they" and what is "the entire group"?

Possibly. But when I deliver YPT training, I am to read the following to the participants: "Even if no abuse occurs, leaders and other volunteers in Scouting must obey the rules. When they demonstrate an unwillingness to follow the rules, they must be expelled from the activity and reported to the person in charge of the activity and local Scout executive as soon as possible. The Scout executive will determine any follow-up actionâ€â€up to and including revocation of membership in the BSA. Is the strict enforcement of the Youth Protection Policies really necessary? Yes, in order for youth protection to be meaningful, we must eliminate opportunities for abuse to be perpetrated. The BSA’s Youth Protection Policies help limit the opportunities for abuse to occur." and again "Any violations of the BSA’s Youth Protection policies must immediately be reported to the Scout executive." So I would like to know if BSA means what it publishes or, in some respects, means something else, as I hope. I just want BSA to share.

What is the purpose of the quizzes?

B.S.A. policy specifically approves one-on-one verbal contact between an adult and a youth in Scouting so long as it is in view of both adults and youth. "In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmaster’s conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths." So I find I have been violating the rules by talking to Scouts with only dozens of Scouts in the same room - unless there is an exception on the grounds that the conversation is not "required." I also seem to be violating the rules by talking to Scouts in my car when driving them to outings as no second adult is usually, just Scouts. The language quoted by dc clearly prohibits one-on-one contact if it is via the Internet. One-on-one telephone contact is clearly prohibited except when it is allowed. As I posted, I get e-mails from Scouts all the time due to my status as a Merit badge Counselor. Further, I get numerous one-on-one telephone call from Scouts about Merit Badges. Candidates contacting me is specifically approved by BSA: " The Scout then contacts the merit badge counselor and makes an appointment." No mention is made in the more specific rules about the telephone or e-mail contacts not being one-on-one. Thereafter, I meet with Merit Badge candidates but not alone. I now see that the rules expressly require that a "buddy" be present. There is no provision with meeting with a second adult, including a parent. "The merit badge counselor sets a date and time to meet with the Scout and his buddy. . . ." I have been violating the rules by meeting in the Scout's home with his mother and/or father present. I have also been violating the rule by meeting the candidate at the public library as no "buddy" is typically present - just adult library staff and adult and child patrons. I also get one-on-one emails from leaders (Scouts) about troop program matters - one-on-one verbal contacts. Example: "Mr. X can you talk to the PLC about wilderness survival tonight?" These contacts are clearly in violation of the rules. Some capable committee should rationalize these policies, and not a committee composed only of those from the risk management or YPT bubbles.

Scouting happens to a trivial extent outside B.S.A. That does not mean extra-BSA scouting has no value qualitatively. Who are you to apply B.S.A. rules to a "pinnacle scouting" experience? I dunno'. A registered B.S.A. leader? Declining the insurance coverage on principle? For claims arising on a trip, that usually means you are self-insured. Yes, "control" has been an issue for B.S.A. ever since Darth West. My problem with all this focus on how adults just must detract from the Patrol Method is experience.. See, as a Scout I never felt adults were a serious problem because the Scouters would not allow them to be one. As I have posted, it was behave or begone. Behave including camping separately (but within scream) from the Scouts. Certainly, it was worlds different from any of the high school sports. I was trained that if adults were planning or leading, that was not Boy Scouting. There were troops under thraldom to adults in the 1950's. We felt sorry for them. They did not get the "Patrol" streamer for their troop flag at the Council assembly during Scout Week - a great embarrassment. Following that, their Neighborhood Commissioner would visit the Committee and explain why they did not get the "Patrol" streamer. Was that coercion? Darned right it was, and it worked. Only one (huge) troop consistently failed to get the streamer, and everyone know about them. (Never sent leaders (Scouts) to training either - too many "bad" ideas there. Tremendous at drill and formal ceremonies. Consistent losers at Camporee competitions when the adults could not run the patrols.)

We had Jr R.O.T.C. in camp when one week of NYLT was running. They communicated great contempt for the Scouts and Scouters (pointing, laughing), and knee-slapping, would not comply with agreed shower schedule, and left a mess in the shower house and area. Not a happy experience.

Certainly the good should not be defeated by the search for the perfect I suspect I had something different in mind for "handle." And the good should not be defeated by the search for the perfect. (Good Samaritan laws only apply to doctors being good samaritans.) Certainly nothing stops suing entirely. Satan was sued in federal court. We have lots of rules, including the Oath and Law. Citing the point of the law on obedience and comparing it to defenses offered by war criminals seems a bit over the top. I would be surprised if you truly do not know what the policy is about having adults, 2, present. Hardly a war crime. This retired Britsh military guy wrote: "Let the Scoutmaster remember that in addition to his duty to his boys he has a duty also to the Movement as a whole. Our aim in making boys into good citizens is partly for the beneï¬Ât of the country, that it may have a virile trusty race of citizens whose amity and sense of “playing the game†will keep it united internally and at peace with its neighbours abroad. Charged with the duty of teaching self-abnegation and discipline by their own practice of it, Scoutmasters must necessarily be above petty personal feeling, and must be large-minded enough to subject their own personal views to the higher policy of the whole. Theirs is to teach their boys to “play the game,†each in his place like bricks in a wall, by doing the same themselves. Each has his allotted sphere of work, and the better he devotes himself to that, the better his Scouts will respond to his training. Then it is only by looking to the higher aims of the Movement, or to the effects of measures ten years hence that one can see details of today in their proper proportion. Where a man cannot conscientiously take the line required, his one manly course is to put it straight to his Commissioner or to Headquarters, and if we cannot meet his views, then to leave the work. He goes into it in the ï¬Ârst place with his eyes open, and it is scarcely fair if afterwards, because he ï¬Ânds the details do not suit him, he complains that it is the fault of the Executive." This still leaves us lots of room to run the Patrol Method. I do not accept that a Scoutmaster has so little control over adults that he or she must exclude them from the outing entirely in order to have the leaders (Scouts) leading.

Stosh, The fact that adults don't always get it right does not prove that children are more likely to get it right, No guarantees either way. Still, those motor vehicle accident statistics are not a matter of opinion. Adults have at least had the opportunity of seeing how bad things happen. What could have been done is not try to roll the log down the hill. I appreciate your policy on training Scouts in first aid, especially at my age. However, fIrst aid does not = "handling any medical emergency" And if you think risk management is not a real world issue, you are forgetting what I think you actually know about the age we live in. Any organization is suicidal not to worry about being sued. It's all a waste of breath unless someone thinks we are impressing the policy decision-makers. We are on our honor to follow the rules. In my time as a Scout and when I was Scoutmaster, adults who could not restrain themselves were absent thereafter. Problem solved. It cost a few Scouts in the troops, but it had to be. What BSA needs to do is etch the rules in flame and enforce the rules -- even if it costs some "wonderful" advancement mill/FOS champion adults. As for terms of office for leaders (Scouts) , I was surprised when I got "back in" in 1981 to find that many thought t six-month terms were best. Six months always seemed to me to be too little time to really get good at the PL job. It's not what was done in the troop were I was a Scout or in a Troop where I was SM. APL's, used properly, can be getting real leadership responsibility. In the end, the objective is as many Scouts leading as practicable, not maximum experience for the minimum number. We are an educational program for as many boys as possible. We do not look to have only the best students take the tests. Even watch the popular twit get elected knowing there would be an educational crash? I have. And it was educational. When I run into those men today, they still remember the Klondike when the food was left back in town and they were missing half the gear they needed for the events. They finished behind a Webelos den and had a hungry time sponging scraps off the other four patrols (much to the mirth of the other patrol members). They also remember the new election called by the PLC. They directly relate the lesson to their voting as citizens in local, state, and federal elections. And we have "rules," Stosh, do we not? Like "courteous." TT, I was told as a new PL that adults were essential and the greatest threat to my authority that existed. They think the objective is a well-oiled machine, lots of advancement, perfect meals, etc. They are slow to understand that it's the process that is important - the journey. So the leaders (Scouts) need to be taught how to minimize the interference, the parents need to be trained about the limited adults role, and the uniformed adults need to be standing between the leaders and the adults - not being the biggest part of the problem as they are now. Of course it will be a mess at times. They are children, not miniature adults (and consider what some adults produce.). If it's not getting better, we are not doing our job and we need to ask ourselves how to do better. JM, Kudu's sovereign remedy seems perfect for your situation. If the older Scouts are not present, they can't overawe the younger leaders. Eagledad, In 45 years in Scouting, I have not been around 1000's of troops, as you have, Only went to one Jamboree. I see no fully-uniformed Patrol Method troops today. I was a Scout in a fully-uniformed 100% Patrol Method troop. There were, back then, fully-uniformed troops that covered the spectrum from 100% adult led to troops like my Troop 43. Kids can be absolute fascists on rules, as history has shown us. The book said uniform. It never occurred to us to do otherwise, especially as the ASPL at the door would not let you in to a troop meeting otherwise after your second meeting- a rule adopted by the Court of Honor in 1909. Nor would your PL allow you in the weekly patrol meeting out of uniform, and no adults were present. Different times, I guess. Also different times in that Scouting does not have "a uniform." BSA sells several different uniforms (at least 18 combinations of current issue alone). To wear "a uniform" someone would have to determine what it would be,

Adults are needed because they have a non-delegable duty to insure that the situation is safe. It ought to be possible to fulfill that duty from a distance. Adults are needed because, after safety, their primary duty is to train and coach youth leaders to lead. Then there's all the other stuff adults tend to do that is not needed. That is not quite my understanding or what B.S.A. says so far as I can find. The SPL is to chair the PLC and to lead troop activities with the SM as his coach and mentor and not his director. Since B.S.A. has failed to coherently tell Scouters what the Patrol Method is for over a dozen years, it is not surprising that so few Scouters follow it. I am aware of many troops where the leaders (Scouts) get no training unless they go to NYLT, and they return to their troops to be told "We don't do it that way." The message needs to be clear as to what is meant and that it is not optional. You are describing a troop not using the Patrol Method. You and I and others here see it routinely. It needs to end. Sounds right to me. Good PL's mean the SPL has little stress. Weak PL's and its like herding cats. Never the adults unless it's a safety issue. Otherwise, its experience for the PL and patrol members. Might the SPL get within voice to ask the PL to come over for a 1-on-1 chat? Why not if it is not overdone? It's a matter of judgment that one hopes to see growing in the leader (Scout). Hopefully, what the SPL wants to take up with the PL can be dealt with later. Only if "run the troop" means directly lead the patrols. "activity" = Patrol activity? If so, sure. The majority of SM's in this area do not let their troops near the Patrol Method. We have troops that literally have no separate patrol activities - even a few minutes of Patrol Corners. I'm happy to find a misbehaving SM who knows he is doing wrong. Until they are trained properly in what the Patrol Method is, I am not 100% sure if it is an issue of willingness. However, the "Dad Problem," as it was called fifty years ago, is doubtless still at work: "Here, let me help."

I think I read somewhere that "adult association" is primarily adults setting the example of living the Oath and Law. And that would not be adult "control."

"And in the end, aren't we all on the same team?" Since at least 1930 and to this date, the answer is, "No." You are in the same league. Patrols are the teams in which Scouts are to play the game of Scouting. Together, the form a league called a "troop." From current B.S.A. pronouncements: [emphasis added] [emphasis added] It is, after all, the PATROL Method: Dead on about titles, I think. "Who is the leader," we used to ask in the district-level leader training weekend. I forget the official answer. The accurate answer is, "Whoever leads." Titles are of secondary importance at best when the "troops" can vote with their feet, Appoint or elect someone who is not the leader and the Scouts look at the Leader every time the Title gives instruction so they can see what the Leader thinks they should do. And that's the best outcome. Worse, the patrol falls apart.

Adults have a role as resources. If adults exclude youth from being allowed to teach, including stretching a bit, that's not helpful. My first Scoutmaster always had youth member of his Scoutmaster Basic Training staffs because: 1) They could do it; 2) They liked to do it; and 3) They helped sell adults on the concept that youth could handle responsibility. If you honestly believed in the Patrol Method, how could you not see youth as staff?

1911 posts. Congratulations. Why would keeping a copy of all e-mails not serve the same end? Usually I am e-mailing a Scout in response to an e-mail he sends me.

Anything left of BP's interest in vocational training?

http://books.google.com/books?id=cdVEcN2LXwYC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=Augusto+Flores+scout&source=bl&ots=HtN_EU4GFL&sig=fHYFtaAuMV48vTESHjCfj-VjMas&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XPZXU-WABNKxsATYg4HgCQ&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Augusto%20Flores%20scout&f=false Wichita Daily Times - Wichita Falls, Texas - July 12 1926 Newspaper Archive [TABLE=class: recordFieldsTable] [TR=class: recordFieldsRow] [TD=class: recordFieldLabel]Text:[/TD] [TD=class: recordFieldValue]"... AlftES, July 12. W Juna Veletta, an Argentlnan, and AugustoFlores, a Peruvian, are beginning today a pedestrain trip from Buenos Aires lo New York, under sponsorship of the Admiral Brown Club. The hikers..."[/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: recordFieldsRow] [TD=class: recordFieldLabel]Date:[/TD] [TD=class: recordFieldValue]July 12 1926[/TD] [/TR] [TR=class: recordFieldsRow] [TD=class: recordFieldLabel]Publication:[/TD] [TD=class: recordFieldValue]Wichita Falls, Texas, United States of America [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1368&dat=19281107&id=0WJQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FA8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6509,1210972

Wood Badge was designed as a static course, Someone came up with "Walking Wood Badge" in 1976 Thereafter, there were Canoeing Wood Badge and Rafting Wood Badge - as trials. The Walkers went by us twice at Philmont, They looked motivated but tired. I have not heard of a Walking course in many years. I think they were all at Philmont.

Who pointed to a program failure?

In this area, there is no relationship. It is simply "other training" on a variety of topics hopefully useful and interesting to Scouters - and for some sessions Scouts - in various aspects of Scouting.

Patrol Leaders are appointed by the Group Scout Leader and/or Scout Leader?

Sit on top fence rail. Hook toes back under middle fence rail for a jaunty aspect Fall over backwards. Break ankle Try to put on backpack. Drop same. Break toe. Endless.