Sturgen

If you are directing your question at me, I apologize for any obscenities I may have used, but I do believe I have yet to do such nor do I plan to.

Wait, so fat old guy is disagreeing with BSA policy, this is a great day in history. Would this be admitting that not every national policy is correct?

if you believe something is fishy email me the mailing address for your local council office and your troop number and i would be more than happy to mail you one of our troops yearly reports that covers the majority of our trips, the philosophy behind the troop and how and why it works, i hope you understand if i take the liberty to black out phone numbers, addresses and/or other private information of the youth sturgen611@hotmail.com thats where you can find me, forgive me if the report is a year or two old, but we need to save the 2002-2003 for new scouts

I was going through the troop archives and found some old rosters (1985- 1990) , i decided to take a close look at them and found that for each of the rosters about 50% of the boys on there earned their eagle, the lowest percent was 46 i believe and the highest was 62%, when you consider that national is happy with 1% or 2% being given eagle, 50% earning eagle is dang good if you ask me

okeydokey her isd wear u can complante abut speling wrongs justd fur yu OGE, FOG, ect, enjoyed, plese lve da other foroms furd the scoting thngds, and OGE, that would be closser to ghetto than anything else you use

REMINDER, this thread is about summer camps and merit badges, not the merits or faults of the modern education system vs older versions of education, on that note I would encourage all of you to go to summer camp or even better serve at least one summer on a camp staff.

i would like to make it clear for the record, as fog has brought this up twice. i consider pages such as this to be lax, and due to that fact take little if anytime to spell or grammar check my posts, i realize that often my posts are an insult to any english teacher however, frankly my dear

Mine are a bit odd, i know, thats what you get for working at camp: 1) On top of a zip line on COPE, finished hooking a kid up and unclip him from the pole, 110 d F in the air, and the kid freeks, eventually i have to explain every working part of the system and how it works, then i promise to call his parrents and take care of his girlfriend if he dies, and eventually got him to go, then he went twice more. 2) First year as a area director, first night of program, at an outpost island, with a bridge to land, 20 scouts and two junior staffers in my care, 9pm telling kids stories at a campfire, my two staffers go to there teepee to get some gear and hear a cougar in the woods between them and the rest of the boys. oh fun you say, they wait for the cat to move, then come down to the me and radio base camp, we set up a perimeter and keep the boys distracted, rush them into the small trappers cabin and wait untill all the senior staffers with cars come up with lights flashing and radios blairing, followed by the ranger, his son and his neigbor armed with hunting rifles, come up, by the time all of the boys are evacuated, the cabin is secure, and the SM's are briefed its 1 am and time for me to write a report in triplicate 3)making the best friends i could ever meet in the world

No way on a monitary tip, however a sincere thank, an invitation to go on a pack/troop outing, or perhaps pack/troop hat, shirt or patch could be appropriate, one thing some troops do is have a slide, pin or patch, something cheap and unique to the unit, that they give to staffers that go above and beyond the call of duty

Personaly i would do both, find out why he hasnt payed attention and tell him to come back before the next board of review ready, atleast 6 months wait

(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

we involve ourselves with some of the important council events (ie scouting for food) although we do not attend camporee's, scoutaromas and other such things as a unit. i have no problem in participating in said events but if the boys would rather go on a 10 mile backpacking trip, im going to by far support the real camping and not the car camping, we make a decided effort and almost always are successful in having two overnight hikes, skis, snowshoes, or boat trips every month, at all of these the boys sleep in tarps or natural shelters, not tents, unless required by the location. we stridently oppose the popcorn drive and other fundraising, being as we raise all the money we need through an annual pasta dinner, sales of a bronze statue of two of our scouts, "footsteps to the future" (you may know it, its also used for the national merit award in scouting i believe) we do not however leave the council bare, we donate $5 per boy to FOS as a troop, out of the general funds as well as carry a subscription to boys life for every family (4 groups of siblings are in the troop at this point) and paying for the membership fee for both boys and adults to join the unit, as i have said we attend the local res camp most every summer, along with a 50/100 mile backpacking trip, a 150-200 mile bike, 30 mile shakedown backpack, along with an occasional rock or mountain climbing trip (dont worry two of the SM's are instructors for the mountaineers)

OGE, i dont mean to lump you in, but you are one to quote regs, although you are by far not as outlandish as the other two

Hunt, i dont mean to be insultive if you are not, but are you a mother? Scouts do not judge the person, the judge how well they follow the scout law and oath, as i have said before and i will say again it is the job of the SM, ASM's, and JASM's at the back table (around 5 or 6) to insure that the kids dont vote popularity, and the rare time that occurs, it is the job of the SM to remind the boys what they are voting on then have them vote again, the second time has always come up with a fair vote, if for somereason it does not then i suppose the SM and his asst. could make an executive decision although i would strongly suggest against it the scout being "judged" is always given a chance to rebutle any complaints against him, some common question the scout are asked are: What do you think you rate on a 1-10 scale (as a leader, in regards to the Scout law and oath, in your skills)? What do you think it means to be a (2nd, 1st, Star, Life, Eagle) Scout? Do you think you are/deserve to be a (2nd, 1st, Star, Life, Eagle) Scout? How many trips have you lead/assisted on/gone on? Occasionally there will be a skill question like tie this knot, but these are rare as you can see we force the scout in question to evaluate themselves, and my policy was to base my vote on how honest they were with themselves, most often a scout who is not ready for a rank will ask not to go through the board or after the board resigns himself from the vote, and most of the time they earn the rank at the next COH in 6 months. (may i note, i was turned down for star three times and life two times, there were tears as there sometimes are, but those boys were some of my best friends and still are today)

sorry mrs RED, our flag is the best flag

nlds- 1. Won't tell us who he really is or what troop he is from. in my council i am known by the name of sturgen by most, its not this board but the internet i dont trust and never give out my birth name, if you look at my profile i give you my council name, and the city in whic i reside, if you realy wish to know the troop number, call the counci and ask them what troop is the greatest thorn in their side. 2. Has a bunch of radical whacked out idea's on how troops should be run. radical yes, whacked out no, it was once thought radical to wear a short sleaved shirt, times change, i hope im just ahead of the times 3. Has deceided that everyone else is wrong and his troop is right. I have observed such, i wanted to see if there were any other troops out there with similar ideas, and to offer my ideas to others, to start my glorious revolution 4. Look at the numbers he quoted for eagle project. Minimum of 500 hrs, thats like 100 days of work, and one that had 4000, thats like 800 days of work. Perhaps i should have said man hours, for the increadably dence, which isnt that hard when you have even four or five boys working at any one time, in regards to the 4000 hr one that was building a disabled skiers chalet on a local ski mountain, which had alot of labor from sources outside of the troop, contractors, architects, concrete companies, etc, and since im sure that your going to mention the 1/4 of the hours thing, thats to prove leadership, and aslong as you have 6 people at all times outside of planning your able to pull that off normally Maybe not but I smell a TROLL or an agitator looking to stir everyone up: Actually you smell a fat white ugly fish, and yes i know sturgeon is the correct spelling but the name is Sturgen obviously you never read the first post: "I just thought i would see what people here think, and stir up some debates" I think my goal has been completed, i know who hear is moderate, who hear are bible thumpers, or more accuratly handbook thumpers, i have a pretty good idea who has gone through woodbadge robot production and who is simply there for the boys to the rest i resent the fact that we make a "shambles", "mess", etc of the bsa with our "whacked out" troop, just remember that they always call the revolutionaries crazy, and its that insanity that allows them to win in the end mk- i dont know about other councils, but mine seems to be dominated by individuals that believe the best course of action to resolve any issues is to kick those bringing up issues out, a brief example, we had a rifle instructor who ran the range in a manner in which we were afraid that someone would get shot, we wrote the council program director, the council executive, and the camp director (gold looper) and told them of the issue, (two bsa nra rifle instructors and two bsa archery instructors as well as 5 other return staffers signed the letter) we were all threatened to be fired if we took any further action, btw, the director continued to fire cross range, point weapons at or almost at scouts, run a rifle and shotgun range at the smae time with one 21 yr old, fire shotgun on the rifle range while scouts were trying to qualify, throw scouts hats out in the dirt and shoot at them, we know of another individual who was kicked out for demanding supplies for his area. i would like to stay in the bsa. i am very aware what the DE and CE would say,as well as the letter i would be getting the next day inviting me to leave or have charges trumped up against me, hence why i am waiting to bring about change until i know i have others behind my POV, perhaps scouting will never have a renaissance. in closing i have found that this page is dominated by handbook thumpers it seems and it perhaps would be a great resource if i want to know what regulation C217-B8-2D is, but i can call the council office for that, as a source for unique opinions on what policy ought to be there seems to be little if any use to post on hear unless perhaps you can ban BobW, OGE and FOG, not saying that you should just that the three simply quote regs, im sure all are highly involved in the adult leader robot program(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

if following blindly makes you a citizen then we would be speaking with a british accent and boiling sheep guts for food. i am working to change them from inside, but im not going to apply lip to cheek to get to a regional or national position to do so, i work hard to provide the best program for the boys heres a bit on one of my battles i won, that you would support, my troop as a youth never went to resident camp, hadnt for 20 or so years and never attended any council events including roundtables, since i joined and began being a "poor citizen" as you define it we have attended res camp 5 times and have been the entirety of one roundtable to teach the district the values of a true boy lead troop as you define a citizen bob, im glad to be an outlaw, for you and you alone i shall design the rebel flag of scouting and formaly begin my charge on texas, lets see by bsa policy i can only be armed with .22's, 12 gauges, and .50 cals with 25 grains of powder, well that cuts down my arms a bit but i guess i will have to do then you have the 2DLS stuff egad its going to be complicated

why should it be more difficult, because its easy enough for immoral idiots to earn, and bobby good sir, if you havnt noticed i have a fairly good hold on what BSA policy is, still doesnt make it the right policy, i supose if national proclaimed that on december 21st you have to hop up and down on one foot while saying aroot bong with your teath covered by your lips and arms flapping like a bird you would be out making a fool of yourself in a few days i also resent the implication that i am being anything but truthfull, and by the way we happen to be in america where the scoutmaster and his assistants have the RIGHT to do anything considered legal by the good old U.S. of A.

I dont mean to be pompous, but it is very easy to tell who has worked at a camp before on here i dont know about other coucils but here are a few facts for INWC (most things are national standards) - COPE, climbing, rifle, shotgun, Head cook and waterfront directors MUST be atleast 21 - Director for all other areas must be 18 - other payed staff must be 15 or older - staff in training (14 yrs old) cant teach a merit badge on their own - COPE and climbing staff must all be atleast 16 - there are ratios for staff to campers (youth and adults) that are required at COPE, climbing, shooting sports and waterfront - COPE, Climbing and aquatics also have to have atleast one 18 yr old assistant - each week staffers get 24 hrs off (noon sat- noon sunday) - 24 hour on call, if something comes up (fire, cougars/bears on camp, hail, thunder storms, kids fighting in camp, YPI) you dont always get to sleep, personally i have had a couple of 42 hour days in 105 degree heat now an insight into pay (per week before tax) : - SIT: $O - 1st yr junior staff: $72 - 2nd yr junior staff: $82 - 1st yr senior staff 18: $125-$175 depending on area - 1st yr senior staff 21: $175-$225 depending on area - Camp Director, Program Director and Head Cook: $275-$350 high risk areas (shooting, aqua, climbing, COPE) normally are on the upper end of the scale, kitchen staff and commishioners normaly also make an extra $10 or $15 this is just a sample i could go on for pages, but i hope some of you get the point, you have to have alot of staffers who are college and working age, most of which already have steady jobs or school to pay for, and most boys over 16 can find a good paying summer job, so why would they come to camp for literally pennies compared to what they could make at McDonalds flipping burgers, it takes a certain breed of person to work staff, one that cares more for scouting than money, believe it or not thats hard to find. unfortantly you also have the worst part of working camp staff.... SCOUTMASTERS. nothing can ever be perfect for a SM, and they always seem to have the best plan, but never willing to help implement it, they also seem to have fun driving boys to tears, although there are always the few who wear the chickmagnet shirt and claim their personality as the best form of birth control, those are the ones that you want the plain old dads, those are the ones that make it worth it, if you want to improve your local camp, take a few months off work and volunteer as a couciler, otherwise having an expert teaching every badge while still offering enough merit badges to allow a scout to come to camp more than once as well as making sure all your boys leave camp alive (i know some parents wouldnt mind on the last one but its the law)is going to cost atleast double of what your paying now, anyone open to the idea

why discuss the scout when hes out of the room? then they get little if any feed back on how hes doing, how do you expect him to improve? In 20 boy lead boards of review i have never seen one turn cruel, or have any sort of hate or dislike become apparent, and believe me, there are a few boys in there that at times have come close to blows, mostly brothers

dont worry we use crampons so actally soccer on a hockey rink works out just fine, atleast when we use armor grade leather for the ball

what in the case of a crew made of camp staffers, green, grey or the camps colors, on the green shirt

hops_scout i would suggest you read the post but i will summerize for you how that is resolved, the SM, ASM, and/or JASM remind the boys that we dont vote on the person, we vote on thier dedication to scouting, ability to lead and confidence in their skills, if the vote is obviously biased after the first vote you remind them again and hold a second vote, then stick with their second choice, the only time i have seen favortism make a significant change in a vote it was in the scouts favor, and although i was disapointed in the boys, i have a feeling that wouldnt be as big of an issue to you, and since the boys dont see who voted for who there is a relative elimination of peer preasure, if you would like more details feel free to ask anytime

"I'll never understand the male gender." the word you are looking for is sex, not gender :"I'll never understand the male sex." ok, done with that im sorry to say but none of you are real scouts, or campers for that matter you forgot that all problems can be solved with a role of this wonderfull stuff called..... duct tape.... oh yeh, all you do is start taping the item up around and around untill its all covered and you cant see anything else, and now you can choose from more than just classic silver and black, no paper, no cutting tools, no ribbon, just tape, and for extra fun put your watch or gift certificate in a fridge box filled with bricks, rocks and newspapers, covered with tape, placed inside another box covered with tape. oh i love the holidays

"And there is no internal affairs department of the BSA -- I made that up." you fools: they are real and the agents very simply to identify, they are men in their lat3 50's to early dead, they all have graying beards and balding heads, normaly have the standard OA gut and go by names like FOG. be aware they are the agent smiths of the BSA they report directly to big brother and shall destroy you all seriously, i like the idea of using black for funerals, i had never heard of that before, perhaps i shall have to make a pair for myself, another thing i have seen is one red and one green on the khaki shirt, ach, no never, or a red with a single angle bar in white for aquatics staff at a camp, and correct me if im wrong but doesnt venturing allow for for uniform to be defined by the crew through the bylaws, and therefor use what ever loops they want?