sst3rd

Speaking from my experiences only, this past year, our Lodge told us that there would be no more OA Elections allowed at our summer camp. Understanding that a fair amount of Scouts are "Called-Out" at summer camp, but our Lodge wants the Troops to have their elections before coming to summer camp using the Chapter Election Teams. Our Lodge and Chapters promote OA Elections throughout the year at the Troops discretion. One per Troop per calendar year, please. So, as I have read here in this forum, some Lodges only allow elections during a brief time once a year. That's got to be bogus. I've always heard that Scouts could be "Called-Out" at out of council summer camps with a letter from the home Lodge. Elections and Ordeals needed to be done at home. I've heard of one, but all other camps that I've experienced, have never had "Ordeals" offered as part of the summer camp program. I didn't realize that there was this much variation across this country of ours. sst3rd

I can't imagine this being a Chapter/Lodge option. Our Troop has it's annual OA Election every August. Lots of Scouts could possibly be out of town during this time of the year. In the past, we've had OA nominees out of town during our election. It's not a problem. Their names are up on the board with everyone elses. If the Scouts want to vote for a Scout who just happens to be out of town, they'll vote for them. It's never been an issue with us. Their qualities haven't changed, just because they couldn't make the meeting for an appropriate reason. Yes, I said "appropriate." If a potential OA Scout knows that there is an OA election at a certain meeting, and they decide to go to a movie, I'll (SM) take their name off the ballot (yes, Scoutmaster's Approval). Certainly this issue is somewhere documented. sst3rd

Crossramwedge, Wow. You're really working this. But I do understand your concern about lost paperwork. First off, the Scoutmaster is to be working with the Election Committee from the time they come in the door, through the election process, and when the paperwork is filled out. If anyone is elected, "someone" has to provide the Election Committee with those Scout's information. It's usually always the Scoutmaster. Because everyone around my area wants any Scouts (if elected) to be "surprised" at their Call-Out Ceremony, paperwork is filled out and held until the Call-Out Ceremony is done. Our Lodge Registrar is so efficient, he sends out invitation letters very quickly. Too quickly sometimes. And the Scout receives his invitation letter in the mail before he's Called-Out. Surprise lost. We send nothing to the Scoutmasters. They should know the night of the election. They "really" should. Get a new Scoutmaster. So, the whole process is based on the Troop's OA traditions and wishes. The Scoutmaster should be in the lead on this. Sorry that yours doesn't wish to be. So who does represents your Troop at your Troop OA Elections? That's the person you evidently want to talk to. Good Luck, and let us know what happens. We do care. sst3rd NOTE: I keep hearing folks occasionally alluding to the fact that only non-OA members of a Scout Troop vote in the Troop's annual elections. This is not true. All Scouts in a Troop, OA members and non-OA members, vote.

Crossramwedge, I'm sorry you're not getting the answers you want. There's a lot of experience talking here. I have found that if the Scoutmaster uses the "Scoutmaster's Approval" requirement wisely, he can make sure that only the finest Scouts are candidates for the Election. This is where you can avoid the "popularity" contest. Have you talked with your Scoutmaster yet about your Troop's OA Election process and whether you son was voted in or not? Did he receive any votes? I'm a Scoutmaster, and I've had that information available if a Scout or parent wanted to discuss the election. It shows at least a trend. sst3rd

Troop traditions about this process vary. Technically, a "Call-Out" Ceremony doesn't have to happen at all. The Scoutmaster may announce the results directly after the OA Election. Maybe the Troop allows the Chapter Election Committee to submit the results to the Lodge and have a letter of invitation to the next upcoming Ordeal program sent to the Scout(s). Scouts from the Troop, members and non-members of the OA, can vote in the OA Election. If a Call-Out Ceremony is the tradition of the Troop, ceremonies can happen at summer camp, maybe at a Camporee. In our Lodge, each Chapter has a Ceremonial Team to respond to requests from each Troop as needed. Each Chapter Election Committee gives the Troops their associated Ceremonial Team's contact information. Here in my area, some Troops have their own Ceremonial Call-Out Teams. They can then personalize the Call-Out Ceremony for their Troop. As all others have said, you should be able to ask the Scoutmaster. He/she can explain your Troop's process and answer your questions. Nothing is secret in the BSA. Good Luck, sst3rd

Along those same lines, I've noticed in the last year or so, parents showing up with their Scouts on the Friday night of a weekend camping trip "stressed out," and showing it. As the Scouts are organizing their kitchen and food boxes and then loading up, I'm ( the Scoutmaster) packing the administrative stuff and all of that support material we need for the weekend program. These stressed out parents are interrupting me and want to talk about how their week has been extremely busy, and that nothing was going right, and that they were lucky just to get their son to this camp out. On and on........ Of course, I've had a busy week too, but that doesn't seem to count. And as I'm coordinating with maps and directions with the folks going on the trip or at least transporting, these stresseed out parents are telling me how they'd love to be on this trip, but have a busy weekend lined up and just couldn't find the time, etc.. Anybody else experiencing this same situation? These parents aren't on the trips, but don't seem to recognize that I ( and the other adults camping with the Troop) have a full life as well, and we've organized our lives for the camping trips. It's really not that hard. Just asking,,,,,,,,,,,,,, sst3rd

As a Scoutmaster of a "few" years, I have just realized that my interpretation of this final requirement for a Scout's qualification to be nominated for a Troop's annual OA Election, has changed over recent years (wow, what a run-on sentence). Every year, it was usually clear. The Scouts that showed more than the average amount of Scouting Spirit and promoted camping in our Troop by simply going, learning, having a great time (sun or rain, hot or cold), and setting a great Scout example, were nominated for the election. The last few years, it appears that I have "approved" Scouts for the Election, who were just not trouble makers. These were good Scouts, but they never really stuck out Spirit wise. And of course, the Scouts voted them all in. You see, that's probably part of my problem. Up until a few years ago, the Scouts were limited in their voting. How many Scouts you could vote for, was directly related to how many Scouts were nominated. I forget the numbers, but it was something like: 4 nominated, you get to vote for 2; 5 nominated, you get to vote for 3, and so on. I could be off on those, but the point I'm making, is that now the Scouts can vote with no limits. They don't have to think and choose anymore. They figure if the Scoutmaster approved the candidates, they must be okay. Ouch, I don't like that. Also, didn't a candidate have to have a majority of those Scouts voting, and not just half? Anyway, I guess you can tell that our annual OA Election is coming up right after summer camp, and our Troop OA members have been talking to me about candidates and who I might approve or not. So, what are your thoughts, and how has your Troop Scoutmaster been applying this important requirement, "Scoutmaster's Approval.? sst3rd

tcherven and John, Your thoughts and tales are great. Having not done something like this before, this is a great help. I hope to get a few more ideas. I will forward this information to the Pack, as they're still looking for ideas too. Our Chapter Ceremonial Team has been given these ideas as well. Thanks for giving them a starting place. sst3rd

Scouters, I've been on the Troop side of Scouting for years, and never really had formal experience with our associated Pack (I was a Cub). I'm currently the Advisor for our Chapter's Ceremonial Team. Although other Lodges and Chapters may do things differently, our Chapter Ceremonial teams are the groups that do Call-Out Ceremonies (formerly Tap-Outs), Arrow of Light Ceremonies, and Crossover Ceremonies. I've had a request form a Pack, to assist them in their graduation ceremony. This is the Pack meeting where Tigers graduate to Wolfs, Wolfs to Bears, and Bears to Webolos. They have already had their AOL and Crossover Ceremonies. We've offered to help, but our Ceremonial Team doesn't have a ceremony for this. This Pack evidently doesn't either. I could put something together with our Team, but I'd rather start from somewhere. So, does anybody have a ceremony I could borrow and modify for this particular Pack? I'd appreciate any assistance. If you like, I can attempt to PM anyone if they wish. Thanks, sst3rd

Yes.

You mention only the two "base" camps. Both are outstanding. Above average facilities, but the Staff is outstanding. They work hard at helping to provide an outstanding program. It's the attention to details that is so remarkable. We've recently been attending Camp Powhatan, so here are my comments: There's so much to talk about. Our Troop has been going there for years, and participating in their various additional high adventure programs. I'm sure others will give you their details. The dining hall is average, but the food is above average, and the portions ae adequate. The lake is a bit cold, as it's fed by mountain streams. But the lake isn't cold enough to stop the Scouts from the full range of aquatic activities. Air temperature during the day is as hot as down in the "flatlands", so when you get out of the cool water, it's great. At night, the tents cool down and makes for a great night's sleep. Their trading post is outstanding. I could go into more details and explain each area of program, but it's simply too much. Overall, Camp Powhatan and Camp Ottari are excellent. And the real driving point is the Staff, pure and simple. Reserve for 2008 soon, as they get booked up during the prior summer camp sessions. Enjoy your experiences. We're set for 2007! sst3rd

eagle97_78, I agree with jblake47. And just in case you were wondering, no, I don't need reminding of the Oath and Law. Our Troop recruiting programs are very successful, thank you. Our Council is constantly reviewing its area looking for opportunities to start new units. You need to get in touch with your Council with all of your recruiting ideas. Maybe they'll let you run with it. sst3rd

dScouter15, This has been discussed before. You'll get responses reminding everyone that there is no "punishment" in the Boy Scouts. Period. As the Scoutmaster, I've informed all of the adult leaders and the youth leaders, that when there is a discipline problem, depending on the circumstances, the Patrol Leader should give the Scout a chance or two. If it continues, the Scout is removed from the Patrol and activity. He hangs out with the adult leaders and has an immediate Scoutmaster's Conference. It's determined whether he can go back to the Patrol for another try, or a parent is called, and he is sent home. Of course, we'll take the time to explain everything to the parent. What I have found in years of Scouting is, that as long as the program is busy, challenging, and exciting, there are no excuses for a Scout not participating. The Scout wants attention, and wants to disrupt the Patrol activity. We simply have learned to take the Scout out of the Patrol, and the Patrol runs fine after that. The disruptive Scout sees that he can't mess up the Patrol activity, and his audience has been removed. Problem solved (usually), sst3rd

I figured I'd go ahead and weigh in on this BP Patrol System vs. the BSA program that's being talked about on all of these associated threads and subjects. The BP Patrol System is interesting, but is not the BSA program. Is the BP Patrol System being implimented throughout the US in BP Troops? I don't know, but wish Kudo well in his desire to spread the word of the BP Patrol System and to start these BP Troops. The Troop I currently serve, uses the BSA program. The Scoutmaster regularly trains the youth leaders, the youth leaders (through the PLC and the Patrols) executes the programs they plan, and the adult leaders (Scoutmasters and Committee), support the PLC's programs. All of the details in the BSA program go towards the successful completion of our Scout's goals. It has and continues to work great for us. It really isn't that difficult to understand. Work the BSA program. If you'd rather run the BP Patrol System of scouting, join a BP Troop. That's all from me. I'm done. sst3rd

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Advancement Report units are required to submit for advancements. Whether a Scout has lost his blue cards, lost his handbook, lost his rank cards, or if a Troop receives a transfer Scout and his documentation is incomplete, those Advancement Reports validate all advancement. Advancements Reports create copies for the Council and the unit (and I think there's a third copy, but I can't remember whose copy that is). You can then update a new replacement handbook and precede with confidence. All Councils require Advancement Reports. As for all of the units, they're supposed to use them. sst3rd

It's been exciting to hear all of this stuff for and against New Scout Patrols. We have an older Troop, and have never had to worry about a group of Webolos graduating into our Troop together. Our Pack is up and down. We work with other Packs too. It's a big recruiting thing around here. You know, recruiting from Packs that used to go to their associated Troop (but that's been discussed so many times here). Our Troop supports our Pack as we are able (Den Chiefs). We work with the Webolos on camping trips, etc.. We run Patrols. Period. We have an excellent program, and our Scouts bring in their friends to check out. Some stay, others don't. So, those that stay, go to their friend's Patrol. Pretty simple. We'll pick up a couple of Webolos from our pack in the Fall. I'm sending out a blind recruiting/invitation letter to a list of Webolos that have dropped out of the Pack this past year. We don't do phone calls. They'll check it out, or they won't. We have a bunch of younger brothers chomping at the bit to join their older brothers in the Troop. They're nine, almost ten. No, they don't want to join our Pack. They're ready for camping, biking, hiking, swimming, etc.., NOW!!! But they have to wait about another year. So, it's been easier for us. As we don't have to worry about vertical or horizontal Patrols. That's a hoot. Vertical and horizontal Patrols. Folks, run the program, make it exciting. Set up Patrols that work for you after checking with the PLC. The program belongs to the PLC. At least the last time that I looked. sst3rd (I'm a SM)

Clean house. There is absolutely no reason to keep them on the roster. If they ask why are they being dropped, tell them. You owe them nothing more. The adults need to be active to some level, but since these adults are not involved at all, that would be an easy call for me. Same goes with the Scouts. If they are inactive and/or behind in their dues (which pays the re-charter fees), drop them. We just re-chartered. We dropped 4 Scouts. One moved to Arizona. Another moved back to Columbia, South America. Another turned 18. Another was just inactive. He has since became active again and paid up his dues. We have a really good program as always, and he told his Scout friends he missed it. Glad to have him back. No adults were dropped. They're all active. We keep membership simple. You're involved, or you're not. sst3rd

And here I thought it was the Scoutmaster working with the Scout to verify the paperwork. I figure since the Scoutmaster has worked with the Scout through the advancement process for the last few years, he/she would have a direct investment in making sure all is well. As a current Scoutmaster, I'll admit that I'm the one that does the Advancement Reports that go to Council. I verify the Scout's handbook, his blue cards (or other merit badge documentation), and the Troop's copy of the Advancement Report. I have a working Committee that handles several key responsibilities. I guess this is one part that I'd rather do myself. I've been burned several times in the past when I'd delegate advancement documentation to a Committee member. Problems always found there way to the Scoutmaster (me), so I figured I'd just keep doing it myself. Our Council is so far behind in implementing the possibilities with Scoutnet (as we unit leaders have been led to believe it to be), it's not funny. They are backlogged with trying to submit info on Scoutnet, the units simply can't use it for anything. The bottom line for advancement, is the signed Scout handbook, the signed merit badge blue cards (or other documentation), and the signed Advancement Reports. And just one more point, any Scout that transfers to our Troop, I immediately verify his advancement with his handbook, and all documentation he can supply me from his prior Troop(s). I'll personally call all involved Councils and ask for verification with Advancement Reports that I hoped the prior Troops have submitted. Don't wait until later. It will come back and bite you. sst3rd

I can only cover the last 35 years in our Council and the Troop that I serve. Troops are responsible for assembling the Eagle Board of Review, just like all of a Scout's prior Boards of Reviews. The Troop assigns the Chairperson of those EBOR's. The only difference is, that we invite someone from the Council's Advancement Committee. He/she simply represents the Council in this proceeding. sst3rd

fgoodwin, Our Council calendar comes out in June of each year, and our Troop meets for its Annual Planning Meeting in August. As a long time Scoutmaster, I will admit here, that I schedule the dates of our camping trips for the new season (September to August). It's simply not fair to put the Scouts in the position to attempt this process. Experience has shown me, that by the time I fill in the Council dates (camporees, training, OA, Re-Charter, Super Saturday, etc..), federal, state, and local holidays, our sponsor's dates, and multiple school districts dates, there's very little to work with anyway. The calendar kind of works itself out. After the dates have been established, it's turned over to the SPL and the Troop to discuss, decide, and plan the new year. All of the adult leaders are there for advice and suggestions, but the Troop decides what they're doing for the next year. It's worked for us for over 43 years. We're happy. sst3rd

OGE is correct. Once a rank is earned, it cannot be taken away. There is no written BSA rule saying the Scoutmaster can or cannot manipulate advancement, so don't ask for one. There simply is no mechanism in the BSA program allowing this. I'm sure you're going to get many suggestions, because there are many appropriate ways to address behavior problems. That Scoutmaster needs to be trained, because he obviously doesn't know acceptable methods. As far as Troop by-laws, some Troops have them, and they have been discussed extensively in these forums. If you have them, why didn't the Scoutmaster use them? But since the Scout has left................ but then for those "future issues," sounds like you've got problems. sst3rd

Prairie, a "truer" program real patrol method "old" Patrol Method pre1970s scouting gently enlighten value of the Patrol Method core values intact corporate/factory/troop model WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! spin, spin, spin................... It's been interesting to read Kudo being severely critical of the "current" BSA program. Scouting is an ever changing program. Always has been. Some good, others maybe not, but is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure what you guys are looking for, but it ain't going to happen in this BSA. Our Troop is only about 50 years old, so relatively young compared to a lot of Troops. Our Troop has always been made up of Patrols. We train our youth leaders to organize their Patrols. They camp, eat, and do most all of their activities as Patrols. The Patrol Leader is trained to delegate Patrol responsibilities around the Patrol, so as a team, they can get a lot more accomplished (camping chores done), so they can get to the program, as Patrols. And then they can goof off as Patrols (or maybe mix it up with the other Patrols). Our SPL and his Staff run the Troop's programs for the Patrols. They help the Patrol Leaders teach Scouting skills as well. How hard does it have to be??????????? Is it that the skills over the many years have changed? Older skills having been dropped, and more current skills being added? Is that it? Is that the "beef" that you guys have? Because I don't see where the basic organization has been altered. Patrols. Patrols. Patrols. This is the way our adult Staff has interpreted the current program. It happens to be the way we've intrepreted the program for almost 50 years. Just my thoughts. I'm done. sst3rd

CNYSCOUTER, In the 60's, when my brother and I were in the Scouts, every May our Council had what it called then, a Scout-O-Rama. It was a weekend campout for the Boy Scouts, but there was the Scout Show during the day Saturday. Sounds very similar to your event. We'd sell tickets (and yes part of the proceeds went to the Council) to our parents and friends. The Troops would set up demonstrations of Scout skills outside, etc.. And the Packs set up demonstrations inside (this was at our state fair site). There were door prizes and ribbons for the demonstrations. There were even Troop competitions during the Scout Show to create Scouting Spirit. It was very successful until the late 70's. It then became a "day" event only, but started to struggled to get the Troops and Packs to participate. I'm guessing maybe 6 or 7 years ago, the Council gave it up. I think they finally figured that the units simply wanted that time for unit activities and camping trips, and all the Scout Show was becoming, was a fundraiser for the Council. And we haven't heard anyone around our District saying they missed it. I think it was a good move. Scouting marches onward. This fall, our Council is having our Council Camporee. It's helded approximately every 4 or 5 years. All of the ones I've gone to over the years, have been well attended. If the Council makes this one special, unique, exciting, and challenging (as they done in the past), there'll be a big turn out. Yes, time is everything. sst3rd

WDL Mom, Way to go. Congratulations. I only wish our Pack would give winter camping a try. We've supported our Pack for years, but can't seem to get this current bunch camping when it's cold. Your Den is off to a great start!!!!!!!!!!!!! sst3rd

gwd-scouter, I agree with local1400. Push ahead knowing that you have something special with your Troop. My Troop has to work for every Scout we get, friend, transfer, or graduate. We never get the "graduating" class I keep hearing about. Our associated Pack is weak, and the Troop supplies Den Chiefs and invitations to our activities. Our Pack is inconsistant, and all I hear is (as Scoutmaster), the adult leaders can't wait until their Scouts quit, or move up to our Troop. I'd rather you take your quality program and grow one Scout at a time. Your excellent reputation will continue to grow, so be ready. You only have one chance to make that first impression. We're proud of your efforts. Don't stop now. sst3rd