sst3rd

OGE, I too have felt out of the loop due to the incredibly intense debates on these threads. I've seen where these discussions have had but little relevance to the Troop program I have worked with for years. I will say that Bob White has provided specifics that counter some folk's (and that includes me) traditional Scouting methods. For that, I'm grateful. I've gotten alot out of this forum, and will continue to read, review, and ocassionally respond. The Troop program is where the action is, and using the Patrol method creates the very foundation of citizenship and its rights and responsibilities. As to these combative discussions, and who is more "inside" then "outside," the program, seems to simply feed egos more than helping grow the Scouting program. Put your energy and time where it needs to go, the Scout program.

Dues have tradionally been a Troop function. Dues were to be collected weekly to cover the Annual Troop budget that included usually: recharter fees, insurance, Boy's Life subscriptions, and advancement awards. Our Troop currently charges $5.00 a month, collected sometime during the month, by the Patrol's Scribe, and then turned over to the Troop Scribe to record with the Treasurer Committee person. All other Troop/patrol activities are paid by the Scouts on an event by event basis. The Scouts earn their own money at home, and/or through Troop fund raising activities. Again, Troop dues are not something set by the PLC. The Committee has to set a budget. That budget is not set by the PLC. Dues are a necessary evil, or as you have stated, some Troops have gone to an annual fee that usually is paid by the parent(s). Responsibility for monthly dues can easier be given to the Scouts.

Our District offers a combination Cub Scout and Boy Scout Leader Training in the fall and spring. Den Chief Training offered at the same time. Council offers Woodbadge every other year in the fall (our Council alternates Woodbadge with an adjacent Council). Troop leader training has never been offer at meetings, Pack leader training has. Philmont Training is available to all who have the money, time, and can qualify. All of these other offshoot training programs may be covered by what I refer to as Troop and Pack Leader Training. Our Council is current in it's needs to offer the appropriate training for it's leaders.

Our Patrols are small enough, that everybody cooks, thus everybody cleans up. If the cook has to clean up their own mess, they tend to not make such a mess. The SPL or ASPL holds a quick but complete inspection after every meal. Any problems go to the PL and his Patrol, and they must do it right. They fall behind the PLC planned campout schedule at their own risk. We got out of Troop owned tents long ago. We don't have the Scout or Scouter personel to supervise this. There were so many problems with keeping track of the damage and who was responsible, etc.. The Scouts have their own tents and take care of them a lot better (having to answer to their parents when damage is done). There are only two Scouts allowed per tent anyway, no matter how big the tent is (in reference to base style camping). We do teach the proper care of tents of course. Peer pressure does work here, but since there is a Troop trip schedule to follow, again planned by the PLC, the PL gets breakfast going, wrapped up and inspected. At the very least, all Scouts must be up and prepared for the mornings activities. For those Scouts who missed breakfast, it's a long time til lunch (and we watch for private stashes of snacks). We've never had a problem with the whole Patrol getting to the first activities.

Mommascout, Please take no offense. I was writing my response when I happened to look up and saw the title of this thread. I understand how topics can change from their original focus. As our Troop struggles, I tend to review my responsibilities within our Scouting program. Am I doing my best ??? Sometimes I have to reaffirm this through discussions with our Troop's other adult leaders. We're all doing our best. Our program will move forward. We have to be patient. That's the hard part.

The prior postings have verified the "range" of Troop programs that exist around the country. I happen to agree with everything being said. I think the combination of activities for a specific Troop is dictated by its size, youth leadership, adult leadership, and the experience and training levels. Unfortunately for the my Troop (I'm the SM), we're getting smaller and smaller. Our Pack hasn't graduated any Webolos in three years (issues being worked appropriately), so I'm a bit jeolous hearing of all of the Webolos graduating into the Troops every spring, and all of the discussion of creating new Patrols or adding these new Scouts to existing Patrols. We've got a great program planned by our youth leaders at the annual planning meeting this past August. We encourage and support Patrol activities, but most occur on Troop trips. All of our Scouts, both young and old, have little time for additional Scouting functions. It's tough getting the Scouts to particitpate in their own planned trips. The few younger Scouts we have, still have their parents guide their activities more directly than the older Scouts. Sports always comes first, then church youth activities (if active in church), and then FINALLY, Scouting, if the parents don't have anything for the young man to do during the weekend. I'm sorry if I sound a bit down. I just came from our Troop meeting, and most of our Scouts have come up with excuses for not coming on this weekend's Troop trip. They planned it !!! The adult and youth Staff have a great mini Camporee program lined up, based on what the Scouts wanted. This takes all of the wind out of our sails, and I can tell all of our Scouts are down, because we're not getting any new faces in the Troop. We'll keep plugging away, and I'll keep having a positive attitude. We've done a variety of recruitment programs, and will continue to do so. We'll come out the other end stronger than ever once our efforts start to bear fruit. I still feel a little weird though, posting under the "subject" of "Lousy Scoutmaster." Keep those ideas flowing...........

Our Troop and church sponsor have a 36 year relationship. What sticks out for us, is having an involved COR. Currently, our COR is a deacon, former Cubmaster, and Webolos leader. He's trained and truly understands both the Pack and Troop programs. He is the eyes and ears of the Pack and Troop in our relationship with the church. We've done a variety of projects for the church over the years, so the church members have seen us in action. Another point to bring up, is to coordinate dates of Troop campouts with the youth minister to avoid conflicts. Unfortunately, our church started the Awanas programs several years ago. It is assumed that if you attend this church, your children gets involved with Awanas. It makes it much harder to promote the Scouting programs when the kids are already involved in a very busy program. This makes the Troop and Pack programs mainly community based. Although we'll continue to recruit from the church, we'll do so in a very professional manner. I've had to defuse a couple of situations where the young man wanted to check out the Troop program, but the parent said that one "group" was enough. Scouting will always be an option at this church. We've got a lot of patience. The reason the Troop is trying to recruit from the church, is that our Pack is poorly led (issues are being worked) and organized, and the Troop hasn't received a Webolos graduate for three years. Don't want to push the church too hard.

None.

All through these boards I've read of Packs and/or the parents graduating their Webolos to Troops and how they choose the Troops to which they go to. In our Council, most Troops have a brother Pack that has the same sponsor. I also respect the flexibility discussed as to when to graduate these Webolos Scouts to their Troop. My problem is (I'm the SM), that our Pack is coming upon the third year in a row, of not graduating any Webolos Scouts to our Troop. The Troop has always worked closely with its Pack over the last 25 years. Providing Den Chiefs and joint camping trips have long been a tradition. The Pack has been led by a Den Leader (bogus Cubmaster) whose two sons came through the Pack and Troop program. She decided to stay with the Pack. Unfortunately, her job causes her to be consistently late to meetings, if she's able to show up at all. Parents wait awhile, but then leave. I know all of this, because I'm usually there at the Scout building doing Troop work. Every fall, she winds up reorganizing the Pack when the Night For Scouting Recruitment program happens at the Pack's assigned school. I've encouraged on site training (I arranged the District Trainer to come by) for the other adults, but this leader never follows through. She is trained, but she evidently likes things the way they are, and doesn't care that she's helping the Troop die. This is the Pack leader whose son I had to "release" from the Troop a year ago this past October for outragious behavior problems. Procedures and processes have been used, but the CC and I finally decided to go to our COR. Over several months he visited the Pack meetings and verified everything that I was telling him. He felt, however, that this lady was trying and was dedicated to the Pack. I countered with the fact that the bottom line was that the Pack program was inconsistent and hasn't provided the Troop with a single Webolos graduate for three years. The CC and I wanted the COR to review her commitment to the Pack and Scouting. Why was she still involved? When are the other leaders going to be trained? Is she going to be at the meetings and on time? If not, what's her Plan B? You get the picture. Our Troop has been working all sorts of recruitment programs, and will continue to do so, but we've had little success. Our Scouts are older, and the Troop is small. We have a great program, but the Scouts age out. The remaining Scouts are getting discouraged by the Troop's size. The CC and I feel that our next appropriate step is to officially inform the District Executive of our situation, and let them do their thing. Feelings will be hurt, because I know the Den Leader and COR personally. The COR is a past Cub Leader and his son earned his Eagle with us, and is currently an ASM with us. I'm open to all ideas. We have little to lose. Thanks as always,,,,, sst3rd

I understand about the requirement appearing very clear and not flexible, but yes, pass him. He's not only showing improvement overall, but he's showing you his best effort, and that means he wants it. He's also growing in character, and that's great. If you hold each Scout to their best, you're not holding them to different standards. Every Scout is different. sst3rd

Sctmom, Glad you had a great trip. Reading these boards can wear on you. I tend to get frustrated at all of the diversified opinions and how they are proven and/or justified. The rhetoric is incredible. Just getting away from all of this for a few days certainly can put all of this in perspective. Active Scouters on this board have presented themselves very passionately, but views and opinions haven't and won't change. I expected that (as on other boards). I have, however, picked up some great ideas, thoughts, verifications, and clarifications as to the real reason most of us are here, and that's Scouting. To all, thanks... sst3rd

If the Scoutmaster's Conference requirement was not signed off by the Scoutmaster, the advancement process stops there. The Board of Review has NO authority to advance the Scout without it. The Board cannot meet without this signature. If they did (and the Scout passed), the rank is VOID !!!! I'm a Scoutmaster with years of experience and the training to back this up. The CC in your example may or may not have had the training, but does not change the advancement procedure prescribed by the Boy Scouts of America. No Scoutmaster's Conference, no Board of Review. There MUST be a signature from the Scoutmaster in the Scout's book to validate the Conference to proceed to the Board. These requirements are clear and NOT flexible in any way. sst3rd

Ed, That's a good combination. Sounds logical. We have our Scouts bring their uniforms to the meetings. Their planned pre opening activities are usually outdoor games, so we don't want them to mess up their uniforms. When they come in the Scout building, they change to their uniforms for the rest of the meeting (this arrangement was created by the Scouts years ago). We've been trying to create our own Troop T-shirts, is that what you've got? How did you create the design? Ideas?? sst3rd

Thanks to all for your input. I will be meeting with our CC with all of this acquired information. She will be talking with the young man, as he does not wish to have me (SM) involved. He became inactive in Troop functions mainly because of his girlfriend and his ability to drive a car (normal stuff, no problems there). But, he kept making commitments to the Troop and Scouts, and then bailing. Other than that, this young man and I have had a great Scouting relationship, and he will always be one of my Eagles. His Mom and I have the strained relationship. We will take the high road, and if I have to bow out, I will do so, but I really don't want to see our Troop in the middle of this. His Mom runs the Pack, and not very well. For years I've helped her because I knew that we should be getting new Scouts from the Pack. It isn't working (four years), so our COR is involved, and the Council is aware. The Troop Scouters are following all procedures, and we've long since been working alternative recruiting programs with limited success. The Troop will survive, and the Pack will get its act together (the COR will not give her a choice). The Troop had simply got tired of waiting for the Pack to have a successfull program, and our Scouts want and need younger Scouts to teach. This problem didn't occur over night, and it will not be corrected over night. We're just ready to get the process going NOW !!! We'll probably simply give the Eagle Award package to him, and let the family take it from there. I will still be open for your comments, and again, many thanks to all. sst3rd

Ed, How many of your Scouts consistantly wear their uniform (not half a uniform) to meetings and functions like Scout Sunday? Is this half a uniform a Troop policy? Our Troop wears the uniform, and no partials. I can't see a baseball player in half a uniform. I can't see a football player in half a uniform. I can't see a police officer in half a uniform. Well, you get the idea.I respect your Troop's decision, I just don't agree with it. The Troop's program is "top" priority, but the full, complete, uniform is part of that program. Do you not require a uniform (complete) at you Courts of Honor? How can half a uniform be "dressed properly?" sst3rd

I promised our Committee Chairperson I would post this problem to get ideas. I have a feeling though, that I won't like the advise. Here goes. A year and a half a go (August of 2000), one of our Scouts earned his Eagle. He also turned 18 that month. During his last year of Scouting, he became very inactive, and made committments to the Troop (the Scouts loved him, a natural leader) that he didn't keep. However, our CC and I (SM) guided this Scout through his Eagle process, and per the requirements, he earned his Eagle. That August, he went away to college, only to come home the following January, and is now attending college near his home. Here's the problem. The Troop (CC) received his Eagle package (our Council has a benefactor that purchases all Eagle Awards for the Scouts)August of 2000, and we've had it ever since. The Scout has never requested an Eagle Ceremony, and he has never been back to the Troop since he moved back home over a year ago. Our Troop usually plans the presentation with the Eagle Scout and his family. Our CC called the young man several times over the year and a half, and we've talked to his Mom at Cub Scout meetings (she runs the Pack even though her two sons have grow up), but the young man never has returned our phone calls. As of the fall of 2001, we dropped it. You guessed it, last week, the young man asked his mom to call our CC, to call him back to set up his Eagle Ceremony. Since this young man did not follow through to set up his Ceremony, I feel it's all a moot point. The Troop has long since moved on. Although I had a great relationship with this Scout over the years, I was told that if there was an Eagle Ceremony, he didn't want me to present him with his Eagle. Yes, this hurts, but is this a good time to bring up the fact that I had to dismiss his younger brother from the Troop for continuous outragious disipline problems. Or maybe the fact that this young man's mother (who still runs the Pack) has to reorganize the Pack ever fall, and hasn't provided any graduating Webolos for the Troop in four years (we are working these issues through appropriate channels). I went to school with this mom, and have known her for years, and have supported the Pack (and provided Den Chiefs) beyond what a SM needs to do, but I realize that's where the Troop's growth comes from (the Troop is dieing, but that's another story). Any thoughts will be graciously accepted and sent to our Troop Committee. Thanks, sst3rd.

Answers: 1. As odd as it may sound, they always start on time. Also, it's the only place to get "current" information about District activities and functions. 2. Woodbadge presentations. This is a good place for the presentation, but they are so long and push the agenda back until it's so late. 3. Again, as a SM, our RT provides current information, answers to relevant questions, and the opportunity to provide the District direct and immediate feedback to District programs (good as well as not so good). 4. Their teamwork. 5. Our RT Staff has a great reputation. Staff members rotate in and out and always have fresh ideas pertaining to the monthly theme, so I can't think of anything that needs changing (a few years ago, I couldn't say all of these positive things). 6. No room for more. Our RT's are packed full of ideas and demonstrations. 7. Currently it's about 10 miles, but the location is central to our District. 8. Approximately 7 out of the scheduled 11 per year. 9. Since I'm currently taking night classes, usually our Troop has a representative. Our RT's are good enough to make sure our Troop is represented. It's been awhile since our Roundtables were not worth attending. Where our District has just started having a serious problem, is staffing our Camporee Committee. Our Camporees (fall and spring)used to be incredible, but the old Staff was run off several years ago by a new group consisting of recent Woodbadge and Basic Training graduates. These new folks have since found out the effort it takes to create and execute a Camporee program, so most of them have bailed out. Last fall's Camporee was poorly planned and the location and theme were changed at the last second, and it turned into a work weekend out at our Council's camp under the disguise of a "Paul Bunyun" weekend. Several Troops we've worked with, went somewhere else (as we did). This spring's Camporee also can't get a Staff together, so it's defaulting to a District Staff person who had no idea it was being given to him. The original dates have been changed to provide time to plan, but he can't get anybody to help him. Most Troops have already planned their camping trip dates for the year, and don't want to make changes, so they won't be attending this Camporee, but taking the dates and going somewhere else (sound familiar ????). Good questions,,,,, sst3rd

As stated on the other thread but wishing to add to...... You're in uniform or you are not in uniform. Our Troop does the uniform bank, etc.. A reasonable time is given for a new Scout (and his parent) to assemble a uniform and at no time is allowed to wear a partial uniform (we've heard all of the excuses about the pants being dirty, etc.). We hold BOR's and SM Conferences all year, and not just prior to rank advancement. A uniform will always be required for the BOR. Bob, your desire to state rules and procedures and where there is simply no room for interpretation, is interesting, and I guess you think you're providing a service. Enjoy, but there is room for interpretation, and there are many gray areas in the Scouting program. Every unit is different, and approaches the program with the resources it has. Training and experience in Scouting provides the basis for making the best decisions for a specific Scouting program. Scouting has become an ever increasingly complicated program to execute. Many adults (and/or parents) simply can't and/or won't make the time to support Scouting. Some large Troops in our area won't allow a boy to join their Troop unless a parent joins with him. I understand this policy, but our Troop's tradition is not to turn a boy away from Scouting. You don't like to see interpretations of rules, and demand that we abide by them to the letter. The uniform policy you state is very low on our list. Uniforms will be required for BOR's. Period. When Scouters have to train and advise youth leaders to plan and execute an exciting program, we have to deal with REAL Scouts, with REAL parents (when there are parents), with REAL Patrols and Troops on REAL camping trips. The Scouting Spirit will continue to guide our programs. Of course you'll say that I'm changing the rules and that we (all of our adult leaders in the Troop, District, and Council) have NO authority to do so. In case you haven't been down on the Troop level for awhile, you pick your battles. This is all I will say on this subject. sst3rd

You're either in uniform or not. The Scoutmaster's Conference prepares the Scout for his BOR. Every Scout is treated individually, as it should be. If the Scout is NOT prepared for his BOR, the Scoutmaster discusses where improvements need to be made, and a BOR is rescheduled. I (the Scoutmaster)work with the Scout in scheduling his BOR, and he is told to be in uniform or no such BOR will happen. It's not a threat, it is simply expected. You can quote rules and procedures til the cows come home, but in my many years of Scouting, I'm not aware of any of my Scouter associates who do otherwise. sst3rd

Absolutely, OGE, the Eagle project planning is as important as the actual execution. The documentation for the Eagle Project will show the involvement of the Eagle candidate in this planning process. Both parts must be successful. The Eagle Project is the one project that cannot benefit Scouting. Where as projects for Star and Life requirements can include Scouting as recepients.

The camp our Troop attends, has got to be one of the best on the east coast. Blue Ridge Council has a reservation that's one of the biggest. They run two traditional camps, Camp Powhatan and Camp Ottari. These camps are back to back in location. This Scout Reservation is located near Blacksburg, Virginia. Each camp has the standard set up, but the additional programs are incredible. High Knoll, is backpacking in the Blue Ridge mountains, Aquatics Camp is on Claytor Lake, Mountain Man Camp, New River Adventure, Fish Camp, etc.. They are a little expensive, but the programs, equipment, and Staff are excellent. The Spirit the Staff shows, is a Scoutmaster's dream come true. They will go out of their way to make a Troop's summer camp program successful on all levels. I forgot their website address, but "search" for it. It should come up quick. At least request a camp guide and review it. There probably are no spots for this year, but you might find a cancellation somewhere. Just for the record, our Troop is NOT from this camp's Council, yet we consider it our "home" camp.

A special group of the Woodbadge Staff assembles at our District Roundtable, and gives a presentation that is educational to the attendees, as well as dignified for the candidate. Only one Scouter is presented his/her beads at a time. The District level is a more personal venue, but usually the Woodbadge Staff invites all of the Scouters from the candidate's Patrol to attend. This has been our District's tradition for years, however, I am sure they would also do a presentation on the Troop level as well. So, find someone to get in touch with the Woodbadge Staff, and ask them to work with the Troop on a presentation. Include everyone you want, but keep it simple. It is NOT an Eagle Ceremony. Since you have multiple candidates, try to be sure something on an "individual" basis is included in the presentation. As inportant as Woodbadge Training is, please remember that Scouting is for the Scouts. Don't make this bigger than your Troop's Court of Honors.

Trust me, you're going to get alot of great input on this one. Our Troop is lucky enough to be close to the ocean, mountains, lakes, military bases, state and national parks, and lots of historical sites. When we have our annual planning meeting with the PLC in August, the Troop membership and all of the adults attend as well. The PLC usually picks about half of the trips we did the prior year, and half of the trips are at new locations. If you don't backpack on some trips, start that tradition. That'll give the PLC alot to prepare for. Trips involving day long biking on historical trails are great. If your Troop is big enough, create a mini CAMPOREE. You can do this with just two Patrols, and adult leaders can work with the youth Staff to provide the stations. If your trips are varied and interesting, stick to it. When your small group of Scouts has a good time, they'll tell the others about it. Don't be discouraged and don't allow this temporary setback to slow down your PLC's program. Just another quick note. If you set your trip dates in advance, like at an annual program planning meeting usually in August, stick to those dates. Don't try to change things around to try and get more Scouts on trips. Also, if you describe your Troop's location, the fine Scouters in this board can give you more specific suggestions. Like, do you live in or near a big city, small city, or small town. Do you live in the middle of Death Valley, or in the Rocky Mountains. Keep the Spirit!!!

Our Troop has a group of older Scouts. It just "happened," but they are called our Venture Patrol. As commented above, these guys don't mind teaching the younger Scouts and are getting close to their Eagle rank. The peer pressure of hanging in long enough to get their Eagle has worked well, plus they are afforded opportunities in our Scouting program as appropriate for them. They help select and plan these programs, but they usually happen at the normal Troop activities. Thus, our younger Scouts see them in action. Since our Troop barely has enough trained and committed adult leaders for the basic programs, we can't take this group to the higher level of a Venture program. They seem satisfied, and are almost 100% active, and that's what it's all about. It's their program, and I'm proud of what they've done with it.

I've really found interesting the many comments and stories concerning this important subject. The "victim defined" statement I mentioned, was from a corporate training session during a time that my company was dealing with many cases of harrassment. It went overboard, but the point was made. You've got to be careful in what you say, and what your actions are. All of the prior comments remind me of the evolution of Scouting families over the last 30 years or so. Scout Troops have had to change, and it is still a matter of opinion, setting limits, defining parameters, using common sense, and as adult leaders, conveying these "ideals" of Scouting in a way that the youth leaders understand the importance. If the younger Scouts don't feel commfortable with the Troop and its program, they simply quit. Once that happens, you don't get them back. Call it "thin skinned" if you wish, but there are just too many other options for a young man to get involved in, and frankly, we're fighting to keep all of our Scouts. Our Pack hasn't graduated a Webolos for three years. Those issues are being worked, and it's another story, but we have a fantastic program. Onward...... I'm done, and wish all of you a Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays.