sst3rd

As has been discussed before, the Scoutmaster's Approval is the last requirement to be on the OA ballot for the OA Election. What exactly is Scoutmaster's Approval? Beats me, and I've been doing this for over 33 years as a Scoutmaster. One additional thing I do, is have a Scoutmaster's Conference with each possible nominee before the election. I ask for "their" approval to list their names on the OA ballot for consideration. Once in a while, a Scout declines. Just like the Scoutmaster's Approval, he will base his decision on his knowledge and experiences from Scouting. We're here to support the Scouts on their trails through Scouting. It's about choices. It's not really that difficult to understand.

Here's another way: 1) Have an out of control Committeeman hold unofficial meetings with his clique before every meeting out in the parking lot (he is the former Webolos leader and has been with the Troop for a year). 2) Have same Committeeman spread rumors about Scoutmaster to cause problems. 3) Have same Committeeman stir things up at each meeting and create an alliance with the SPL. 4) After a year, have this same Committee member harrass the COR in having a meeting to roast the SM (me). 5) This Committeeman was acting as an ASM. If fact, I recruited him and he wanted to be a ASM, so I don't know what happened. He got basic training. 6) Have that Committeeman call, organize, and lead a public meeting out in the parking lot in front of the Scouts (pre-opening activity). The COR was there, but thought it was just an informal get together (I've tried for years, but our Committee does NOT meet once a month. They just kind of get things done as best as they can, when they can). 7) When I tried to explain to the COR that this was obviously a "roast" of the Scoutmaster with just folks that this Committeeman invited, the COR felt that I was being overly dramatic. 8) When I tried to explained to the COR that this meeting should have been set up on a non-meeting night, he said that the meeting night was when everybody could get together. 9) When I said that this meeting needed to be private and held in a room over at the church (we use their facitlies), he thought out in the parking lot was fine. 10) Before the "roast" began, I had already resigned. I allowed each adult leader to say what was on their mine, realizing that none of them have ever approached me about their concerns before. I decided not to defend myself, although I could have explained each and every point brought up per BSA policy. Conclusion: When this Committee member felt that everyone had had their say (yes, he led this meeting, not the COR), this particular Committee member announced that the special roast, I mean meeting, was over with, and everyone left but the COR and I. The Troop meeting had been a disaster because all of the adult leaders were with us, and not where they were supposed be. I was devastated, but was also laughing at the same time. The word that came to mind about this situation, was "ungrateful." I looked at the COR and asked him what he thought had just happened. He was silent. I gave him my resignation affective at the end of the meeting, left him standing in the parking lot, went in to the meeting to appropriately finish it, and wrapped up over 33 years as a Scoutmaster. So, I guess in a special way, this is another way of "how to fire a Scoutmaster." sst3rd

Ron, Cooper is in our Troop's prayers. Tell him there's a lot of folks that care. sst3rd

In short, "yes" the Order of the Arrow is worth it. To bring to light the "Scoutmaster's Approval" BEFORE the OA Election; our Troop had no Scouts ready to be nominated for the Troop to vote on to be a candidate for the OA this year. This is rare, but it happens. Scoutmasters (and anyone else for that matter) cannot remove a Scout AFTER he has been elected as a candidate. Scoutmasters must approve or disapprove a Scout BEFORE the election. Scoutmasters have been a bit lax with this requirement, and need to take it far more seriously then they have in the past. Sometimes Scoutmasters, you have to be the bad guy and not allow every name to be nominated. Use this requirement "wisely." sst3rd

Erniepyle, Your youth election obviously is no longer valid. You will have to seek membership as an adult. To do that, you have to be a registered adult Scout leader in a Boy Scout "Troop." I will be corrected of course, but being an adult leader in a Pack won't work. You can also be a District or Council adult member as well. I'm not sure about Venture Crew adult leaders. Anyway, the deal is that your fellow adult leaders can "select" you as an adult candidate, with approval form the Lodge. But you can only select one adult per Troop per year (bigger troops can select two, etc..), if there was an associated youth OA Election. No youth election due to no qualified Scouts, no adult selection that year. I'm sure others will expand on what I've said. I'm glad you still have Scouting in your heart. sst3rd

Boy Scouts 1975

Eamonn, I've always hated labels. We are who we are, and have opinions based upon our knowledge and experiences. I personally would like Scouts (BSA) to be male only. I don't even like the Venture program for girls aged 14 and above. Hey, it's just the way I feel. I think the BSA works as is, although continued "tweaking" here and there, are always welcome. Girls have their organizations. Go there. For the first time, our summer camp experience was a bit off. The water front Staff had for the first time several females. I'm not sure what the age requirements are, but they appeared to be 17 or 18. Since we didn't have many Scouts down at the water front program area, I wasn't directly knowledgable. My info came from the daily morning leaders meetings. Wednesday, it was mentioned by several leaders that the ladies were wearing far to revealing swim suits, and the male water front director was entirely too "friendly" with them in front of the Scouts. It was corrected, but this situation had become a big deal throughout camp, and our Troop. This camp has a strong and consistant summer camp program. We attend (we're from out of their council) every year, as their programs are fantastic. I know that the problem is finding qualified and enthusiastic Staff, and that the camps (all over) have had to expand their "pool" of applicants. It is what it is. I'll support the program to the best of the betterment of our Troop and Scouts. Our Troop is doing very well, and as the SM, I train and support our youth leaders (although I do much more than that). If BSA goes co-ed, I'll quit. I don't need to defend my position, it's just the way I am. I am neither right or wrong. All will go forward with or without me. Eamonn, I have for years always enjoyed your thoughts, stories, and muses. I continue to learn from all who post here. sst3rd

VA-SCOUTER, Well, it's been awhile. How did your Troop's summer camp trip go this year? We've attended Blue Ridge camps for years. We love it up there. Has anyone been through the canoeing program at Blue Ridge, I believe it's called the Voyaguer Adventure. We want to go next year, but I want to know more details before we make a final committment. Anyone????? Thanks all, sst3rd

Scoutmasters must only approve the most outstanding Scouts for an OA Election. I also brief our OA candidates in understanding that some Scouts will not take the Ordeal program seriously, and that I and all of our Troop's OA members expect their highest efforts. We encourage our OA candidates to take individual pride in how they participate in the Ordeal program. On My Honor.......... sst3rd

As a long time Scoutmaster, it's been hard to get the "popularity' factor out of OA Elections completely. Our Scouts have elected Scouts that were not popular. They were just excellent Scouts. Sometimes we don't give them enough credit. We always have the Chapter Election Team execute the Election. This brings new faces saying the same thing that the SM has been saying about the OA's purpose. And, having the Chapter Election Team do the Election is the correct method anyway. I've heard of some Troops getting a hold of the election forms somehow (connections......) and doing their own elections, but our Chapter Election Committee will not sign off on them, and the Lodge will not recognize the Election if the Chapter Election Committee isn't performing the elections. Got a few "MEGA" Troops unhappy. We have to realize however, that the Scout's view the "popularity" factor as very important, because that's how they rate each other at this time of their lives. For the first time in years, we may not have an election this year because of the unavailability of qualified candidates. We have one possible candidate, but he's young, and just elected a Patrol Leader. His older brother doesn't think he's ready, and as the current Scoutmaster (Scoutmaster's Approval requirement), I tend to agree. I'll not allow the nomination of one Scout, just to have an election. We will wait until next year. FireKat, I'm sorry your son has experienced this. It's wrong. The Scoutmaster is the gatekeeper of the OA in the Troop. He/she should be more aware of the purpose of the OA, and how to use the OA in relation to the Troop program. sst3rd

Our Troop will be camping at McMillan's Woods Youth camping area and visiting Gettysburg sites. Can anyone tell me about camping at McMillan Wood's? Also, we plan on doing some or all of the BSA York-Adams Historical Trail programs. This includes the Billy Yank and Johnny Reb trails. I noticed that bikes are allowed at the Gettysburg Historical Park. Can bikes be used to accomplish these trails as well as the others? Maybe most of the trails? Can bikes be used around the Visitor's center and anywhere else for that matter. We can obviously walk these programs, as we've done this before a few years ago. But because it's so hot, I'm trying to make things more fun and enjoyable. Thanks to all who can offer any information. sst3rd

gwd-scouter, After a 5 month struggle with our new SPL, I had to release him and his ASPL's. His 6 month term started January 1, and he was trained over the Christmas holidays with his ASPL's (he chose them). I also had great expectations. I trained, encouraged, advised, supported, trained more, and had many Scoutmaster Conferences. Goals were set. All of our adult leadership supported this new Staff. But our SPL was more worried about remaining popular at school and Scouts. He yelled, pushed, demanded, bullied, and intimidated his way as SPL. He was not effective. I constantly counseled him. He didn't change. This situation also came to a head, when we were camping on a US Coast Guard base. We brought bikes to let the Scouts explore all over the base. Of course, there were rules to follow. Most importantly, we were asked to stay off of the sidewalks as they were for pedestrians ONLY. Our SPL took it upon himself to have lots of fun on the sidewalks anyway. His ASPL's were the first to tell me what he was doing. When confronted, he denied it, and then openly screamed how his ASPL's had "ratted", "tattletaled", and "squealed" on him. The "squealing" issue has become a big thing in our Troop. I've tried to explain that when rules are broken that can hurt someone or get the Troop thrown out of a campsite (and never allowed back), it's not squealing. This was basically in front of the whole Troop at our campsite. So, I cooled everyone down, grounded the SPL from further bike rides, sent the other Scouts out riding their bikes, and had an adult leaders meeting. That Saturday night after the campfire, Myself (the SM), our number one ASM, and the Staff, had a meeting. Once again I reviewed our concerns and how they were not being met, and released them from their duties and responsiblities. We then had individual meetings with all three, to encourage their continued Scouting, and discuss their options in the Troop. All three (if they chose to continue in the Troop, as the former SPL stated that he would quit as soon as he got home) were assigned to our Venture Patrol. Other than this big incident, it really had been a great trip. The Patrols weren't really aware of the whole situation. We haven't had our first meeting after the trip, as we meet on Mondays and don't meet on Memorial Day. But things have been resolved. We have a new Staff, and have already started training. We have great trips and events planned (by the PLC at the Annual Planning Conference each August), and they will proceed. Onward. Hang in there gwd-scouter. Your challenges sound like our challenges. Be consistant in your execution of the Scouting program, plan a great program, and those Scouts that want it (and there are many really), will be there. I've finally realized that the word "committment" is not in a teenager's vocabulary. sst3rd

Well said.

To All, The process of "phone trees" has come up often here, and is a process that's fairly old and successful. However, I've realized that a message "sent", doesn't equal to a message "received." I guess this can include newsletters, notices, e-mails, as well as phone calls. When I ask about the success of info being sent out using a phone tree, I get lots of concerns. The Patrol Leader calls a Scout in his patrol, and he's not home. Does he leave a message with a family member and assume that he has accomplished his mission? What if no one answers, but he leaves a message? Has he completed the task? Or should the requirement of the phone tree be that he must make personal contact with each Scout for the message to have been successfully received? What if no one answers the phone, and it just rings and rings and rings. Can the PL say that he tried, and consider the task complete? This "phone tree" can be very time consuming, even if it's the adult leaders needing to pass on new information. sst3rd

Eagle732, Looks like you're off to a great start with the youth and its leadership. But don't forget about your Assistant Scoutmasters and the Troop Committee. As your program grows (and the membership as well), you will need to have the adults to support the Troop's growing program. Maybe you have all of these positions in place and trained, but just in case, make the Committee a high priority as well. Recruit, train, and encourage their performance. I know that sounds like a Scoutmaster and his youth leaders, but I have found that over the years, you MUST have the Committee foundation in place and working, to bring the program opportunities to the Scouts. It's nothing worse then having the Scouts excited about an upcoming camping trip or event, and the Scoutmaster has to cancel it at the meeting before the event due to the lack of transportation. You the Scoutmaster cannot take on all of this by yourself, so as you are reprograming the Troop, make the adult leadership a big priority. My experience has been up and down. We are riding a big increase in our membership, but I cannot grow our Committee with dedicated adults to support this increase. I just had to cancel a December Lock-In event that is extremely popular (and planned by the Scouts every December), because we didn't have the adult support. As Scoutmaster, you just can't do it all. Steady as she goes, and good Scouting, sst3rd

SWScouter, Having any Ordeal adult member lead the way is a good start. Although in theory, the youth position of OA Representative should be leading the way, I find that position seldom used if at all. So, I always give the OA responsibility right back to the Scoutmaster. Usually they are in the OA. They are or should be current on OA info. They can get an OA Rep position filled and active. If not, the SM should be the one reminding those Scouts that are Ordeal, to seal their membership in taking the Brotherhood program. In the many years that I've been involved as a SM and OA member, our Ordeal members have been coming to me wanting to know when they can go back and earn their Brotherhood. We have a great Lodge and Chapter, so there are plenty of programs going on. Our Scouts want to be involved. Go Nawakwa 3. sst3rd

Chuck, Get a grip. They get to discuss, and you can't tell them otherwise. Learn something. sst3rd

Loki, Take as is, or find another Troop. They won't change. Talk with your son and see how he feels about this type of modified not BSA program. sst3rd

I've done the medical checks for our Ordeals (we now have changed the name to "Service Weekends" so as not to scare anybody off) for years. Our lodge makes sure our candidates have everything they need for a successful weekend. Period. Imagine the look on my face when I saw that an adult candidate had on his medical form that he was a heart transplant patient. All I could say was "do you have your medication with you"? He smiled and said "Yes." Whew.................

Being involved as a Scoutmaster for over 35 years, if it wasn''t for the moms stepping up, our Troop wouldn''t be as successful as we are today. Common sense tells me that the Scoutmaster gets to recruit his Assistants. They have to work as a team, you know. I know the Charter Organizational Representative has to sign off applications, but I didn''t know the Committee got to run these folks through an "approval process." If I was asked to be a Scoutmaster and couldn''t recruit the folks that I want as Assistants, I wouldn''t accept the Scoutmaster position. This Troop''s Committee sounds like it hasn''t had training yet, and is on a power trip. I''d run to another Troop fast, and take as many Scouts with you. I see "red flags" everywhere. sst3rd

Scoutmom2, I'm sure you'll get more detailed responses, but in short, ASM's and Committee positions are two completely different positions within Scouting, with two completely different sets of responsibilities. Committees should never have to "vote" on anything. Each Committee position has a set of responsibilities, thus one doesn't have anything to do with the other. The hold Committee should be supporting each other in those goals. There's documentation all over the place to prove what I've just said. So, there's more to this story I'm sure. I hope cooler heads provail. Everyone should be supporting the Scouts and "their" program. sst3rd

jambo, You keep throwing around the fact that you are sooooooooooo experienced. You bash the current BSA program. Fine. This forum has quite a few experienced leaders who run the current program and its working. There's flexibility everywhere, and you are only limited by your imagination and you Troop's membership. Sorry that you're "stuck" trashing the program. You're right. I'm reading, but I'm not listening. Too much boy-led Scouting to do. That's where my time goes. sst3rd

Our Eagle Boards are made up of the same folks that the Scout sees throughout his Scout trail, mainly Committee folks. Sure, every Board on all levels are a mixture of a large group of dedicated Scouters from our Troop, with an addition of a council Eagle Representative. This Eagle Representative does not run this Eagle Board, but represents the Council and is a resource. Our Eagle Boards are led, as all others, by a Committee member. sst3rd

Cross, You're working this one hard. Moxie's correct. No matter when and how often your Lodge has Ordeal Weekends (we have one in September, March, and June), the candidate has one year to complete his Ordeal program after the election. I kept up with your other thread of course. Your son's committments are understandable, but in my opinion, not fitting for an extention. No, you can't just pay OA dues and have your elligibility extended. The Ordeal program is where you become a member. You can't pay dues for something you don't yet belong to. That's really bad info from that other SM. Looks like your son will need to be re-elected in December. Maybe he just needs to not worry about the OA. He appears to already be extremely busy. sst3rd

Bill, Really, not a tough call for me based on what you've stated. For all of the negative qualities that you have listed, do NOT approve this candidate. I realize that you've stated he is your only candidate at this time, and if he's not approved, your Troop will not have an OA Election this year. Standards for the OA should be high. Make the announcement that there will be no OA Election this year because there are no qualified candidates for the Troop to vote for. Maybe this will start a Troop discussion where you can answer questions from the Scouts about the OA. Our Troop's Election is this Monday. I've approved three candidates that are extremely committed to Scouting, but are very different in their personalities and character. They represent Scouting at its best. Having made the announcement of candidates for the Election at the past meeting, I had several Scouts come up to me and ask me point blank why they were not nominated. I had three quick but complete Scoutmaster Conferences on the spot. I made my points. To answer your question, no, they can't vote against him, they just don't vote for him. Again, since there are currently no qualified candidates, there should be no OA Election this year. Be strong and consistent. sst3rd