TAHAWK

Iron Chef WIlderness Survival - every Scout can bring a standardized container of whatever - that's it for the weekend. Lost Boy(s) (We got actually "victims" from high school theater program to volunteer, assisted by our council's genius on first aid makeup.) Some items of "treasure" for surprises if they could solve puzzle to locate them. Conservation - backpacked in 500 fir and spruce seedlings and planted them. Came back in four years and were happy to see how they had grown. Also carried out lots of beverage containers.

I would argue that mixed-age patrols are allowed, if not suggested. As I noted, the examples of "Types of Patrols" given provides no place for Scouts who are beyond first year and not First Class. Must be somewhere for them. The examples, therefore, are only examples. I support mixed-age patrols in my unit and in training if they are, to the greatest extent possible, small groups of friends. In practice within my experience since the NSP idea came in, newly crossed-over Scouts tend to want to stay with the boys with whom they cross-over. After they have been in for awhile, some decide that they want to move. In the troop I was with longest, the patrol then decided if they wanted to take the Scout in. As uncomfortable as that could be (but rarely was), it was better than forcing the team to take a player they didn't want. The PL's were counseled to remember the Law. Youth can sign off on advancement if the SM OK's it. That's an application of judgment with a range of results depending on the youth and the SM. Clear communication would first require clear thinking about what the message should be. Hopefully building a program that attracts kids while meeting the goals would be central to the thinking.

Stosh, you are far from a newbie. I hope you were just missing the "irony" emoticon . If there were a question, a well-run program is not the method or the objective. Boys leading the program is the method and learning democracy and leadership the objective. People in love with a "well-tuned machine" will either get frustrated of take over - mostly the latter recently. Not sure what BSA is focused on preserving. The Patrol Method is, supposedly, the most important characteristic of the program - the "School of democracy" to prepare youth to be good citizens and leaders. Yet we have the article that is the topic, approving dumping the Patrol Method to meet adult needs. Barry, I'm in a hurry to define good Scouting practices because BSA has done a less-than-optimal job of defining them. For fourteen years we had basic training for SM's and SA's that ignored the Patrol Method in the session on "Working with youth, the patrol method." After waiting so long, the new syllabus mentions some aspects of the method in "The Patrol Method" but not all aspects, and the new syllabus does not even have the objective of the participant being able to define or explain the method. BSA still says all the right things scattered here and there, if one can recognize what it is talking about -- the things quoted above. Yet BSA allows statements like those in the Scouting article that is the topic of this thread. I do not apologize for believing that explaining how to develop good Scouting begins with clearly explaining the methods and goals of Scouting, including, of critical importance, the Patrol Method. I also believe in training Scouters in that method and finding ways to encourage its use. If BSA has been wrong about this from 1930 to date, so were the men who built Scouting into a great world movement. And those thinking the Patrol Method somehow produces a rigid sameness need to remember that the directions steered both short and long-term will be as various as the changing cast of boys who plan and lead and the adults who, working behind the scenes, teach, coach, and mentor them. Since you seem to me to believe that "everything is optional" is a fine idea and within BSA policy: 1. Shouldn't BSA stop promising the boys the Patrol Method, stop telling adults that the "[boys] lead their patrols and their troop," and openly say that adults can do whatever they want, including no Patrol Method? 2. Do you believe that the Oath and Law are also optional? It's along way from "demanding perfection" to not even try. One should try to "throw strikes" if you agree to take the ball and toe the rubber. We can disagree on what is most important in the Patrol Method or how the words ought to be understood. People often differ around the edges. But there ought to be essential aspects that we at least try, in our own imperfect ways, to have happen. I take my text from B.S.A. itself. This does not come from me, although I agree with the text I have quoted. I didn't invent Boy Scouting. I have seen it work, to one degree or another, when it is tried. ​I do think a Boy Scout leader ought to lead and support Boy Scouting , as explained by B.S.A., rather than something else. We have some here who want to invent their own program yet operate under the label of Boy Scouting. I have no issue with the first. It's a free country. If you know better than BP. Bill, and BSA combined, go for it. You may be right in the end. Let's just not pretend we are Boy Scout leaders when we reject basic elements of Boy Scouting. In training Scouters, I find no shortage of adults willing to try Boy Scouting if only they are told what it is and are allowed to talk through why it is a good idea to allow the relative disorder of boy leadership. Adults come here and are told by some to ignore what BSA says, - on whatever topic they bring. This causes, at best, confusion. Often, the topic they raise is totally ignored , perhaps because the poster has something to say, relevant and material or not. "Driven off"? I submit that promising adventure and boy leadership and delivering something else drives away boys quite well enough. Boys in typical fashion of persons of that age, have little patience with hypocrisy. Don't we -- Scouters and BSA -- need to say what we mean and do what we say.? If we fail, let's at least fail trying to deliver Boy Scouting to the best of our ability. An outdoor program run by boys who are counseled and supported by adults may prove to be a popular program. It was once. "Agree with you. I like to call being a SM is an art, not a science. There is a multitude of factors involved in scouting: from resources, abilities of leaders, abilities of scouts, CO support, location, ad nauseum. Every troop is different." Eagle 94-a1, Sounds right. Working with people doesn't seem much like science (even if we have "social scientists"). And the same variety existed when almost every troop ran the Patrol Method (and we knew the very few that did not) - back when 2 of 3 boys were registered Scouts at some time. People don't come off an assembly line like bottles. "Unfortunately I've met folks who think that what is expressed in the current BSA literature IS the only way of doing it, even if it will be detrimental to the program in some situations. And if you tell them otherwise, it's blasphemy. There are some folks who don't realize that there are a variety of ways, all legit, to deliver the program." So what is "the program" that you are worried about? Adult-run troop-method troops? What BSA has said since 1930 or what each individual adult thinks the program should be? I submit that refusing to use the Patrol Method means you are not keeping the promise to deliver the Boy Scouting Program. You may be delivering something. Heck, I might like it, Why call it Boy Scouting if it fails to include the youth leadership that the Scouts are promised in the Handbook -- the feature that is said to be THE thing about Boy Scouting? "Take the entire New Scout Patrol, Expereinced Patrol, Venture Patrol set up of today. I've met folks who have told me you cannot have Mixed-Aged Patrols because it is not in BSA literature. " Is too. ^___^. A patrol "is a small group of friends." B.S.A. 2015. That's in the literature since 1930. Didn't say BSA is good at communication 'cause its only fair - at best. Read literally, that language about three kinds of patrols has no patrol for a second year Scout who is not First Class. People in that "bubble" at BSA did their thing while the people who write about Methods do their thing. BSA says for nearly eighty-five years that the Patrol Method is the essence of Boy Scouting then Scouting says it's OK to go months and months with no Patrol Method, try it out, and dump it for another year because it does not produce what adults (who did without boys leading before) decide its not a well-oiled machine. Others at BSA have said from 1930 to date that a well-oiled machine is not the objective - the processes counts more than the results. Apparently no one has the job of making sure there is a consistent message.

"Everything is optional" is the "cover" for adult-run, troop-method Scouting. Good words by B.S.A. are in current literature. What is lacking is any behavior to pressure -- or even strongly encourage -- adults to follow the.words. Adults who refuse to allow, and advocate against, any aspect of the Patrol Method are not just tolerated; they are rewarded. This is not the acknowledged policy and some at National are against this behavior, but it is what it is. If you have a one-patrol troop, there is no need for an SPL as you have no occasion for a PLC and no need for any program other than the patrol's. No reason Boy Scouting cannot go on. The patrol can plan its program and carry it out. Any desire for inter-patrol activity can be met by working with another "troop." B.S.A. 2015

Somehow when I wasn't looking, "Nice try!" became "Good Job!" I have had two participants (learners) in SM training argue that everyone should be allowed to join OA I have had one participant argue that everyone should get Eagle. I have had several participants argue that the position of Patrol Leader should rotate, at least every month but, better, every week. In each case, the argument was made that being "fair" required the result urged. This was a natural segway for the old observation that "Life is not fair." Since we are supposedly preparing youth for life . . . . . I suppose what they want would be "fair," for different values of fairness.

Two things. 1. My former troop voted to do Summer Camp on its own every other year for two main reasons. One of them was that they felt the MBC's at Council Camps were, by and large,a poor second to the adults who were MBC's at our troop summer camp. (E.g. Army Ranger SERE instructor [That is, someone who regularly instructs 20-somethings in survival] vs. teenager for Wilderness Survival. [besides, few would guess his correct age given the shape he's in.] Simply no contest.) 2. Your argument is based on a false dichotomy: a) young, knowledgeable, competent , enthusiastic teenagers VS old, tired, lazy, boring, out-of-touch 45+ types. Using a false dichotomy is an old, lazy, boring, out-of-touch tactic not worthy of you. I have seen appreciated and acknowledged in this thread the value of those rare sorts who fit the first half of your dichotomy. The alternatives that I and many other have seen are ignored in the second half, and because they exist your dichotomy is "false." I truly regret the experiences you must have had with teachers. A boring, lazy, out-of-touch teacher has no business in the game. I suspect that few of those types, being lazy, would volunteer to attend Summer Camp to teach.

Eagledad, I am not sure who, among recent posters, thinks the SPL position is wrong somehow. Since 1930, one of the essential elements of the BSA Patrol Method as explained, clearly by Bill and not so well since, is a Senior Patrol Leader, elected by the Scouts, who acts as chairman of the PLC and leads the troop portion of the program. As I have had occasion to point out, Bill Hillcourt, as much as anyone author of the BSA Patrol Method, specifically and expressly wrote about the patrol as part of the troop program and the duty of loyalty to the troop. (Teams find it convenient to have a league in which to play.) This policy does not mean that patrols are not the basis of Scouting, the primary context for the Scout's experience, or that patrols are not to have independent existence, including independent program. (Please see quotations of current BSA language in post 7.) The failure to understand the Patrol Method, including by some at BSA, complicates discussions, much less application. But lack of understanding has never prevented we mere mortals from expression of strong opinions that are in error. Sincerely believed error is often more damaging that deliberate falsehood. The Scoutmaster whom I work with at present told me recently that "everything is optional" and that "advancement is Scouting." This point-of-view helps explain a situation, at one point in the recent past, of no PLC meetings for twelve years and even "PLs" who did not know to what patrol they supposedly belonged. ("Breakout? The patrols would be in separate rooms? Why that would mean the Patrol Leaders would have to be in change.") BSA contributes to such confusion by having training on the Patrol Method that does not even have as an objective explaining what constitutes the Patrol Method and by not, somewhere, coherently defining the Patrol Method. As for who belongs in a given patrol, the current definitive statement by BSA is that a patrol "is a small group of friends." That says to me that the Scouts, to the greatest extent possible (vs. convenient) decide who is in a patrol. Adults tend to be neat freaks who are put off by one patrol of six and another of eight. In my current roop, patrols until recently existed only on paper as an administrative convenience, When a patrol got weak, we had upset the basket day, and everyone was reshuffled to make it all tidy. Bill, of course, expressly warned against such behavior by adults.

Fiend, language is significant: "Jesus." Let me guess; we are both Christians, yes? As confusing and downright unhelpful as BSA's statements on the subject are, no God is required since Buddhists are acceptable. Buddhism is a religion. It's adherents are, therefore, religious -- religious atheists officially held by B.S.A. to satisfy all requirements of Scouting. That leaves a lot of room when applying, as you appropriately mention, the notions of helpfulness, friendliness, and kindness, not to mention fairness. I can say, and mean, may God guide you in your deliberations. .

Scouting is "A game for boys under the leadership of boys with the wise guidance and counsel of a grown-up ...."

Kathy, questions are a great tool to open minds to new possibilities. We are there to be resources for new possibilities that they can pick from. Well, some minds. 0___0 So a question: If the Patrol Method were important, what might B.S.A. do to encourage use of the Patrol Method ?

Sorry that I was not clear. I was trying to say that, as the patrol is the important unit in Scouting, patrol activities should have priority,especially if previously scheduled., On its website, contradicting other current statements, BSA says troop activities always take precedence. This is probably not a policy decision but merely another example of the practice of inconsistency and/or poor communication.

I have managed to convince a three SMs who wanted to change from adult-led to Patrol Method to "start over." The Scouts formed themselves into new patrols. The patrols elected their PLs after a brief speech about the PL's job. The PLs attended a training weekend (Outside resources used included two SPLs from other troops who had staffed NYLT.). A training day was held for Committee members and other interested parents A training session of one hour was held for all Scouts about the Patrol Method. (The PL represents you at the PLC; you plan your patrol program with the PL as chairman of the planning meeting; everyone has a job, etc.) The patrols met separately every week for three months after the training. The PLs led their respective patrol's meetings. They had a list of adult and youth volunteers who could be asked to present at the patrol meeting. PLs copied SPL (usually electronically) on required written meeting plans (format supplied) and reported to SPL at monthly PLC on how meetings went.[All but one troop used Start/Stop/Continue as part of process.] The patrols had two patrol hikes and one patrol weekend campout. [Adults were supplied by Troop, remotely present at the outings, and carefully trained to watch, not intervene, except when safety was an issue.] Only then was there the first troop meeting of the new era. Most of the troop meeting time was spent with the patrols in separate areas, studying Scoutcraft, preparing for inter-patrol competition, passing advancement requirements, or preparing for patrol activities. Troop activities were planned around previously-planned patrol activities.[Current BSA publications have this backwards.] Some comments on the new era [no claim of cause and effect made, but interesting]: 1) the Scouts self-identified as "Meatballs," "Flaming Ice Cubes," or "ATM ["at the moment" 'cause they couldn't decide on a "permanent" name] rather than "members of troop 161"; 2) patrol flag contest and three months to get 'er done produced much more impressive patrol flags. (PLC decided patrol flag should always be carried by respective PL unless he needed both hands for something.) [They were steered in that direction by questions.]["Meatball" "flag" was a soccer ball painted brown on a pole bearing the word "YUM" with a large screw-in eyelet "for all the ribbons we're going to win." They were first at Klondike two years running. If you do it, it ain't braggin' .] 3) given the opportunity to lead, most PLs were judged to be more active and effective as leaders than had been the case in the formerly adult-led troops; 4) PLs in the PLC were clearly doing better job of bringing the desires of their patrols to the planning process rather than their personal preferences; 5) attendance at all activities increased dramatically [one troop had 100% attendance at their Klondike and summer camp]; 6) performance at district competitive events improved greatly; 7) the patrols continued to have separate hikes and campouts because they wanted to. 8) membership increased a minimum of 15% over the first year. 9) It took more resources at the beginning but that enhanced load tapered off; 10) It was worth the extra work. NOTE: all but one of these troops met in churches with a number of rooms for breakouts.

At the most basic level, a youth with tremendous excitement about a topic could very well be an excellent teacher. What he or she cannot be is a Merit Badge Counselor any more than he or she can be a Scoutmaster. If BSA has insufficient interest in enforcing the rules, it should change them or eliminate them. Announcing clear rules and them knowingly allowing them to be systematically ignored by paid Scouters produces disrespect for rules and cynicism about rules - contrary to the mission of Scouting

On appeal, the result you state would be reversed as contrary to BSA policy. See Buddhists, above. With very few exceptions, those calling themselves Buddhist do not believe in a creator deity - or any deity whatsoever. We are apparently to apply all parts of BSA's (often wildly) inconsistent statements to the extent that they pass the Scout. Scouters do not get to define either "God" or "religion" or "relevant" to suite their personal beliefs even as BSA gives inconsistent definitions so as to avoid conflict.

It is not clear what BSA expects. When logical consistency produces uncomfortable answers, it is often avoided. BSA, like Scouting, accepts Buddhists as Scouts who do their "Duty to God" and are "Relevant" although they have no belief in a deity. Therefore, BSA literally does not require belief in God or a god. BSA is not in a position to admit these realities. BSA has enough troubles as it is, so the issue is tiptoed around. EBOR instructions expressly prohibit asking the candidate if he believes in God. It sounds like that rules was not violated; that the candidate was asked a question about the Law in general and volunteered that he has no belief in a higher power. I suspect he could he counseled to discover, quite honestly, that there are mysteries that he does not have an answer for that suggest that some things are beyond human power and understanding. That is basically what I hear from my Buddhist friends, and they are certified GTG on the 12th Point of the Law since 1926. And I am totally in agreement that this should not have exploded like Pearl Harbor at the EBOR.

My point, right or wrong, is that the article supports - by rationalization - adult leadership instead of the required boy leadership unless the boys produce a "well tuned" troop and there is the proper "maturity and cultural personality" (whatever the last is). I see no such requirements in official BSA literature over the last 84 years. Nothing new to celebrate. Widespread ignoring of the official words noted, BSA needs to make a clear statement of what it means to use the Patrol Method. Then BSA needs to move past words - quoted verbatim above - unless those 84 years of words are meaningless. BSA also needs to disavow rationalizations of ignoring the Patrol Method 'cause some adults get their pants in a wad over kids not running a well-oiled machine. Having trouble selling the "Product"? How about the genuine article?

The troop in which I was a Scout was mostly military dependents. By the World's standards, I guess we were well-off. By U.S. standards we were very working class or poor. At that time, a Scout was expected to earn most of the cost of Scouting by his own efforts. I cut grass, baby sat, and had a newspaper route. One Scout had a regular business washing cars by hand. Another made sure your house looked occupied (including taking care of your yard) when you went on vacation. Another shopped for the elderly. California, so no leaves to rake or snow to shovel. Many had part-time jobs at stores of various kinds. There are many barriers to overcome in bringing Scouting to youth. Money is just one of them and, in my experience, not the biggest barrier. Youth who are eager to Scout and who have supportive families usually find a way. If the kids think Scouting is boring or dorky, money will not get the job done. To your point about selling popcorn, you might ask at Roundtable about the best fund-raising activities that a troop can use. We sell popcorn to support the Council and sell other things because the profit to the Scouts is much better. While it is true that B,.S.A. offers expensive options, you don't have to buy. We have done our own high adventure trips at a fraction of the cost of B.S.A. programs - and our own Summer Camp every other year (better food, PLC-selected programming, and actual Merit Badge Counselors). = cost under 50% of Council camps.

According to B.S.A., this article aside, the aspects of the troop that are to be boy-led are planning the program and leading the program for the patrols and the collection of patrols.. “It is necessary to point out at the start that the Patrol System is not one method in which Scouting for boys can be carried out, but that it is the only method.†(Frequently misquoted by B.S.A. and incorrectly attributed to Baden-Powell) "A patrol is that small group of boys and friends under their own leadership who plan and carry out troop and patrol meetings and activities.†[emphasis added] “The boys themselves develop . . . program, then take responsibility for figuring out how they will achieve their goals.†“While the Patrol Method is primarily about patrols, it is also about how those patrols, working through the Patrol Leaders’ Council, operate the troop created from those patrols – the ‘Youth-led Troop.’†“Empowering boys to be leaders is the core of Scouting. Scouts learn by doing, and what they do is lead their patrols and their troop.†“Patrols elect their own leaders, and through these patrol leaders, Scouts have a voice [in the PLC] in deciding what activities the troop will put on its calendar.†“The patrol leaders’ council is responsible for . . . conducting the troop’s activities. … They plan the program, conduct troop meetings, and provide leadership among their peers.†“The Scoutmaster and other adults with the Troop act as non-voting advisors and resources for the Scout leaders in their program planning.†"The formalized proposed annual troop program is presented to the Troop Committee by the Senior Patrol Leader, accompanied by the Scoutmaster, who asks them to support the program. The Committee considers that question in light of the policy of the Boy Scouts of America that the responsibility for planning program rests with the Scouts.†“Our goal is not to get things done, but to create a safe and healthy environment with the training and resources that the Scouts need, and then let them do it.†“Except as to matters of safety, neither adults not Junior Assistant Scoutmasters directly supervise Scout work. Instead, they work THROUGH the leaders by teaching, advising, counseling, educating, and example.†"We just have to remember that our business as adults is not the same as the business of the boys. It is up to them to get things done. It is up to us to make sure they have what they need, but (within the bounds of health and safety) not what they do with it.†“It can be a very messy business, and painful to watch. Meetings where the boy leaders are in charge can be very chaotic. And it can be very tempting for adults to jump in and sort things out, because that is what adults do. But we have to remember that that is the process of Scouting. That is how they learnâ€â€even from disorganization and failure.†Not a word in those statements by B.S.A. about the "well-tuned machine" requirement or the correct "cultural personality." "Maturity," one assumes, is understood to be the maturity of children. Maturity "to a boy's standard," as Bill would say. The article clearly approves of delaying boy-leadership for a solid year because the boys, finally given a chance, did not produce a "well tuned machine." The "continuum" is the range of success of boys leading. It is our job, through training, coaching, and mentoring, to help them get to the "A" end, not to replace them as the leaders of the troop. That is what B.,S.A. has said, with varying degrees of clarity and skill, since 1930. What is it about "non-voting" that is unclear? Safety is the only exception.

One Mark Ray and Scouting have graced us with an article on "The Scout-Led Troop." Mr. Ray makes some good observations about the value of leadership training, but that is after he stumbles at the very threshold: When a troop tries boy leadership in Fall, 2012, This justified, in Mr. Ray's view, delaying youth leadership of the troop until Fall, 2013.. This illustrates Mr. Ray's understanding as follows: The article even has an illustration of two Scouters taking over from the Scouts for the critical task of erecting a tent.(with a ratio of 4 adults to 6 Scouts).. So if the first experiment with boy leadership does not produce a well-oiled machine, we are OK with a reset to adult leadership for a year. And what in the name of Bill Hillcourt is "cultural personality"? It's a term unknown to other Scout literature seems to be in the the realm of parlor psychiatry. Patrols are not discussed. Seems more like the troop is either Scout-led or it is not yet a Boy Scout troop. I thought better of Scouting.

I respectfully suggest item 7 : 7. Provide time to allow testing on requirements. Again, the 3 merit badges I helped with for a week at camp allowed about 5-7 minutes per candidate for the week, total. It was impossible for a candidate to actually pass a merit badge. When I suggested after dinner -- or other -- time slots at the Scouts convenience, I was told that possibility was against "camp policy." Everything had to be done in "scheduled time." 0___0 I would be willing to pay for meals. My former council's camp had a number of actual Merit Badge Counselors at camp in 2014. (New Camp Director)

Scouts are already prohibited from being Merit Badge Counselors, at camp or otherwise. One must be 18 years of age to be a Merit Badge Counselor. The Councils simply break the rules (and "Trustworthy") and are allowed to do so by B.S.A. Classes are not so much the problem as the practice of failing to individually test, which the Councils allow in violation of the rules. Again, B,S.A. is aware of this preactive and allows it to go on. Prerequisite MB's sounds like a good idea - Camping before Wilderness Survival, for example. Sorry, Stosh, I don;t get this at all. If it's required for the highest rank, it's therefore "necessary" for the three lowest ranks? How so? If you are contending for more rigorous requirements for getting to First Class, that's a decent topic for discussion on it's own.

The link is to the second (1911) version of the requirements for First Class. There were only ten requirements in the original, 1910, version, not twelve, and they differed in substance.. Original Requirement 4, for example, was: The 1911 version was:

From Aunt Yangdu and her workers in Nepal:

Great post, SSScout. That would make Summer Camp about Scout camping.