SWScouter

After looking at the topo map of the Haunted Canyon trail it appears the low spot would have been at 3200' or so on one end and 3600' on the other with plenty of it over 4000'. The trail looks to be somewhat like a horseshoe, close to 9 miles in length, the two trailheads perhaps 5 miles of road between. They would probably have started from the 3200' end. I don't know where the troop was but with warnings of the snow level dropping to 3500' I'd certainly consider snow or sleet a distinct possibility. SWScouter

Lots of snow was forecast at the higher elevations. I heard they were expecting the snow level to drop as low as 3500'. Where we were going was around 3100' so it would have been cold and wet, possibly with sleet. The superstitions start at around 2000' and go up over 5000' in places. I have no idea what the elevation was where the troop was rescued from. My guess is they did not expect snow. I can try to look up the elevation of Haunted Canyon later. SWScouter

I found out about this last night on the news. I'm very glad everything turned out okay for the troop. I find this interesting because my son and I were scheduled to go on our first outing with the troop he crossed over to this weekend. We were going to camp in an area NE of Phoenix, while the other troop camped in an area SE of Phoenix. Friday night, we decided to cancel the trip and instead meet at a leaders house and work on advancement and then go bowling. We knew the snow level was dropping but we were concerned about rain, not snow, and the roads being washed out, especially since a lot of the area where we were heading was burned out last year. We made the right choice, the rain started around 2AM Saturday and continued well into Saturday evening. I measured 2 1/8" at my house and areas in SE Valley measured over 3". After 143 days without measurable rain, we had quite a wet day! In addition to that, the snow level dropped to around 2000-2500'. We would have been snowed in for sure. Yesterday there was a thick blanket of snow to be seen on all the surrounding mountains. This was a very extraordinary storm for this area. I imagine the only good way for those scouts to have gotten out on their own would to have had a GPS and to follow the "tracks" made on the way in. With all the snow on the ground and falling, a map and compass would have been worthless. With at least a foot of snow on the ground when they woke up Saturday morning, travel would be tough without snow shoes. Once they got to their vehicles, I'm not sure they would even have been able to get out. SWScouter

Mark, I thought I'd wait til you were beaded before I gave my congratulations and now I'm late by a week. Well, congratulations and I hope your beading ceremony was very special for you. I used to be an Eagle... SWScouter

Trevorum, I just took a peek at the "Guide for Officers and Advisors" (see http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/). The election process is described on pages 22-28. From my perusal, I think the main reason an election team is needed is to ensure that the proper election procedures are followed. For example, was a unit election report filled out? I would think that if you and the youth member can meet with the election chief and ensure that yes, the proper procedures were followed that the election should stand. If this can't be done, then I think the election would not count. I would also have a frank talk with the election chief on how your unit was depending on the election team to show and if they had, this whole mess would not have occurred. Good luck, SWScouter

Hi Resqman, When my den worked on this, we shot rubber bands at various angles and measured the distance traveled. I made a simple apparatus that they used to perform the experiment with. I really tried to have them follow the scientific method so they came up with a hypothesis (what angle would shoot the farthest) and shot the same rubber band three times at each angle and took measurements. We averaged the distance for each angle and came up with a result that either proved or disproved the hypotheses that they came up with. There was some gotchas with the experiment so they had to adjust the method a bit and start over. I think it worked out well. Have fun with this, SWScouter

Hi rednosepit welcome to the forum. Is there some kind of story behind your username? Anyway, I believe I can answer some of your questions but first I want to clarify some terminology. CO stands for Chartered Organization. So the CO is the entity that charters the unit and is not a person. IH is the Institutional Head of the CO. The IH is a person. For example, if the CO is a church, then the IH may be its pastor. The Chartered Organization Representative (COR) is a member of the CO and the liason between the CO and the council and the CO and the unit. Now, the COR works at the pleasure of the CO, so the IH can remove the COR at any time. When it comes down to the brass tacks, the COR really has no say in it whatsoever. Can the CO revoke the charter at any time? I'm not really sure on this. The CO agrees to the charter on a yearly basis. I don't know what legal requirements there are with this agreement the CO has made with BSA. Of course, the IH can decide not to recharter when the charter is up for renewal. SWScouter

Akela in NY, As others have said, as a Catholic scouter, if you are awarded the St. George award, then you can wear the adult religious emblem knot. Your diocese most likely also awards the Bronze Pelican. I've heard of scouters wearing the knot after receiving that award though I've never read that one is eligible to. I've only seen documentation to wear the knot for receiving the St. George medal. The Bronze Pelican is awarded at the diocese level and the St. George is at the national level. I'd liken them to the District Award of Merit and the Silver Beaver respectively. I hope this helps, SWScouter

Saturday I attended my council's University of Scouting. One of the sessions I attended was training youth leaders. The two presenters did a great job and I found it very worthwhile. One of the presenters was a very cabable and eloquent young man of 19 years named Patrick Murphy. Many of you probably have heard of him since last year he was the National Chief of the OA, the highest youth leadership position in the BSA. The perspectives he offered as a scouter that just transitioned from scout were very interesting and revealing to me. One of them was to call the scouts youth. Don't call them boys or kids, call them youth. He said that the scouts, no matter the program, will find it more respectful and feel better about themselves and about their adult leaders. Interesting stuff. SWScouter

MarkS, I'm in close to the same situation you are. The other day I took the position, quality unit, den number, and unit numeral patches off and last night I sewed the new unit and position patches on. So far, I've left the trained patch on. I must say, it is nice to see the Assistant Scoutmaster match on my sleeve. I've already taken Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills, so I just need SM/SA specific training to be trained. Supposedly my district will be offering the class three weekends from now. Personally, I can't see bothering taking the patch off for such a short time. If the class doesn't occur, then I may. I do feel more or less trained though. I have read the Scoutmaster Handbook and am currently reading the syllabus for SM/SA specific. I'm only missing the video and the experience/interaction the training session will bring. I do count that for a lot though. SWScouter

Well, I've never had Swig's problems with a poncho. Gators keep the lower legs dry, especially if you're going through brush. If it starts raining, you don't even have to take your backpack off to put it on. All you have to do is have your buddy pull it out of your backpack and hand it to you so you can. When the rain stops, you don't even have to take it off, you can just throw the front part over your pack and continue hiking. This is especially nice when treking through rain showers. Now that's convenience. I also find that ponchos have much better ventilation than rain suits and that really does help keep one dry while hiking. From your response, It appears there really is no rule that says rain suits are required and I would be allowed to bring my poncho. Correct? So I guess I would go on that Philmont trek after all. SWScouter

Swigs, welcom to the forum I'm curious, why can't one have a poncho at Philmont? I grew up in Seattle and always used a poncho and gators when camping and hiking. I can't imagine dealing with the inconvenience of using a rain suit. If I had the opportunity to go to Philmont but wasn't allowed my poncho, I might just go somewhere else instead. SWScouter

I'm a Webelos 2 leader who had all 5 boys cross over to Boy Scouts last night. Not one boy is joining the troop chartered to the church that the pack is chartered to. I do feel bad about it, especially since the troop did help the den out. The troop put on a Readyman day for the pack's Webelos, the den visited a troop meeting and also went along on a campout in December. I talked to the troop's CC about it, I don't want to ruin relations between the pack and troop in anyway. He seems to understand and his main concern is that the boys continue in scouting, no matter the troop. The boys in the den are scattered around a large geographic area. My son and I live about 12 miles from the CO (closest Catholic school for my son to attend). All the boys are joining troops closer to where they live than the CO is. That had some bearing on the boys' choices but really, they felt much more welcome at the troops they're joining than the CO's. I'm especially impressed with the troop my son and two other boys joined. The boys were paid attention to and kept involved by the scouts every time they visited. The adults have great rapor with all the boys and their enthusiasm is obvious. Last night at the B&G the troop had a very large contingent there to receive the boys. It really was impressive. I think, why the den chose different troops to join is that they never really felt welcome at the CO's troop. They were at the activities but they weren't really a part of them. The Boy Scouts really didn't include the Webelos. My son was not enthusiastic at all about joining Boy Scouts, but that started to change when he first visited the troop he is joining. Each visit I could tell he was starting to anticipate becoming a Boy Scout. The reason I'm posting this is to give the perspective of a Webelos Leader finding a troop for the Webelos to join instead of a troop recruiting Webelos. SWScouter

BelindaB, I would sew the patch across the top and the two sides. That's what I do with my OA flap patches. I think that that works a bit better than just across the top like gwd-scouter suggests. So now, consider yourself a Mom with a needle and a clue SWScouter

SueM, Congratulations and well done! I think a district recognition dinner is a fine place to receive your beads. SWScouter I used to be an Eagle

I went and saw Michael Bourne's Swan Lake. During the intermission, a friend asked if we were watching BrokeBack Lake. Go figure.

My two cents, the tiger den shouldn't spend too much time working on Bobcat. There isn't much to it and it is mostly just memorization anyway. The tiger den should concentrate on doing fun activities that earn tiger tracks. Talk to the boy's adult partner and work out a plan on how he can earn his Tiger rank. Your den should still be doing activities that he can apply towards it. You are still planning on doing more go-see-its with the den anyway aren't you? SWScouter

GreyingBeaver, I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. I know a lot of very dedicated, trained, and well prepared LDS scouters. I see LDS scouters wearing wood badge beads at most every scouting event I attend. More than half of my wood badge patrol was LDS scouters. There are many LDS scouters serving in the district and council levels in my council. Those positions are NOT assigned by any LDS leadership. SWScouter

I hope this doesn't detract from this thread too much, but I have a couple of questions from SR540Beaver's post. "We just went thru elections two weeks ago and my son is now officially the APL for the patrol." Isn't APL selected by the PL? Or was a new PL elected and he assigned your son as APL? "Right or wrong, our PLC created requirements and expectations of leadership long before we joined the troop." I get the impression that APL is considered part of the PLC in the troop. Is that the case? I thought only SPL, ASPL, PL, and Troop Guides for New Scout Patrols were a part of the PLC. Of course, if a PL cannot attend a PLC meeting, then the APL should attend in his place. "the SM does utilize his ability to assign a project to a scout who has waited until the last minute for Eagle and needs leadership to get it." I didn't think that the SM can assign a leadership project in lieu of a POR for Eagle. Isn't that only for Star and Life? I hope these questions don't seem picky, but I'd really like to know how things are/should be. Thanks, SWScouter

Bourne, no offense, but that's just a darn lousy attitude. Have those leaders who gripe about the training done anything about it? Most of the BSA training is designed fairly well. Look at the syllibi for the different courses. There are some things that can be improved but in general the courses are pretty good. The problem tends to lie with the people doing the training. They may not be prepared well enough to present the material and their presentation skills may not be up to snuff. They may not follow the syllabus like they should and they may ramble on about some things that seem silly. Who are those presenters? They're us. They are our fellow scouters in the district or council that are giving their time to help us. Yes, I've sat through a few training sessions that weren't the best, but I've also gone and read a lot of the different syllibi and I've even helped out the district training staff so others will have a better and more worthwhile experience. So to say the training sucks and not do anything about it really is a lazy, I don't give a crap attitude. I'm sorry, this isn't meant to be a rant, but it seems to me that the people that gripe and complain about the training without being concerned about if they've learned the material the training is for are just looking for an excuse for whatever an excuse is needed for.

Hey Semper, I gotta think Super Bowl XXVII had the writing on the wall: Michael Jackson and 3500 local children. That would sure go over well now!

The Interfaith Religious Recognition Committee published a small handbook: "A Scout is Revernt, Duty to God Handbook" that has a chapter (4 pages) discussing the Unit Chaplain position. The contact in my copy is David Gironda gironda@qwest.net SWScouter

Yesterday I received a box with a bunch of cards and letters and such I had sent my parents over the years. One of the letters I had written while attending Troop Leader Development training. My oldest brother and sister must not have been living at home at the time because they weren't addressed in the opening. The letter is enclosed in a Camp Omache envelope with a totem pole print on the left side with the camp's address in Snohomish, WA and was postmarked July 5, 1973. The letter follows. All spelling and punctuation errors are from the original. I got a kick out of it, especially the last sentence. SWScouter 3rd Dear Mom, Dad, CHris, Katie, Robert, and Steven I hope you all have had fun these passed few days while I've been gone. It's been pretty fun up here. Today I'm the patrol leader of this patrol which consists of Bob Fordham, Jim Conway, Pat Limb, Andrew Dunn, and my Assistant Chris Spens. Today we layed penutbutter ona stump and I took a few pictures of a squirrel. Yesterday I was Assistant Patrol leader and had a lot of fun. I bought a camp Omache tea shirt. While our patrol was program patrol yesterday I was a color gaurd and we raised and lowered the queen Ann Flag and today we raised the Grand Union Flag. Tomorow are troop or the next program patrol I should say will raise old Glory for the fourth of July. I hope you have a good fourth of July cause I think I will. Oh I was wandering if you could send me a buck or so if you think this arrives early enough, thanks Love, Russell

I've spent close to five years with a den, the first as my son's adult partner in Tigers, the next two as Den Leader, and the rest as Webelos Den Leader. I've spent a lot of time with those boys, their parents, and siblings. I like to think I know all of them really well. Tonight I put on my uniform and visited two of the boys. We went over one of the AOL requirements and had a nice chat about our time together in the den and about moving on to Boy Scouts. It was a lot like a SM conference. I do agree with JD that a Den Leader can develop quite a wonderful relationship with the boys in the den. I think a SM can too with the boys in the troop, especially with his/her dealings with the boys through the SM conference. I got a glimpse of that tonight. Either way, it's really not the same type of relationship though is it? In three weeks, I will be an SA for the troop my son is joining. I'm very worried about learning and remembering all the scouts and scouters names. I have a hard time with both faces and names. I may recognize someone but have a hard time placing from where. I've reached the point in my life where I'll ask for someones name instead of waiting to hear it used. I really don't like that I have so much trouble remembering. I've tried all sorts of things to help me but I still have trouble. SWScouter

I'm not a big patch collector so maybe I'm not the greatest person to comment here. I haven't traded any patches and I don't really see myself doing that anytime soon. Perhaps if I went to Philmont, or NOAC or a jamboree I might bring a few dozen patches to trade. So far, what I have are the patches I accrued as a youth in the 70s. Things like camporee and rank patches, JLT, BSA mile swim, lifeguard, etc. I also have position patches I have held as a scouter and activities I have attended such as Pow Wow, woodbadge, etc. I just consider these patches an accumulation, though a sentimental part of my collection. I have started collecting patches produced from the OA lodge I am a member of. The lodge seems to create tons of different flaps. There's a lodge history set of three flaps, a back patch and a neckerchief. There's a countdown to 2010 flap series. The 2005 national chief was from my lodge and there's a flap commemerating that. The list goes on and I'll continue to by these lodge patches as they become available. This type of collecting isn't too expensive, nor time consuming and I enjoy it. Have fun with it, SWScouter