SWScouter

The troop committee challenge, the leader specific training for troop committee members, is best given to the committee at one time, not to a member here and another there. You may suggest that your committee work with the district training committee to set up a special challenge just for your troop committee. SWScouter

Cool, so far eleven responses and not a one is a response to the original post. What a statement that is!

molscouter, It would be nice if what you say is true, especially since I have been a part of Cub Roundtable Staff and could apply that to the Scouter's training award. I don't know if I can though, at least for the CS knots. Each of the five CS awards, state: Dates of service used to earn this award cannot be used to earn another key or award. To me, that seems fairly explicit. There does seem room though, for example to work on multiple Scouter's training awards at a time though. I really have no idea what the real policy is on this though. Anybody? SWScouter

madkins007, interesting discussion about the disparity in district approval between CS knots and BS knots. I never would have guessed. That does seem to be an implementation problem in your district (perhaps in others too). Yes, for the third knot a SM can earn I was meaning the SM Award of Merit. This is a bit different isn't it. The SM needs to be nominated by the PLC/committee, yet he/she still needs to earn it (maybe qualify is a better term here). I haven't concerned myself with the BS knots yet so I really can't comment too much on if they're more work or not. Looking at the requirements, I'll treat them the same as how I treat the CS knots. That is, I should make sure that I do what is needed to earn them to help ensure I offer the boys the program they deserve. Great discussion. Thanks, SWSCouter

Sure, there's nothing that says that a 5th grade boy can't joing Cub Scouts just because he is eleven. Yes, he's eligible to join Boy Scouts but if he wants to join Cub Scouts because that's where his friends are, that's fine. SWSCouter

madkins007, I would compare the Scouter's Training Award to the Cub Scouter Award, not the Cubmaster Award. I think they are more equivalent and cover any position in their respective unit. I think you need to compare the Cubmaster Award to the Scouter's Key, these awards can only be earned by Cubmasters and Scoutmasters (for troops) respectively. BS leaders can earn up to 2 knots for positions served in a unit- both requiring some district or council participation. Actually, BS Scouters can only earn one knot, except for SMs that can earn three. Not sure what "district or council participation" is needed beyond training and attending roundtable. CS Scouters need that too. Your list doesn't show any (I don't consider this necessary with "staff a training event"). CS 'scorecards' are submitted and filled pretty much on the honor system. BS awards are submitted on forms that are analysed by the office before being filled. I don't understand this. All the awards for CS Scouters require CM or CC approval and district approval. Likewise, all the awards for BS Scouters require SM or CC approval and district approval. What's the difference? I certainly don't intend a knock down drag out fight! All I really meant was that the basic knots are fairly equivalent. Committee members from both types of units have it about the same, one knot after two years. SMs have it a bit better than CMs, three knots after three years compared to two after four. The real difference is the three knots for the various den leader positions for packs, of which, there is nothing comparable in any other type of unit. SWScouter(This message has been edited by SWScouter)

Wait until you see the "time in grade" needed for scouter ribbons. Three years per knot is pretty much the norm. Okay, let's compare "Cub" Scouter knots to "Boy" scouter knots. Cub Scouter Award takes two years tenure as does the Scouter's Training Award. I consider these two fairly equivalent. Scouter's Key takes three years, however, tenure can be combined with Scouter's Training Award. So three years for a SM to get both. It's equivalent for "Cub" scouters is the Cubmaster Award, which has two years tenure that cannot be combined with the Cub Scouter Award. So, it takes a Cubmaster four years to get two knots, while it takes a SM three years. Oh, a SM can also earn the Scoutmaster Award of Merit after 18 months. So a SM can earn three knots in three years while a CM can earn two knots in four years. A committee member of a pack or troop can only earn one knot in two years. Likewise a AS and AC. The only real difference is that a Tiger Den leader, a Den leader, and a Webelos Den leader can earn a knot for that specific position. Tenure is one year for each. There are no equivalent positions in a troop. So what does all this mean? I guess if you are into getting as many knots as soon as possible, be a TL, DL, and WL in three years, then be a SM for three years, then serve on a pack committee for two years, then be a CM for two more years and after 10 years you may have eight knots. SWScouter

John-in-KC, There is at least one more. Req. 8 for the Webelos badge has wording very similar to what you quote for Bear. SWScouter

Greying Beaver wrote, "First - Knots. What puts me into a low simmer for a short time is cub scout leaders with their two rows of tiger and cub scout leader knots. I wear my ribbons and WB beads with pride, but when the parent of a boy just entering the troop after bridging shows up with all those ribbons, yes, I see a dedicated scouter - in need of a lot more training. Guess who doesn't want to go to any boy scout-level training? Bingo. And guess who wants to know what those beads around my neck are for? Bingo." Wow, I guess Greying Beaver put me in a slow simmer, that must be why I decided to wait and cool off before replying. First, there are five Cub Scout leader knots. It takes a minimum of seven years for a person to earn all five. I was a den leader for two years and am on my second year as a Webelos den leader. I just got through sewing my Webelos leader award knot on my uniform tonight. It's my second knot and the last I'll be eligible to earn before my son bridges over to Boy scouts. If I stick it out with the pack through May I will also have earned the Cub scouter award, but that will be three months later. It will also delay any tenure for the boy scout leader training award. I really hope that just because a scouter has a row or two of knots he or she is not stereotyped as a person who doesn't want to learn about one program because he or she already knows about another one. That seems awfully lame to me, especially since it goes completely against my way of thinking. I have attended Intro to Outdoor Leader skills and plan on completing SM training soon. I have read the Scoutmaster's handbook and I know what those wooden beads are, heck I have a set myself. So, instead of going into a slow simmer when you get a new volunteer that is experienced in Cub Scouts, but not Boy Scouts, be thankful, smile and welcome them. Yes the programs are different and there may be some transition and adjustment that needs to be made but it certainly will be a lot easier to accomplish if you embrace them instead of begrudging them. SWScouter (edited for spelling)(This message has been edited by SWScouter)

Hi, I was presented my wood badge beads tonight at the district roundtable. It feels great to finally be able to wear these symbols of scouting I have been working on earning. It doesn't seem like it's been over a year since I attended the course. Time sure seems to fly by. When I reflect on the course and what I've gained from it, I'm still awed by the dedication, preparation, and enthusiasm of the staff of W4-10-04. They are awesome! I used to be an Eagle, SWScouter

wahoonfp wrote, My biggest challenge of running AAD is going to be actually GETTING the medals at the end. Took months to get our twins Light of Christ last year, and there were communications breakdowns all over the place. Is this a problem for anyone else around? I haven't had that problem at all. In fact, I've had great response. This past year, I first faxed in the forms for Parvuli Dei and Light of Christ so they could get the paperwork started, then when they received the forms and payment, they immediately mailed me the medals. The whole process took about a week. I did the same thing the year before. I prefer to delay ordering the medals as long as possible because there always seems to be a few boys who complete their work at the eleventh hour. The diocese seems to understand this too. I always call in time and find out when we should start the process depending on when the presentation will be performed (by the pastor during a Sunday mass) SWScouter

Well, this thread started out fairly interesting but it has degraded to being a bunch of drivel. Perhaps we all can get back on topic or perhaps a moderator can lock this thread.

First, just a couple points of clarification. Dan, in depth does not necessarily mean deep. For example, replacing over your head in depth with over 8' in depth, may make the statement more understandable to you. Msnowman wrote, But in my head I always figured that the water was meant to be deep enough for you to be able to into feet first safely...without hitting bottom quickly and getting hurt.....9 feet was always my mental number. How does one jump safely (even feet first) into water that is just barely over their heads?. It is actually quite safe to jump into water that is not as deep as a person is tall, especially in a pool where the bottom is flat. Jumping into water that is half as deep as a person is tall is not much different than jumping off a small stepping stool. If I took the test in under 12' of water, I'd probably go to the bottom and push off to surface instead of swimming to the surface. But I'm lazy and that's the simplest and quickest way to get back up and start swimming, at least for me. SWScouter

That is not what a boy led troop is. Planning campouts that are all "car camping" with no planned activities is not what scouting is about and it certainly doesn't take much leadership. If you can, take a look at the Scoutmaster's Handbook. Pay particular attention to the sections on boy lead troops, project planning, and training boys. Those chapters should make it painfully obvious that that is not what is meant by a boy lead troop. SWScouter(This message has been edited by SWScouter)

Is it standard procedure to take an 11-yo mountain climbing to 9,000 ft or more? I'm not sure why you assume they were mountain climbing. From the article, they were in the Ruby Mountains of Nevada doing a 50 miler. I know that here in AZ, I can (and do) go camp in the White Mts. at 9000 ft and look out at a herd of elk browsing on the rolling hills, no shear cliffs in sight. I see no reason why the Ruby Mts. would be any different. I don't mean to sound rude, but here in the Rocky Mt. states, the land is just higher to start with. SWScouter

Tucker, At this time, I would have your boy where a one year service star with a yellow background for Cub Scouts and a one year service star with a green background for Boy Scouts. SWScouter

As a WL for a den crossing over next February, this topic is of interest to me. The pack I volunteer for is chartered by a Catholic church. The church also charters a troop. There are five boys in the den, four are Catholic and the fifth is of a christion faith. My plan at this time is for the den to visit the troop chartered to the same church and another troop also chartered by a Catholic church. I also will visit any other troop a parent suggests we visit. My thoughts on what the boys will end up doing is: They will all cross over to the same troop. One may not continue but if he does, I think he will stick with the same troop as the other boys. My guess is it will be the troop chartered to the same church as the pack. We spent last Sat. through Tues. at a "Webelos Encampment." at a council camp. I can tell that the boys aren't even considering joining different troops. In fact, to my surprise, at the encampment, they decided on their patrol name and yell. They spent quite a lot of time figuring it out and agreeing on it. They still have their den name and yell for close to seven more months yet they are already planning for Boy Scouts. I mentioned that they may have other boys in their patrol but they didn't seem concerned about that happening, they are a den and they will be a patrol. As their WL, I can only offer them the opportunity to visit different troops, but I think it is them, the den, that will decide what to do. SWSCouter

I'm not a powderhorn graduate, but sometimes, I'm out there.

I'm not a powderhorn graduate, but sometimes, I'm out there.

Here's another article from the Arizona Republic: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0726latinoscouts26.html Boy Scouts' focus is on Latino recruiting Betty Reid The Arizona Republic Jul. 26, 2005 12:00 AM When it comes to recruiting Arizona's fastest growing population group, Arizona's Boy Scouts simply haven't been prepared. But like good troop leaders, Boy Scouts of America officials assessed their situation and are trying to adapt with a marketing campaign aimed at beefing up Hispanic membership to better reflect the state. "If you look at the demographics, if you look at how the Hispanic population is growing, as an organization we have a responsibility to offer our program to all families," said George Randall, national director of the BSA's Scoutreach. "It is the right thing to do. If you've got a growing population whose values dovetail with the values of Scouting, it's a match." In Arizona, only one in 10 Boy Scouts is Latino, and leaders here, like many other Valley businesses and organizations, are pushing hard to find ways to tap into Arizona's quickly rising Latino market. However, they face some real challenges including apathy, misconceptions and, at least among immigrant Latinos, that the Boy Scouts are only for the affluent. Arizona BSA leaders are especially looking to heavily Hispanic urban areas in Phoenix, Mesa and Glendale, in hopes of adding to the ranks. Nationally, the Boys Scouts have 3.1 million members; of that 7.3 percent are Hispanic, according to numbers provided by the National Council of Boy Scouts of America's Scoutreach offices in Irving, Texas. In Arizona, there are 52,000 Scouts, and less than 10 percent are Hispanics, according to BSA's Grand Canyon Council. Those numbers exclude units, or troops, organized by many church groups. Larry Abbott, chief executive officer of the Grand Canyon Council, said in 2002 that not enough catered to Valley Hispanics. The council added 50 units since January and is heavily recruiting in apartment facilities in low-income areas of Mesa and south Phoenix, he said. But it continues to struggle in heavily Hispanic areas such as the Pueblo District, which covers south, central and west Phoenix. There are fewer than 100 Latino Scouts in the Pueblo District. Alex Estrella is familiar with the challenges of troop membership. The 16-year-old from south Phoenix joined the Boy Scouts when he was in first grade and saw his troop's numbers dip from 16 to four. He said Scouting just isn't that popular among students. "We get called 'sissies.' It's sad because they don't know what they are missing," Estrella said. "I try to explain shooting 12 gauges and rifles. If they find that sissy, then honestly, they don't know the definition of sissy." The number of Hispanics in Scouts has dipped, especially in Maricopa County since 1993 when 900 Hispanic youngsters were recruited and about eight units started, said Frank Ramirez, now associate director of Scoutreach Division of the National Council of the BSA. A self-described "pioneer" of the Valley's Scout recruitment nearly a decade ago attributes the roller-coaster ride of Hispanic numbers in the Arizona Scouts to family involvement and affordability. "Among Latino families, we don't have a long history of our grandfather or uncles having been Scouts," Ramirez said. "There really isn't that hand-down tradition of a grandfather passing down a uniform to a grandson." Though units continue to exist in Latino neighborhoods, there was not a concerted effort given to the leadership until now, Ramirez said. Scoutreach started in 1998 with a threefold mission to recruit adult leaders, to ensure that minority youths had an opportunity to join and to create a community-based partnership with the national office. Its marketing logo is "Scouting, vale la pena," or "Scouting, it's worth the effort." Scouting can incur costs with the purchase of uniforms and necessary equipment for functions like camping, hiking and other activities. Ramirez said expenses can scare off poor families and immigrants. Librada Martinez, Pueblo District community liaison, believes the Boy Scouts should be a perfect match for many traditional Latino families because the Scouts promote values they hold dear such as education, faith, family and strong relationships. But Martinez concedes that there are challenges to overcome. "(In) our Latino countries, these kinds of programs are for privileged kids," Martinez said. Then there is the language issue. Many Latinos in the Valley are Spanish dominant and some parents believe they won't be able to communicate their needs, so they don't pursue the effort. Martinez said the Pueblo District has printed brochures in Spanish and bought time on Spanish radio and TV stations. Some Hispanic families don't need a heavy nudge to join. Jonathan Fierro, for example, enjoys the Scouts. The 12-year-old joined as a first-grader and spent time with Pack 907 Cub Scout Unit this month at Garfield School, where he learned about maps. "My parents like it because I behave better," he said. "I used to get in fights every day. Student bullies used to push me around, and I would fight. After the Scouts, I just let them talk and I turn my back."

Cubmaster-Fred, I asked a similar question here about boosting attendence at a Cub Roundtable breakout session. You may find some of the responses helpful. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=86092 Good luck, SWScouter

I see no reason why a motivated boy can't achieve the Star rank at the age of eleven, especially if he joined before he turned eleven because he earned Arrow of Light as a Cub Scout. SFMike's son may be the exception on earning Eagle but I see no reason to assume he is lying. A scout is trustworthy isn't he? SWScouter

I found this interesting to read since I am acquanted with one of the people in the article and am familiar with the area. The article did bring up one of the big issues with recruiting hispanics into scouting and that is the impression that scouting is for wealthy families. This may sound strange but it really is part of the hispanic culture. One of my Woodbadge patrol members is married to a hispanic woman and he was telling us about this issue during the course. It really is perplexing and I'm not sure what the best approach is to overcome such a strong cultural perspective. SWScouter

Hi Duck7, I'm a Webelos Den Leader. One of the requirments for the Arrow of Light, is for a Webelos Scout to earn the Readyman activity badge. What does that have to do with you, you may ask? Well, I'm tossing around the idea of having the troop organize and plan a workshop where the Webelos scouts in the Pack can earn the Readyman activity badge. You could do something similar for a local pack. It would take a lot of organising and you would need several other scouts to help, but I think it would be a great project that should definitely qualify for your rank requirement. Good luck and let us know what you come up with. SWScouter

Well, I'm going to throw my four cents in since it was my post that spurred ASM59 to spin this thread. Right now, I'm a Webelos Den Leader for my son's den. We recently started the second year of Webelos. I have been the den leader starting the Wolf year. I have no experience working as a leader for Boy Scouts. I try really hard not to be harder or easier on my son compared to how I treat the rest of the boys in the den. Somtimes it's tough though. I've talked to my son several times about it. He understands that I need to treat all the boys equally and, I think, is fine with it and sees that more often than not, I do. He really seems to be glad that I'm the den leader, and I think, proud of that too. His biggest problem with it is that he doesn't ever get to miss an activity because I'm always going to. In that respect, I'm very much harder on my son. I really don't get on the other boys about attendance at all. In general, though, there really isn't any attendance problems with any of the boys. I really do worry about this though. Especially with how things will go when my son crosses over into scouts. Right now, it appears that I will be an SA in the troop. At least that's the impression that I'm getting from the troop leadership. I would be thrilled and honored to be the SM some day if I am asked to fill that position. It worries me though. Not that I'm worried I won't be a good SA or SM, I like to think I can be, but worried that it would not give my son the opportunity to grow as a scout and a young man with me always being there at troop activities like I am now with den activities. I think this trepidation is the same as why Msnowman chose not to be a leader in her Nephew's troop. I don't know how much this addresses ASM59's concerns, but it touches on my biggest concerns of being an SA or SM with a son in the troop. That of the boy being in scouts for himself, not because of my influence on him being in scouts because I am a leader. I do think these two concerns are intimately related though. SWScouter