Sturgen

im less worried about checking the packs and more worried about your adults, why are they doing so much, if it wont kill the boys let them make a mistake or two, i would ask that you rething your one winter campout, why not say 4 or 5 that way they learn quicker, as an adult leader it is your job to keep them alive the best way to learn is through mistakes and i promise you when they learn that jeans arnt a great idea for a winter hike, they wont do it again, from the sound of things your at a scout resident or other type of camp that you can drive into, so you have a saftey net of a car so if you do get any hypothermic kids who need medical attention that can simply be solved, i compliment you on not taking a key to the cabin, but the next step would be to let the kids teach, learn and live

may i suggest ventureing, if the boys are still interested and are a life as of 18, they should still be able to earn ranger, very similar to the eagle rank, although it may be attained at 21, this is a great program for older boys and girls 14-21

I use a version of this as a speach for special flag ceremonies (dedications, first flying of a new flag, last flying of a soon to be retired flag 4th of july, etc)

Here, here. Please sign my name up, being one with strong opinions, that have managed to anger both with a single post (thank you, thank you) i have noticed that alone they simply criticize and recite BSA policy, and together they repeat each other while slinging insults for kicks and giggles

I must admit now that my "revolutionary" beliefs tend to bring up issues like this often, which i guess was kind of the point of me bringing this up, i, to an extent, wanted to see if there were any other individuals in scouting with opinions comparable to mine, a little background on my troop, although i would rather not mention the number, it is located in the western region and has long been this way, for atleast 35 years, since the current scoutmaster took the postition for a brother who had a son in the troop. from that date untill the mid 90's he was the only acting scoutmaster at which point several men joined as ASM's in the past decade, two have sons in the troop, 2 have had sons in the troop who droped out although the dads remained active, and 2 are 19-22 yr old eagles from the troop, i was not aware of the 70's shot at boy run boards, which is most likely the founding of such in my troop. in regards to a comittee, we do have a standing commitee which observes the BOR for general rank and Eagle, however they allow the boys to make the decision and sign off on such. I am quite aware that many of the policies are against national policy, but in my time i have seen enough rullings made at the national, regional, and council level to know that they are not infallible. I am not saying it isnt possible that a 14 yr old can earn eagle, im simply saying that in my years in scouting i have NEVER met one, i will admit i do not have as many years on my pack as FOG or OGE, but as a camp staffer you see alot of boys, and work with alot of them, i also ran part of a camporee , where a compass course, built for the 14 yr olds in my troop, stumped several eagles. my point is that i have worked alot with a broad range of youth from all over the western states and have yet to meet one boy under 14 i can proudly say hes and Eagle Scout, i know a few guys that earned eagle at 15 and after a few years i was proud to say the same thing, and i know a few more that earned the rank at 16 who at that date deserved it in my opinion, and in contrast i know pitty eagles who were given the rank at 18 - 1 day, which is unfortunate, but i still maintain that 16 is the earliest that i have ever observed someone to earn the rank. i would like to state, for the record, that im not saying any of you out there have recieved the eagle rank at 12-15 did not earn it, by the fact youre still involved in scouting most likely i would be honored to consider myself as part of your group, however i never knew any of you back then, so i cant testify to your qualifications in my opinion. i have brought some of these issues at the district and council level and as you might not be surprised brought up alot of resentment. Is it so wrong that if i see a problem in an organization i love, and have spent 3/4 of my life in, that i try to solve it, not to be melodramatic but when a serious problem is seen in an organization, is it not the right, no the responsablity of those aware of the issue to bring about change. i am well aware of the BSA's resistance to change, as i have had my job threatened for bringing up saftey, program, and leadership issues at my scout camp.

The board of review is lead by the SPL and the board is composed of everyscout over the rank of Scout, the new scout patrols scouts go into another room with thier instructor who tests them on their basic skills durring the board, each scout has a vote with equal weight, and adults have no vote or right to state whether a scout should go up in rank although they may ask questions of the nominee, normally the Senior Patrol, JASM's and any other scout will ask the nominee a question or make a general comment good or bad, then the scout is asked to leave the room, all but the adults and JASM's lower their heads and vote yes or no, it takes 50% to pass normally however if their is an obvious bias or other issue, the scouts are reminded to vote their opinion not thier friendships etc, and a second vote is taken, 3 boys (12, 15, and 16) are working on building a sight, as soon as it is complete i would be more than happy to post the address, i would also be happy to scan relavent parts of our annual report and email them to anyone interested, email me at sturgen611@hotmail.com if you would like a copy, this may take a few weeks to get back to you as i will have to scan, or even better have the historian scan all of the pages and edit out phone numbers etc, but i will get it to you as soon as i can i believe i mentioned it in my first post but i believe 16 would be the proper age to begin an eagle project, most often leading to a scout earning the rank at the age of 16 or 17(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

i guess encourage would be a better word than prompt, at 11 a kid is going to need help, they cant really bike across the city with several hundred dollars in checks to pay, but if the scout is the one doing the work, the planning, and taking responsability for his actions then he is the leader, if a leader or older scout check their work and help them come to a better solution if need be then that isnt leading that is teaching

note that i have no problem with prompting from mom and dad, i have an issue with doing by mom and dad, now i continue, since in one case the scouts parents were not there and had little concern with camp, mute point, in that case i as a 16 yr old prompted him, of course you are going to need to hvve an adult drive them to the scout office to file papers and pay, and in some cases put an adult signature on something, but these boys did all of the accounting for every penny and every form, they made sure that we had dads going, that we had enough transportation, permision slips etc. i acted as an advisor for both of these trips, i was 16 and 17 if i recall, and double checked every thing they did, and corrected a few mistakes, but let them do all of the work

Let me try to address each concern seperatly: why is it wrong to evolve rules from how they were founded its been done before, merit badges are constantly becomeing easier, i remember reading that dads could earn the eagle rank, i do forget when this was but i think it was 40's or 50's, life evolves, back when scouting was founded, kids had to grow up alot faster, a 14 yr old was expected to have a job and be able to care for himself, this is no longer true as to how this "screw up Boy Scouts advancement program" i would like to know, it does change it, but if we presume boy scouts is here to help the boys, it does, from my observation 80% of those boys that get eagle at 14ish drop out within a few months, therefore eliminating an "older" scout from your troop and therefore a leader and instructor, i must note that i come from a boy run troop and this is vital for such a troop to run with out adults butting in, this also keeps these older kids involved in a program that i know you will all agree is one of the best in the world for turning boys into men please dont mention "what about their selfesteem", the greatest crock of the 20th cent. And OGE your right and of the eagles i have met only those over 16 have actualy EARNED the rank, hence my aggreement that 16 would be appropriate, please note that it is not the job of the adults to guide the new boys, ideally the SM should guide the SPL and/or JASM alone and allow those older boys to guide the younger scouts nldscout: thanks for asking and not fighting, its actually very simple, using scout lead boards of review and very high expectations in following the scout law and oath as well as leadership skill most scouts dont earn their star untill 14 and life untill 16, not enforced but just average, that leaves more than enough time to plan and carry out a project, also making the requirements to earn eagle more difficult also helps, for starters each scouts project is expected to have atleast 500 hrs of labor, i have worked on ones as a scout in my troop with 4000 hrs of labor, and only one quarter of those hours may be the potential eagles, forcing him to train his replacements. If you tell the boys when they join that signing up with this troop means youre going to be here for 7 yrs before you earn your eagle this gives them ample opportunity to find another troop if they wish, ignore KISKIF, make it hard, make it fun as surprising as it may sound the transfers from our troop to another are very low, weve had two boys that transfered to one of the "better troops" according to council, and they both droped with in 3 months because "if [they were] going to earn eagle [they] wanted to do it right", our drop out rate is actually below the national and council average, while the porportional number of eagles is actually higher than the council average. (on a side note we have several scouts transfer into our troop from other local units) in closing i would like to say that though i see where you are comming from, making changes isnt always screwing something up, im sure someone is going to start spamming me with viri for this but the designers and current leaders (national/regional/council) are not perfect, they make mistakes, it is the job of the troop leaders to correct these mistakes when they can, i would love nothing more than make a change at the national level, but since that will never happen, i am proud to atleast improve the program for one unit

Sorry Bob, that is the way it works, and in 10 yrs in the troop personally and with the head SM's 30yrs, i have only heard of one case of favortism in this model, which is nothing when you consider this happens twice a year, and in that one case the other adults and i reminded the boys of why we hold these boards of review and held a revote and the issue was solved

I just thought i would see what people here think, and stir up some debates. What do you THINK the min age for a scout to EARN the Eagle Rank should be? Personaly i am proud to be from a troop where you do not have a choice but to wait untill 17, almost 18, but i am fine with 16 yrs of age. But as an Eagle, i find it insulting to see 12, 13 and 14 yr olds running around wearing the patch and or badge when they cant even tie a square knot, or even better they cant remember much about thier project because "[thier] mommy handled all of that stuff" as a star scout i have taught many an "eagle" basic scouting skills they should have mastered while earning merit badges. My primary reason for believing such a late age to be best is that in all of the young boys i have witnessed go through my troop, as both a boy and a leader, and the thousands of boys i have seen as a summer camp staffer it is my observation that untill the age of 14 99.9% of boys have about a 00.1% chance of retaining anything I am not asking for the BSA's official answer, unless you actually agree with it, i can add up the months between ranks(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

I know someone is going to jump on my back for this so here it goes. How well do scoutmasters really know the boys, to be blunt, not well at all, you dont see them at school or for the most part outside of scouts, but guess who does, the other boys, leave it up to them, for the ranks of 2nd class and up let the troop discuss in an open meeting with the scout present how he represents scouting, ask him specific questions, in general i have found this takes 2-3 hours for a troop of 30, granted its alot of time but well worth it and it can be split up into a couple of meetings

It works i have seen it, i have also seen 12 yr olds lead 16 yr olds, it happens all the time, atleast for the boys in my troop, there is no reason why a scout as young as 11 or 12 cant lead a weekend hike, bike, or paddle. pressuming that they have an older scout advising them and a scoutmaster not getting in the way (ie just make sure they get home alive) i can name three young men in the past 5 years who at the age of 14 (or younger) lead a fifty mile or longer hike, 2 12 yr olds that organized the entirety of going to res camp, yes that includes the daily scoutmaster meetings, collecting the money, med forms, etc

Im a strong believer in the new scout patrol, with an instructor, the patrol is still able to function, with a patrol leader and his assistant. and the instructor insures that the scouts learn the basic skills of scouting. usual in my troop the instructor has final say as to when the new scouts move on normally around 2nd class, sometimes earlier, sometimes later depending on thier maturity and skill level, if your lucky then a new scout patrol can move up as a group into a middle patrol position, to simplify the issues with names, my troop has all new scouts as pinetrees, if we have a large number then they each pinetree patrol chooses a name (alpha, bravo, flaming pinetrees, yellow, white, black, squirrel infested, etc.)

Having worked for 4 years at a scout camp, all in "high adventure" areas i have found the best thing to do is offer as much as you can for both younger and older scouts, along with a few things for the dads, granted some handycraft badges are a one hour sign off but those are the requirements, and sometimes having that 11 yr old earning 6 or 8 badges his first summer will keep him in scouting for life, but most camps also offer a vast majority of the required badges as well as other experiences, Im partial to COPE and would suggest it to all old enough. As to being experts, i would agree it would be best that every staffer is an expert in his/her field, but the sad fact is that sometimes councils are short on funds and time and there isnt always enough money to hire experts, or time to create them. then you have to make a choice, is it better to have experts on the waterfront, climbing tower, rifle range, and cope course, and have a relativly inexperienced individual teaching basketry, bird study, and other "safe" merit badges or somewhat trained individuals everywhere, when it comes to saftey i choose the first.

In my opinion it is best to stick to your area, if you are from the plains design your regalia in a plains motif, or even better take the time to study local tribes/nations, museums do wonders, im not saying copy, make yours unique to you or your lodge, find or let a totem find you or use your lodges, i cant speak for all areas but some tribes/nations can be very helpfull in helping you design dance wear or cerimonial wear, some will even help you get materials, but whatever you do stay away from hollywood

As an ASM in the troop i grew up in, a completly boy lead troop, i have found the best thing to do is let them make mistakes, in the long run its not going to matter if a trip doesnt go off with out a hitch, as long as they learn from the mistakes, be there, make sure they dont fall off a cliff and all will eventually go well, I am constantly remided of the most important lesson in scouting i ever learned, There are 4 vital points to scouting that LBP set forth 1) teach the boys to be skillfull 2) teach the boys to lead 3) let them lead 4) never do anything a boy can do if these points are followed then your job should be easy, limited to driving and showing up YIS- Sturgen