Stoutwalker

Eamonn, Please ignore our peeing contest. The main thing is that the Youth get the guidance, support, and help they need to have fun, learn, and grow. You have the right idea. I know that I, for one, cna get lost in the minutia and details, most of which our charges could care less about. Go for it, do it, start a Ship, and deliver the promise, show them what being a Sea Scout means. I , for one, have faith in you. And, don't lose sight of what is important. The Youth. Pat "Stout" PS- If you are ever in Tennessee, feel fre to look me up, and we can both take a walk for a fine stout.

I must have some of the earlier Crew 697 knots. I felt the colors were just a bit off, and that the dimensions were off from Ofiicial Supply Division stuff. There used to be a group listed on the old Sea Scout site named 'Why Knot' and they seemed to have a full compliment of colors and knots, but sadly, I haven't been able to actually contact them. And, I agree, Knots like the Youth and Adult Religious awards, the DAM, and others not on a 'uniform' backing color, shouldn't be altered to match.

Thanks. I have a bunch now from Crew 697. Craig Murray's look very nice, too. Have you noticed any difference in quality between the two?

Do you care to share your two sources? I am always looking for knots on spruce green. (See, I didn't say it this time!)

I still wear my Universal Arrow, with Vigil pin attached. I even still have the 75th anniversary award Univeral Arrow (same ribbon, gold Turtle pierced by an arrow, with 1915 on the turtles shell) on one of my uniforms.

TP, leadership in Venturing is not laizze faire. It is placed in the hands of the youth. And, if the Crew/Ship really is there for the Youth, then they should be allowed to dictate what they wear, what adavncement scheme they wish to follow (Yep, they can choose not to use the traditional Sea Scouting advancement scheme), and what sort of program they have. I agree with you about the traditions, and that the Ship should wear the standard uniforms. BUT, even more than I agree with you, I believe that the the Sea Scouting/Venturing phase's needs, nor the youth's, would be served if we didn't allow them to make thier own choices, decisions, and lead for themselves. Sea Scouting, Venturing, should not be Boy Scouts beefed up. Forcing the traditional uniform on the Young Adults because thats what they've worn since 1912 doesn't serve the needs and wants of the youth. Allowing them to decide IF that's what they want DOES.

acco40 wrote: "One more thing - if the troop decides to wear the neckerchief, the troop needs to decide if it will wear it under the collar or over the collar (collar should be rolled under) and ALWAYS with the top button of the shirt unbuttoned. The whole troop should wear it the same way." YES! AMEN! THANK YOU! I, personally, prefer over the collar, in the metod described, and have NEVER worn it any other way (but, then again, I am not in a Unit currently, but a district volunteer).

On the subject of uniforming: Not to contradict, or disregard, what Trail Pounder has to say, because his suggestion is economical and still well within tradition, I would suggest that if you do organize a Sea Scout Ship, you have the Sea Scouts themselves vote and decide what uniform, if any, they desire. But, the Scouts should be equipped with the proper info to make a reasonable decision: pircing, appearance, expectation of durability, etc. After all, Sea Scouting/Venturing is supposed to be their chance to make their own decisions.

I am in a new council (well, new to me, that is) that doesn't have a strong Venturing program. I spoke with the DE of my District, and he said they haven't been able to excite local kids about it. I would like to help the council (my district in particular) to build the program here. It's a favorite program of mine, one I wish was around when I was a youth. Any ideas on how to get kids interested and excited about Venturing? Kids who aren't Scouts already, perhaps? Just out fishing for ideas!

emb021 said: "Also, the Eagle, AOL, and Hornaday knot can be obtained on green backgrounds." Did the BSA issue official knots on Venturing Green again? Or are you referring to non-BSA issue insignia? No that I will split hairs, I have a Scouters Trainign Award, James E. West Fellowship, and Eagle Scout knot on one of my Venture Shirts that are in Venture Green, but not anywhere near official issue. Just curious.

Eamonn: There are directions and proceedures for creating a 'Land Ship' for Ships that do not have a vessel. It can be done pretty simply with basic carpentry skills and ropework, or even just creative positioning of a meeting hall. I know, not the same, but it helps until the Ship can afford to purchase some means of aquatic conveyance. Check out the current Sea Scout manual (it may have the plans for the Land Ship), if not, the older editions definitely do contain them. Basically, you set the meeting place up in the outline of a ship, with ropes, chairs, benches, whatever. On Uniforms: There is also a Tan Uniform. The BSA was selling Sea Scout tabs for the pockets out of the Nat'l Catolog a while back. BUT, the Ship can designate whatever uniform they wish. I knew a Ship on Long Island that used a T-Shirt and Jeans as thier official Uniform, I tried to organize a Ship when I was a pro that was thinking about adopting a more'Yacht' like outfit, shorts and T-Shirt, with a historical 'Pirate/Privateer' unifrom for special functions. As has been pointed out already, you do not need to use the traditional Naval uniforms, although they do look very nice. And, you should get the Sea Scout Manual. It is (IMHO) one of the best publications the BSA has produced. It is CHOCK FULL of nautical info and tradition. I showed it to the curator of a Nautical Museum on Long Island, NY and he almost signed up to charter a ship on the spot (had it not been for the Supreme Court case, he would have!). Go for it, search a ship out, start a new one. It's a great program that I wish was available back home when I was a kid (Yes, I grew up on an Island that had NO Sea Scout ships. That number grew to 2 when I was an Adult).(This message has been edited by Stoutwalker)

Yes, it does seem you can become an honorary member of Clan McLaren, but that site (at least what I read) makes no mention if you are 'entitled' to wear the Tartan thereafter. But that the family reaches out to Woodbadgers is encouraging, and most likely profitable for their Clan society. And, hey, the 'uniform is the uniform' arguement is a big one. But nothign says you can't wear a kilt as part of a 'Class B' (although the Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any differing class of uniform), with a troop T-Shirt. Of course, I want to try to trade with someone from the U.K. or Ireland for a Scout kilt from their society.

"Dare I ask what ya'll wear under them?" Well, generally, I find it impolite to ask anyone about the state of thier undergarments, or lack thereof. Now, I know that it is usually the first question many folks ask me when I don my kilt in public, and it is usually females (of varying ages) who ask. The worst incident was at a wedding for a friend, and his grandmother actually lifted the front of my kilt to see. Her daughter had lifted the kilt of one of my groomsmen at my wedding a few months earlier. Depending on the situation, the people involved, and the location, my answer varies. I usually ask the curious party what they are wearing under their clothing, which generally embarrasses them more than them asking me. Around close friends, my answer tends to be a bit more colorful. I will say, if you must know, I prefer to be tradtitional.

Hey guys, Thanks for the warm welcome! Patrick

Hello all. I am new here. Currently I am a Roundtable Commissioner in eastern Tennessee. I the past, I have been a lot of stuff in this wonderful program. I am not going to bore anyone with the list. I believe wholeheartedly in the Boy Scout movement, and all the great things it can do in the lives of our youth. I joined the forums here to share ideas, get and give advice, and to make contact with Scouters around the country and the globe. So, hey. There. (FYI, the thread title is in fact a joke.)

Over the course of 11 years, I had the pleasure of working for three very different, and wonderful Boy Scout Summer Camps. Now, I know all of us here must have (at least) one tale we can share of something amazing, touching, inspiring, or just plain funny that we witnessed at Summer Camp. Here's mine: My last year on staff at my local council's camp I was the Assisant Camp Director/Shooting Sports Director, and I decided to propose to my girlfriend (now my wife). I called her father, asked his permission, and he sent her grandmothers ring to me (at camp, it stayed in the camp safe next to my shotgun ammo). Everyday I would open the safe, and sit and stare at the ring. I knew she would be coming to visit me on that Friday, so I began planning. The afternoon of the proposal, I ran all over camp, to each program area, and told the staff what I was going to do. I gave each area director instructions on what I needed the staff to do, and asked them to practice with them. When she showed up, ostensibly to givem ethe car so I could go away for the weekend. I asked her to stay for evening colors. She didn't want to, she had to get to the theatre she worked at for a show, she was tired from her day job, she was a bit miffed that I made her come all the way out to camp so I could abandon her for a weekend with buddies upsate, etc. I told her that I was performing the evening retreat ceremony, it would be the only time the summer I could do it, and I wanted her to be there. Still, she resisted. I BEGGED her to stay. Finally, she agreed. I had a CIT ready to escort and distract her, and keep her away from the rest of the staff. I met the Camp Staff behind the dining hall. We ran through the whole deal a couple of times. Then, I slid the ring onto my neckerchief, and I led the staff out to the flagpole. I asked for troop reports, and each SPL in turn reported that they were there. I called the Staff to attention, gave the cmmand 'Present Arms' and as planned, all 40 of us dropped to one knee, and asked her: "Erica, will you marry me?" The answer was yes. The staff jumped around us, for a huge group hug, and then they carried on with the flag lowering, and went into the dining hall for chow. My wife and I, on our way out of camp, went in and did a victory lap through the dining hall. One Scoutmaster at camp that week, came up to me after all was said and done, and admitted that I made him cry when I proposed to her. (And, I did not go upstate. It was all a clever ruse! But I did drop her off at her theatre, and I made it back to camp for the campfire, and then home to spend time with my new fiancee). That is my fondest memory of my years at Summer Camp.

Are kilts ok? Well, scoutldr is right, the uniform policy is pretty straight forward. What is and what is not acceptable is clearly defined, and can be found in the uniform and insignia control guide. Now, in reality, we all know that units do what they will do. The uniform headgear for the Boy Scout phase is clearly defined, Campaign Hat, Ball Cap, or the Expedition hat. But we still see units with their own unique headgear, ranging from military 'boonie' caps to berets to the old school garrison caps. I've seen unit unique epaulet loops, units that all wear the same shorts, but nothing close to the BSA issue shorts. And, in five different councils in 24 years, as a Scout, volunteer and professional, I've never seen nor heard of a local council do anything about any standard mis-use/alteration of a unit's unform. The closest was when I was a professional, and my District Comissioner asked our Scout Executive if his unit could make up old style OD garrison caps with red piping, and the old type BSA har patch with his unit numbers instead of BSA. The SE basically said that he could not authorize that, but that it really wasn't a huge issue, and if he did it, no one would care. Not his exact words, but the basic gist of what he had said. Now, kilts are a HUGE leap from hats. Just remember, the average BSA Executive is fairly conservative, and *MAY* get the wrong impression, or just be downright ignorant. I know, I was one. And I cannot imagine any of the SE's or even most of the DE's I worked with to be 'understanding' had I chosen to wear a kilt as a volunteer (and, of course, as a professional, wearing anything but the official uniform, when such is the chosen attire, is frowned upon). And I am sure you would hate to be the first unit to have this be an issue for them. Now, as a regular kilt wearer myself, nothing is more comfortable than a good kilt. I actually have an Olive kilt that is a perfect match for the standard BSA pant/short color (which I really want to spring on my new council, maybe for St. Patricks Day). But, if you are asking if it is strictly 'by the book' OK, the answer clearly is no. If you are asking if anyone thinks it's wrong or a bad idea, personally, on campouts, at special functions, whatever, if your Chartered Org is OK with it, go ahead, enjoy. When I was a Camp Director (and even a regular staffer) back in the NER, I wore one at camp during regular program hours, and it was independant of the camps weekly theme (which may have been cops and robbers or western). It really looks sharp with the Explorer/Venture green shirt. And, committeeman, check out www.usakilts.com as well (if you haven't already). Their garments are quite nice, tho I didn't see MacLaren listed, they may be able to help you out too. Good luck. And, remember, the Kilt is a man's garment. If anyone decides to call that into question, politely re-educate them. Actually, committeeman, I may be interested in one, possibly two of them, depending ont he timeframe of when you order them. My father is a Bison (AKA Buffalo), and he was kind of dissapointed that I didn't choose the MacLaren plaid for my wedding kilts (I went with all black, it was nice).(This message has been edited by Stoutwalker)