Sturgen

Novel thought bob, how much do two equivalent patches cost on average, same thread count same colors, same quantity, etc. Just on average, come on, you can do it.

I didnt get as close of a look at it as I would have liked but I think the true question would be in whether or not it was a flag patterned poncho or a poncho made of flags, although I personally choose not to wear any items that could be construed as being made from a flag, bandanas, t-shirts, shorts, etc that have a pattern similar enough to the US flag. As long as those items of clothing are not made from actual flags I consider it a sign of patriotism, although perhaps misguided, I have always had an urge to wear a bandana while rock climbing that has a blue field with white stars and red and white strips surrounding it, but have chosen not to, simply to reduce conflict, instead resorting to a plain, less symbolically important bandana. hops-scout: Unfortunately nothing that kid rock did was ILLEGAL. The first amendment of the constitution has protected anyone from prosecution for defacing the US flag in any way, shape or form. The courts have supported this position multiple times. Personally I believe it should be considered a hate crime, however that is not the law.

A lot depends on the crew, some are branches off of troops, some are independent, the independent ones I have seen seem to focus more on car camping, helping out camporees, Klondikes and the such, and only the venturing awards. My crew is independent of a troop, but made entirely of current or recent camp staff members, so naturally we focus on our camp.

True, chances are that I have never met your mother, however chances are that if she has lived for any length of time in any of the states on either the east or west coast, or ever visited Washington (not the District of Columbia) or Idaho, then the two of us have inhabited the same state at one time or another. Either way, I fail to see your point; outside of perhaps that you are of the opinion that she is an excellent Scouter...

I would like to make something clear as to my beliefs regarding women in general. I have nothing but the highest respect for women, I plan to marry one (and only one) in the relatively near future. I have no issues with women in the business, military, or civil services as long as they may complete their job effectively. However it is my opinion that the vast majority of women cannot fulfill the jobs of SM, ASM, or any of the other leader positions in Boy Scouts, not because of some lack of ability to carry out the technical job, (book keeping, advising, camping, etc) but because of purely biologically caused maternal instincts, a softer heart, and other factors typical in the average American female when dealing with their offspring. Which tends to keep them from permitting their sons to experience life out of the bubble. My cousin in the LA area is a prime example, he has never been camping farther than a mile from the cars, and was shocked when my brothers and I explained why you need a backpack to do any real type of camping, or heaven forbid the idea of cooking on a campfire. With a vast majority of my life dedicated to scouting, and being very active at the council and district levels and have observed leaders from hundreds of troops. The vast majority of troops run by female scoutmasters were dominated by the scoutmaster leaving little if any choices to the boys, a major exception to this I note is in troops from military bases, and the surrounding area, (a function I believe of the lifestyle of our courageous men and women at arms and their families). As I have asserted before Boy Scouts was designed to be a youth run organization, unfortunately due to the beliefs held by many of the individuals on this site it has fallen to its current state as the B(aby) S(itters) of A(merica). I recognize that in todays society the nuclear family is difficult to find, even more so in urban areas, an unfortunate consequence of the intrusion of false values into American Culture. (I am not trying to place blame on any of the specific parties involved (unless one of the three As is involved of course)). Because of this female scoutmasters MAY be a necessity for keeping this valuable, although somewhat corrupt, program active in these areas. Doesnt mean that I like it, doesnt mean I think its appropriate, simply that I accept it as fact. -Sturgen

Scoutmom: This is why I do not go camping with him. Which means that if he is having problems on camping trips, I will be going on the next trip and observing events. So which is it, do you go camping or not? He also knows when things are not right, or to his liking and that he has every right to speak up about what he doesn't like. He also knows he can depend on me checking on all the facts before I react to anything. To me this says, if hes not happy I check up on it. Welcome to life, its not supposed to be all fun and games, maybe he doesnt like the stew he had for dinner on a trip, or his he doesnt get to share a tent with his best friend, who cares, its part of life. Now if there is an actual, and serious safety issue I have no issue with someone checking up on him, however it is my humble opinion that this is a job best left to a father, or a father figure, even an older brother or cousin, when in regards to a BSA function.

I did forget to mention that the troop I grew up in and am now a leader in never allowed mothers to do anything, outside of driving the kids to weekly meetings. They were never asked to go on trips, and it was strongly implied that they werent welcome on them, in my years in the troop we had one mother go, who managed to complain the entire time on a relatively easy hike, and wanted to pay for her and her son to sleep in a near by rafting camp that had a small cabin. In fact even the tasks most would equate as the mothers job, sewing on badges and baking cookies for COHs and Scout Sunday are tasks left to the boys. I would also like to point out that I define a man, not as an adult male, but as an individual who takes responsibility for his actions, works hard, takes care of his business and his families in an intelligent and respectable way, Im aware that this contrast can cause issues in meaning. Now that I sound like Dr. Laura, I best be off to getting me a darn good edgumacation in du skooleing stuff.

I did forget to mention that the troop I grew up in and am now a leader in never allowed mothers to do anything, outside of driving the kids to weekly meetings. They were never asked to go on trips, and it was strongly implied that they werent welcome on them, in my years in the troop we had one mother go, who managed to complain the entire time on a relatively easy hike, and wanted to pay for her and her son to sleep in a near by rafting camp that had a small cabin. In fact even the tasks most would equate as the mothers job, sewing on badges and baking cookies for COHs and Scout Sunday are tasks left to the boys. I would also like to point out that I define a man, not as an adult male, but as an individual who takes responsibility for his actions, works hard, takes care of his business and his families in an intelligent and respectable way, Im aware that this contrast can cause issues in meaning. Now that I sound like Dr. Laura, I best be off to getting me a darn good edgumacation in du skooleing stuff.

To start out, I agree, in part with the large almost dead man, ok, wait, give me a second to explain before the lynching. I am a firm believer in Boy Scouts being an exclusively male organization. The reason for this is that although it may not be officially one of the goals of scouting, the troops job is to turn a boy into a man, which can not be done when you have mommy watching over his shoulder. In many ways den mothers are preferable to den fathers in the earlier Cubbie years, and I have no problem with female advisors in venturing, although I do believe it is advisable to have every registered member of a venturing crew, male, female, youth, and adult, be relatively young (say under 35) as well as preventing any parents acting as advisors in their sons/daughters crew. Scoutmom: That is my child and I will not put him in a situation that is uncomfortable for him. If you want your son to grow and mature into a self-sustaining man then you will let him learn to deal with uncomfortable situations on his own, with out you there to help him with a blanket and pacifier. I happen to have more Scouting experience and Training (currently working my ticket) than more than a few of the ASM's in the Troop. This is a slight side bar but just because you have gone through woodbadge doesnt mean you have more experience, all of the best leaders I know have never gone through woodbadge, and a few that I have know have been turned into poorer leaders by woodbadge, I freely admit however that I have not gone through the program, I am trying to save up funds and/or convince my council to pay for me to go through the week program. BSA470Firstaider: I hate to break it to people but where do you think babies come from.. I dont believe that FOG is saying women arent necessary to the survival of humanity. Women add a second viewpoint, they give scouts a motherly figure to go to Just a shot in the dark, but arent mothers there as motherly figures? some of the best people i've met through boy scouts have been female both adult and youth In regards to the youth I would agree, and I have met a few mothers whom were simply mothers of coworkers at camp, great women, support the program, but not by butting in and taking charge where the boys should be leading. But also the worst Scouters I have met have been female, both youth and adult. Think about everyday life, look around, women can do the same things men can and possibly do them better. Im all for equal rights, but your forgetting one big thing women cant do, get drafted Fat Old Guy: I also find it interesting that women seem to want to get involved in men's activities but you rarely seem men clamoring to get into a women's school, gym or club. Most likely if a grown man did, he would face being viewed as / accused of being a pedophile. As a 19 yr old scouter I may face the same criticism as firstaider. I readily admit that the abilities of the leader are more important than their sex, but their ability to control their emotions is also important, and you cant have a venture leader and camp cook, storm off in a temper tantrum because two 18 yr olds were better at her job than she was. In contrast two of the best scouters I know is a young married couple (in their early 20s) both of whom do more than their share for the council, and scouting in general. The women is the best archery director I have ever seen, being able to have 85% of the boys in her archery class pass the merit badge. I also am a strong supporter of youth females being able to be elected into the OA through a Crew, two young ladies I can think of specifically who deserve to be members of the order, more than several members of my lodge. To summarize: Women in venturing great Mothers in venturing not so great Women in troops not so great Mothers in troops counter productive

My troops charter church always trys to tie scouting into the service. Eagles are always a good subject, as well as service to others, good turns, etc. I can'timagine the church would have an issue with this.

The Flag of the United States of America ALWAYS proceeds any other flag when on US owned or occupied soil. It may be "joined" by another state, national, or military flag directly to its side or behind it. Please also note that the US flag needs to be to the presentors left (audiences right) and at an equal or greater hight then any other flagwhen placed on display

Evolution is a theory supported by many known pieces of evidence. It is generally believed that it is not a fact. The underlying goal is to search for truth using a method of science. You seem to imply that evolutionary theory is believed to be incorrect by the masses? Did you just happen to skip every science class known to man? Or perhaps you simply wouldnt dare associate with those sinners who believe in evolution? It really must be a lonely life for you. I do suppose that hundreds of years of exact scientific study all over the world ought to be ignored because a single book says so. We have seen species evolve, we have fossil records, whether God directly caused these changes in the animal kingdom or simply started the chain of events, is up to interpretation. Either way, life in the modern era was determined by life millions of years ago, its a simple, proven, scientific fact. Geology and Physics have proven Earth to be somewhere in the realm of 4.6 billion years old. Bishop Ussher (1645) decided using the Bible that Earth was created on October 23, 4004 BC at approx 9 am GMT. Call me a cynic, call me an atheist if it makes you feel better, but I always have, and always will put my scientific faith in hundreds of the smartest individuals on earth and radiometric dating, before I take the word of one man and one book. As to acco40s question, I would gladly choose science, my grandmother, a Christian Scientist believed in the power of prayer, ignoring even the most conventional treatments, and almost died of cancer before we moved her into a "scientific" hospital, within a matter of weeks she was up and about, almost as good as new.

My bio teacher back in high school had a very simply way to handle this issue. We spent one day on creationist theories, primarily those related to the Old Testament. This included reading some scripture, as a scientific text, not as a piece of spiritual enlightenment. We followed this with a scientific study of evolutionism for a week or so, after all this was a biology class and not a theology class. On a more personal note I treat the bible as being more figurative than an actually historical record, and using such a view it is simple for creationism and evolutionism to coexist harmoniously.

This may be a little off, but why is grandma sewing the badges on, does the kid not have fingers? Perhaps he is quadriplegic? Maybe its me, but shouldnt the kid be sewing his own badges on? Its not that hard, with the exception of those already on my uniform, I sewed every badge onto my BSA and Venturing uniforms, alas, my mother did sew my cubbie patches on to the good old fashioned blues. Personally I recognize the importance of proper uniforming, the boys in my troop fear my pocketknife, which has removed many an improperly worn patch, however if your going to be picky about 1/8 in regards to where a patch is, then I would suggest a examination from a licensed therapist, perhaps you suffer from OCD.

Oh, so hate-filled wizard: What you fail to realize is that the BSA does not practice any form of religious discrimination, Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, believers in Native religions are all more than welcome, to my understanding agnostics are welcome as well, simple a belief in higher power than ones self. Neither does the BSA actively descriminate against homosexuals by my observations, instead the BSA uses a dont ask dont tell policy, attempting to remain as neutral as they can, For some reason you seem to have been corrupted by the left and believe in the new constitution, for your benefit I will quote a bit of it for you: ------ Passed by Congress September 25, 1789. Ratified December 15, 1791. AMENDMENT I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. AMENDMENT X The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ------ Now, lets examine the first amendment, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, excuse me for my ignorance, but for arguments sake, if the BSA is a religious organization as you claim, then it is protected by the First Amendment in both its membership and its meeting locations, on or off of federal, state, or local land. Even further since the BSA is not a religious organization, it is covered under the right of the people peaceably to assemble. Being that the most violent BSA activity I have witnesses was a highly energetic good spirited game of double ball, I would say that we fall under a peaceable assembly. If you examine the constitution you will notice that no where does it state anything near what the ignorant term the separation of church and state therefore the issue is not a matter to be resolved by the federal government but by the State or the citizens, per the Tenth Amendment.

i am planning on being there but have only heard bits and pieces about it

For an out of council camp, that isnt one of the ubercamps, check out Cowles, in Eastern Washington, almost Idaho, we have a COPE course, climbing tower, one outpost, building a second, and several other features, did i mention over 900 acres, and you get the spend the week with me, come on thats the best part right there http://www.inwc-bsa.org/camping/cowles.htm http://www.scoutcampsusa.com/cowles/cowles.html

Outfitters, going for a fifty mile award, oh my eyes, the pain, why do you people need a patch in order to get out in the woods, and then why do you need to pay someone to do all of the planning, mapping, and Im sure paddling if you asked, this isnt camping people, this is a vacation. Have we forgotten about this little thing called leadership, and letting the boys plan the trips. There ought not be any need for a guide.

Have you considered calling another local troop or OA chapter and seeing if they have an older (16) experienced boy who would be interested in helping you out, perhaps acting as SPL for three months until he can train one of your younger boys as his assistant afterwards acting in a supervisory position allowing the young boy to act as SPL but closely guiding him.

The owner and editor of the local paper is on the council committee in my neck of the woods and you only see reports in the paper on the positives of scouting maybe six times a year, in a county of 500k, (the paper is the local paper for I would guess about twice that). Not to be pessimistic, but dont hold up to much hope, just keep calling media sources before and after you have an event and perhaps something will happen

You all seem to think you cant take a Dutch oven on a hike, when did this happen? I backpack about five miles two or three times a year with my 14 cast iron oven. There are also cast aluminum ovens available at a relatively low cost that weigh little more than an average stew pot. On another note, why is a hike not traditional, do you think Jim Bridger or John Colter, or for that matter any member of the Corp of Discovery just drove up to camp dumped their duffle bag out of a covered wagon and started playing knot games and building mini-towers for kicks. No, they hiked, cannooed or crawled to their next destination, built a fire where they could and hoped not to die over night. Now this is traditional camping, now for those of you who doubt that I have done any of this, the past two fifty mile hikes I have gone on, I did with a light weight pack or a blanket roll. One blanket, one tarp, pound of rice, pound of flour, pound of corn meal, 2 pounds of jerky, pound of trail mix, a bit of coffee, fishing gear in a film canister, a dozen matches, a large knife, an old coffee pot, and a hundred feet of rope. Now I must admit that we werent completely authentic as that our blanket was fleece, and our clothing wasnt made of buckskin, but I think you get the point. As to having patrol activities, skills, etc. on trips, could you please explain to me why this cant happen on a hike? Lets say a 4 or 5 mile hike, that shouldnt take more than 2.5 hrs maybe 3 even with brand new scouts. So if you hit the trail head at 1000 hrs you should be in camp by 1300 hrs, tarps up, bags down and rings built by 1430 at the latest (all of which are important skills by the way) that gives you about 4 hours until dinner needs to be started, more than enough time to work on skills, scouts cook, another skill, then sleep, next morning they have several hours to work on skill presuming tear down takes an hour and hike takes the same amount of time. How is this trip less advantageous than tossing a tent, canvas or otherwise out of the back of a pickup and tying knots all day, at least with the hike you get out into real nature, get some exercise and get the experience for the boys of not having the ability to run to the car when they forgot something, it forces them to think, plan, and most importantly, lead.

"I thought the idea of the "Ubermensch" came from Neitzsche and not Dostoyevsky." You are correct, as far as I know. However Fyodor Dostoevsky first introduced me to the idea in Crime and Punishment when I read it 3 or 4 years ago, before I ever read any of Friedrich Nietzsches works. As you ought to note, I never claimed that Dostoevsky was the innovator of the idea.(This message has been edited by Sturgen)

This is the speech I have always used for flag ceremonies, although I do like and agree with the entirety of the first speech posted. I am your Flag I was born on June 14th, 1777. I am more than just cloth shaped into design. I am the refuge of the World's oppressed people. I am the silent sentinel of Freedom. I am the emblem of the greatest sovereign nation on earth. I am the inspiration for which American Patriots gave their lives and fortunes. I have led your sons into battle from Valley Forge to the bloody swamps of Vietnam. I walk in silence with each of your Honored Dead, to their final resting place beneath the silent White Crosses, row upon row. I have flown through Peace and War, Strife and Prosperity, and amidst it all I have been respected. My Red Stripes.... symbolize the blood spilled in defense of this glorious nation. My White Stripes.... signify the burning tears shed by Americans who lost their sons. My Blue Field.... is indicative of God's heaven under which I fly. My Stars.... clustered together, unify 50 states as one, for God and Country. "Old Glory" is my nickname, and proudly I wave on high. Honor me, respect me, defend me with your lives and fortunes. Never let my enemies tear down from my lofty position, lest I never return. Keep alight the fires of patriotism, strive earnestly for the spirit of democracy. Worship Eternal God and keep His Commandments, and I shall remain the bulwark of peace and freedom for all mankind. I am your Flag. Written By Marine MSgt.Percy Webb I would also suggest the following links for those of you that have forgotten about patriotism or for all those who dont understand the United States international policies: http://www.lyricscafe.com/w/worley_darryl/025.htm?lyricscafe=749d13ff4ae9e9af4cfe77bd07e2278e http://www.lyricscafe.com/k/keith_toby/080.html http://www.liddyshow.us/ http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile36.php

Yet again half of us out there are not in the scouting program and are not scouts because we dont do it Bob's way, why am I so shocked, blasted Leaders Manual, foiled again by Texas. Anyone want to join my new program, Badens Boys, its actually going to be based off of what our founder planned and not what a bunch of big wigs in Texas think will protect the self-esteem and self-image of the boys, and more importantly the parents.

The ends justify the means when you are capable of producing far better men using a flawed process then when the designed process is notorious for pumping out boys still dependent on mom and dad, regardless of rank. I must state however that I am a strong believer in the Ubermensch principal since I read Crime and Punishment and was introduced to the idea