SSScout

"Follow the money". I believe that came from DEEP THROAT. "It's for the kids". Bob the Tomatoe said that. "Let's sell the 2 main Council camps and buy this bigger property for cheap, and consolidate our camps" Somebody said that 15 years ago... "Wow, I didn't know it was a 4 hour drive down to camp Q. Let's go to camp X in this other council. It's only 1 1/2 hours away." I said that... The question almost always seems to gravitate to deciding between: **Is the BSA Council a 'Business'? (A business must show a profit, and if it does, who benefits? Are there "stock holders?") ** Does the BSA Council have a 'Greater Purpose' that it was created to serve? (not just making widgets.)(would Habitat for Humanity really worry about monetary profit?) ** If there is a 'Greater Purpose", what assets are most useful to that end? Money in the bank? Well paid, well dressed executives? Can these 'Bosses' demonstrate their worth? Wooded Campsites close to the Clients? Equipment kept in good condition? What might it cost (in salaries) to replace any volunteer workers with "professional" workers? ** Are reputations or egos being challenged? Are egos more important than the 'Greater Purpose'? Or the "clients"? ** What is the REAL purpose of the Council Executive Staff, as defined by the above questions? Get the newspapers interested in helping to define the difference between the OFFICIAL 'Greater Purpose' and the REAL purpose of the governing board. "follow the money"...

When B-P was asked about the Scout Motto, 'Be Prepared', he was asked "be prepared for what?" His reply was, " well, for any old thing". That great social commentator, Giles Murphy, observed that "If anything can go wrong, it will". We have since been given the Selective Law of Gravitation ("that will be dropped that will do the most damage") and The Parkinson Principle (" junk will be collected to fill the space available") and the Peter Principle (" an employee will rise in an organization to his level of incompetence, at which time he will no longer be promoted"). In light of Mr. Murphy, Scouts should be prepared to counter such predictive dictums as The Bicycling Law (" the wind is always in your face") and the Back Pack Rule (" the item you really really need is either at the bottom of the pack or on the kitchen table"). I would ask my Scouting friends, are there any more to add to the list? YiS

"Has anyone any direct experience with BSA retribution against a leader expressing disagreement in a rational and courtious way?" "Packsaddle gives us an example of a threat to revoke membership if a critical op-ed was published--is anyone aware of anything like that actually being done? It seems to me that it would be pretty bad PR for BSA to kick out somebody for disagreeing in an orderly fashion (it would violate the Scout Law)." I was cruising thru the "headlines " area a few weeks back and came upon the story from Bradenton Florida about the future of "Camp Flying Eagle" of the Southwest Florida Council. Seems the council is not really considering selling the camp BUT " we'll listen to serious offers" ummm... So the Volunteer Campmaster , B.J. "Red Dog" Maynard, age 77, a Scout for over 50 years, decided to protest this non-policy, and after going thru "official" channels, helped form a community activist group to lobby about zoning subjects, and ended up being president of the association. The association brought suit against the Council to prevent the sale of the camp (bequest considerations, wills, non-policies etc. complicate things). And so the Council ( a combination of two prior councils, another story there) has stated that Mr. Maynard must EITHER resign from the community group OR resign from Scouting, OR he will be removed from the rolls, the Council citing a perceived "conflict of interest" and "loyalty issues". Google ""B. J. "Red Dog" Maynard"" for lots more info... Is THIS retribution ummm?

Thoughts as they come... My mom grew up as a "flapper", one of the first "liberated" women. She was one of the first female Journalism degree earners from Boston U. And she smoked like a factory chimney. When I knew her, she had a 3 pack a day habit. Then, when I was, oh, maybe 7 or 8, she announced that she was quitting, got down to 3 cigs a day and then quit all together. She finally died at age 82. Might have lived even longer, the Dr. said, but her emphesema would not allow. News item: Tobacco company memoes reveal plan to add chemicals to tobbacco products to increase their addictive qualities. When the Europeans arrived in the New World, they met folks that used tobacco for ceremonial purposes, even spiritual purposes. They recognized that tobacco had an effect on the person. White man took that and ... Bob Newhart has a wonderful routine in which he is the Queen's agent in England, talking on the phone to Sir Walter Raleigh in Virginia, about this new activity: "It's called tobacco? uh huh. to- back- koe. It's a leaf? Okay, and what do you do with it? uh huh. Umm. What you do is you, you roll it into little cylinders and, and you stick them in your mouth , yeah, okay... and then you set fire to it??? Is that right? Walt, are you pulling my leg?" It's all down hill from there. "Some times a cigar is just a cigar" ...Sigmund Freud. Not a few years ago,I once met up with an acquaintance of mine who smoked like an old WW1 destroyer. Never saw him without a cig in his mouth. I asked him, "How'd you like to have an extra $100. a month?" he brightened up and said, "sure, how'd I do that?" I said, "quit smoking". I still remember the look of recognition on his face. Back then $100. was a LOT of money. He cut down soon after. When I was running track back in school, I trained with a senior who smoked (big man on campus, had to smoke..). When he trained for the season, he quit. After the season, took it up again. Never understood why the difference. He spoke of how he breathed easier with out the weed, but 'he enjoyed it'. Maybe you should have said something, but then, maybe you did...

Everytime I see or hear an episode like this (someone can't WAIT for our boys to make things/decisions/discussions HAPPEN....because I can do it faster/easier/more appropriately...) I am reminded of the classic routine by Bob and Ray, "The Slow Talkers of America". Find it, look it up, listen to it, learn from it! "...ofAMERICA!!" LoL YiS

WELL!! Here I am,minding my own business, listening to my "classic rock" station as my son and I return from his Ice skating lesson today ( I want his cultural education to be complete), when the DJ, Shelby, announces that the lunchtime theme today is SCOUTING, from a request of a "Tiger Scout Pack", who had done some service project. People called in to suggest songs in line with "Scoutings Values" . HELP by the Beattles, CCRs "Run thru the Jungle" (Be Prepared), "Get Ready" (Be Prepared again), usw.. CELL PHONE TIME...AND when I called in to request Allan Sherman's "Camp Grenada...Hello mudda, Hello Fadda" (hey, Scouts go camping!!) THEY PUT ME ON THE AIR!! I reminded them that our Scout camps were NOTHING like Grenada!! I thanked Shelby for mentioning Scouting, and a good time was had by all, even the fellow that called in to say that the Scout motto was "trustworthyloyalhelpfulfriendlycouteouskindobedientthriftybravecleanandreverent" (he asked for something by the Eagles).(someone else called in to remind him that that was the LAW, the MOTTO was...) Even the woman who asked for Adam Ants "Goody Goody Two Shoes" had a good time. And the boy thought his old man was way cool... Thank you, WARW, 94.7 fm in Baltimore!!

Perhaps the parents need the patches...

I have something of a reputation as a campfire story teller. I have a bit of a repertoire. But when I tell a story, my audience will KNOW if it is a bit of history (personally mine or otherwise) or if it is only allegory or example ("there once was an old indian chief..."). I was told the campfire ash story was a TRUE tradition. It had happened, was continuing to happen. I cannot pass on something as TRUE, as historically accurate ("B-P did this...") if it is not so. I do so BECAUSE a Scout told me it was true to him. The Coca Cola Santa Claus is NOT a historically true story, childhood dreams and St. Nickolas in Constantinople not withstanding. So, do I continue to tell the ash story as a wonderful example of a symbolic tradition (" Lord B-P knew that...") or as an allegory of something that sounds nice ("Lord B-P is said to have...")? A Scout is Trustworthy...

Thoughts... Ain't never been wet that I didn't get dry... At one exteme... I went to school in Indiana for many years, visited a lot of friends thruout the state there thruout the year , never saw a tornado. I have seen three in Maryland, been close enough to worry. Maryland is NOT a tornado alley state! Thunderstorms are exciting and dangerous. Those two words always go together, I think. Canoeing? E&D. Hiking the Appalachian trail in the winter? E&D. Rock climbing? White water rafting? Yep. E&D. Surf fishing? E&D, too. Skate boarding? oh yeah..E&D..Even swimming in the neighborhood pool CAN be E&D. Roller coaster riding? E&D...Watching TV? Depends on the show, yes? It can be exciting (which is why we watch) and dangerous (what is the show telling us about ourselves and our world?).Adventure is about stepping outside our comfort zone, however gingerly, One decides what to DO and does ones best to do it safely, mitigating the dangerous part. Life guards, safety helmets, planning, training, critical thinking, listening to them that have been there & done that. See again the GtSS. Camping in Thunderstorms? Well, hopefully not on PURPOSE. There are "tornado chasers", who seek the excitement but mitigate the danger as they study the storm. Scouts are not them. The desire for the excitement must give way to reasoned thinking, yes? Planning, study, proper equipment make our trips and adventures exciting AND as safe as possible. I would modify Frank Buck's motto: Scouts "bring'em back alive" by "being prepared" . I know your son will learn and grow in Scouting. He's there because it IS exciting, but only because alot of Scouts have been there and done that. Be confident his Scout leaders will "do their best" to "bring'em back alive". Always.

I first heard the "Baden - Powell" Campfire ash story at a Parent Son Overnight. In all my Scout history, going back to the 60's, I had not heard of it before. I was very impressed,took hold of the 'tradition'. I eventually asked the man who had presented the story ( the discovery of fire, it's taming and use for good or ill, the fellowship and spiritual center imbued in a campfire, story telling, etc.) and asked him about the truth of it. He said that the men who had given the story to him had assured him of its truth. All good, loyal Scouts, the 'Man' lineage evidently going back 50 or 60 years... He gave me a looonngg pedegree, including Brownsea Island, national and world Jamborees, campfires in almost every state, 50 other countries, and a trip of some ashes to the moon with an Apollo Astronaut... And now I am told the story is a made up myth? So I am left with deciding 1) Does the story SOUND true? Is it credible? 2) Is it important to have DOCUMENTATION as to B-P's having actually started this chain of campfires? and 3) Can I BELIEVE the men who told the story to me? and 4) Is there VALUE in passing the story on to others (not just Scouts!)? 1) Yes, it SOUNDS true. It could have happened. It has the ring of B-P in it, from what I've read of him. 2) I do not have the actual DOCUMENTATION. I'm not sure I could do the research necessary. Others must give testimony to the yea or nea of it. 3) "A Scout is Trustworthy". If a Scout, ANY Scout, tells me something, I will believe him/her until I undeniably find out different. It is what our "program" is all about. Check the OLD Handbooks, and you will find words to the effect that should a Scout be found untrustworthy, he might be asked to turn over his Scout badge (see another thread about rescinding Scout membership or earned rank).Unadulterated truth, with or without an "oath". 4)It makes a real thought provoker. The passing on of tradition. The use of a commodity (FIRE!) in ways one might not ordinarily consider. Collection of a nondescript, otherwise worthless material (ashes and coals) as a remembrance of things and times gone by. A connection to the REALLY distant past. The story has been used (by me and as I've listened, by others) to link Scouts with Scouting's Past, with grandparents and their time, with the importance of passing on family, personal history, of the importance of LISTENING to the elders....( a link to the invention of cooking and barbecue comes to mind) So will I continue to tell this "story"? I think I will.

Both systems(New Boy Patrol and Feed in to Old Patrols) can work well, with appropriate leadership/mentoring. In NBP,this can either be a whole new Patrol, where the boys go thru Scouting together, or they may be reassigned later to 'regular' Patrols. In the OP system, you can have a certain traditional culture exist that is very 'Scoutish' and positive. But the SM and ASMs need to be sensitive to the creation of cliques and mini tyrants (see Lord of the Flies) as the the newer boys are either welcomed in as equals or 'initiated' as 'plebes' or 'servants'. True story: A bike camp trip was planned. Being the resident bike expert (used to own a shop), a parent called and asked first if I would check over his son's bike. Sure, I said bring it over. Then he started asking about our plans. Where would we sleep? Camp grounds along the route were reserved. Who carries the gear? The boys carry the light stuff in bike packs, we had a 'sag wagon' for support. Well, what happens if it rains? The boys get wet. There was silence on the other end of the phone. Oh. Then we talked about the need for rain gear, which had already been discusssed at the planning sessions, but... Sometimes the parent needs to sleep with the boy, not the other way around. Independance has a price on both sides, I think.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every job looks like a nail. Study, learn, practice, keep your eyes open, ask questions respectfully and give thanks for the answers politely. The more you know the more you can do well. Make sure there is more than one tool in your tool box. YiS

True story. My good friend T. and I were the "Scout Craft" guys at the Cub Scout Day Camp. Since our theme was "Frontier Days" we had decided to use the Lewis and Clark expedition as a framework for the camp. Worked really well. Anyway, T. and I were the Scout Craft guys, and he had assumed the personna of a French Voyageur and used a cartoon french accent all thru camp, thus: "Zee naught iz held een yo' haund lika zis.. hau, hau ,hau...". Weeks later, we were in a grocery store and a small boy comes up to T. and smiles, and says "hau, hau, hau," and runs away giggling. That's the magic of Scouting. YiS

Boy, do I resonate with this one. As a CM for a small Pack (when I "retired" to follow my son into Scouts, one father SERIOUSLY offered to PAY me to stay on as CM), I found three main kinds of parents: the Scout parents (encourager), the my son right or wrong parent (and mostly I was wrong) and the take my son and I'll come back later parent ( I call this the "Soccer Syndrome"). I (and my wife, who was the CCh), did our best (where have I heard that before?) to work the program and had some small success. PWD was very popular, drew the most boys (used it as a recruiting tool at school) and did have some societal difficulties, but nothing like cajuncody describes. HOWEVER... I found that when a boy ( or parent) presented a problem we would try to present it generally, with a CM Minute at the Pack closing.("Once there was a boy..." or even an Aesop fable, where ever I found inspiration) Sometimes, the parent would come up later and ask, "were you speaking about me (or "Johnny?")"? And I would pray a little and then ask "do you think I was?" and perhaps we would have a friendly conversation. I never had a bad outcome, maybe a neutral one, sometimes a good one. As has been said in many other threads in this forum, we Scouters really have no business sticking our nose in the family dynamics (unless we see some evidence of real abuse. Another topic, another time), so our responsibility is to the Scout program. As an archery range safety officer, I have been chastised by a parent for being too strict and thanked heartily for being strict. I tell the boys at the beginning, the range rules are for their safety and my peace of mind. At the end of the week, I say that if I yelled at them, if I made them sit down and wait, if I insisted they follow the rules, it was because I loved them and wanted them to go home safe and unhurt, and come back next time to shoot some more arrows. As Bob the Tomato says, "it's for the kids". Cajuncody, it's for the kids, not the parents, yes? Listen to your principal. YiS.

I find great agreement with all that has been said, especially VinceC and CA_scouter. I am reminded of a comment attributed to Harry Truman. Mr. Truman was asked how he got his daughter to be such a good pianist and he reportedly replied that he found out what SHE liked to do and then encouraged her to do it.

As the Carny barker says, " Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice" All the above is true. In one of my past lives, I was a CM. I never had more fun in my life. When it came time for me to move on into Scouts with my son, I had a Cub parent approach me and ask "can I pay you to stay on as CM?" He was serious. We ( my dear wife was CCh) had a fair amount of support in keeping things Cubby. Parents went to the Leader Training. But ultimately, I could not get anyone to step up to be CM. Even tho the P/T income might have been nice,(!) I had to consider 1) how BSA would look on it 2)it was apparent that I would be ALONE. None of the other Cub parents would step up to be CM, or CCh, or Treasurer, or DL for the remaining 3 Dens. ( my dear wife was CCh and had agreed with me that without us, the Pack would dissolve. It did) 3) the dad that had promised to be Webelos DL took all the books and materials and we never heard from him again ( asuccessful contractor, his son was very active, and he watched me every meeting. Even took notes). Two Ws went to other Packs, the other 12 boys either went to other Packs or dropped out. Our DE tried hard to recruit at the schools we drew from, to no avail. In conversations with folks, it was apparent that many parents wanted the "Scout Experience" for their son, but ultimately were not willing to support it. As my DE and I agreed over some coffee one night, " all you can do is offer". In our community, one will often see exhibited what I call "the soccer syndrome", the parents are so used to giving their sons and daughters over to professionals, (or even authoritative volunteers-- the soccer coach), that they have lost the ability to take time to do for their son/daughter themselves. Let me drop off my kid and come back in 2 hours...

Camp Rules (Summer Long Term Section) Troop Rules (all the Scout time) Patrol Rules (some of the Scout time) Family House rules (ALL of the time) Federal Registry Volume 38 section 12 page 23 line 8 (If you are germane) God's Rules ( Consequences may not be immediately evident) "Why are there so many silly rules?" "I don't think THAT rule is important" "But officer I didn't know..." "NO... I WON'T MOMMY!" Along with the RULE and it's REASON should be noted the BAD things that could happen should it be flouted (bears in your tent, you clean the latrine) and the GOOD things that can happen if it is followed (you can have some gedunk occasionally, and bears won't go in your tent. They'll go in the OTHER Troops tents...). My original Troop had the following rules, way back when... No candy (except for the boy who was diabetic. We all understood). Mountain pies and Dutch oven cakes were better any way. Your money when we came to a store . No sneakers on serious backpack trips or hikes.(less turned ankles) Good boots only!. No sodas. No one wanted to carry all that extra weight anyway. Carry in, carry out? Water quenches thirst anyway. One boy was allegic to milk, so in camp we carried TANG. Strange taste in Iron heavy water. No food in tents (obvious). The older boys set the pace for all of us. Rules/tradition had to be explained to every new Scout that came up, so what? So, how do you motivate the OLDER boys (not the OLDMEN) to set/follow the RULES? And Show the Younger Scouts that we love them and need them to be safe, both for their health and well being AND our peace of mind? (boy those insuranc claim forms are long...) You have not had panic in you mind until you have had this happen: Cub Scout Day Camp. Archery Range Safety Officer. . Tiger Cubs. Teaching archery by the numbers: "Bows at ready. Nock an arrow. Pull, aim... " and then Johnny Cub turns around WITH THE BOW AT FULL DRAW to ask Mr. Smith a Question... Fortunately ( thank you God) one of my Scout assistants was right next to him and grabs the arrow and pushes it down to the ground. AND THEN THE PARENT later that week comes to me to complain about how strict I was. Similarly, I had other parents compliment me for being so strict. I explained all the RULES of the range first off, and the consequences of disregarding them. First offense, you sit down. Second, you don't shoot for that day. Third, you don't shoot the rest of the week. My Tiger Cub ultimately had a very successful week. Are archery ranges different than candy bars (" well THAT"S a silly rule")? Well, yeah, but all rules should have a REALLY good reason....

Greenbelt is good and about as close in as one can get. Check out the College Park Aviation Museum just south of Greenbelt on US Route One. On the other side of town, near I-270 is Little Bennett Regional Park, with group campsites. A short drive down to the Shady Grove Metro Station, and ride the rail down into DC. Contact the Montgomery County - Maryland National Capital Park and Planning Commission www.mc-mncppc.org 301.495.4600. Lots of history in the area, visit Fort Mc Henry as you pass by Baltimore, don'tforget a side trip to Mt Vernon or a short hike on the C&O Canal. YiS

eweiss: I would first congratulate you on being as responsible and mature as you seem to be.I can think of no higher honor than to be asked (or to volunteer?) to participate in a service such as this. Perhaps, if it is not to late, you should answer a few questions for yourslf: Did you know the girl? Was she active in the Boy troop as well as the Girl troop? You will be there to honor the girls memory and to give comfort to the family,(obviously a Scouting family). If you speak at the service, speak from YOUR heart, as the Spirit leads, don't worry about formality or ceremonial correctness. Personnally, I am not sure the flag ceremony is especially desirable, but that's just me. I would first try to remember that she was a GIRL Scout. Their promise and law are similar, but different from the BOY ones. I like the responsive reading suggested by Anneinmpls. Very moving and appropriate. If it's not too late, arrange a table or bulletin board with photos and letters from camp, poetry she liked (or wrote!),school things. The idea is to remember her life,yes? Make sure the Scouts (both B & G)come in full dress class A, of course and sit together. I'm sure you won't forget the mom. Some flowers just for her, not just around the bier. Have your PLC ready to do anything to help, direct traffic, help grandparents up the steps, carry and move things. Remind them to LOOK for things that need to be done, and do them before an adult even realizes the need. Do your SM proud. I pray God bless you all. YiS.

You folks seem to be up in New England. Not too far south is the Chesapeake & Ohio Canal tow path along the Potomac River. About 180 miles of almost level hiking from Hagerstown MD to Washington DC. Lots of Hiker-camper sites, state parks and historic sites along the way (Antietam Civil War battlefield, Harpers Ferry, Wash DC). Many in and out places, crosses AT. Contact National Park Service or National Capital Area Council. Excellent guide book available. Commemorative patch and rockers for each section of canal walked. Smile ansd wave as you go by! YiS

Run is fight! Don't forget that our news might come from a White horse souse! From Hoobert Heever!

Norfolk and Southern it is, thank you Manassaseagle. Couldn't think of that, for some old reason. CWBS has great promise and I am glad to see the property as a Scout facility rather than a mini Disneyland. I have heard that the reservations for Cub World are not quite what NCAC would like them to be, yet. We may see a saturation process here. After trying hard (with some small success) to promote the Cub Day Camp opportunity, ("Wings of Wonder" this year), which is /are run by 99% parent volunteers, now NCAC wants Cub Packs to pay bigger bucks for the 3day overnight Camp. There is some discussion in the hinterland that CWBS Cub World will draw from the Day Camps, and vice versa and neither will be as successful as desired. We now have four Cub Camping opportunities, all of which have some success but none are overflowing with Cubs (Webelos weeks, parent-son weekends, Baloo trained Pack camping,and now CWBS). There is certainly alot of disposable income in the DC area, but are the disposees Scout families? Perhaps CWBS has a future as a Cub World, but I think NCAC must leave its options open to use it as a multi-use facility. 600 seat dining hall, and who has the concession here? Wedding receptions? School Proms? "Outdoor Experience" for urban and suburban Schools? Nature study around the lake? Don't forget the pool and COPE course and the rest of the lovely place. Scout Troops can find a good, short notice camp ground here. Wood Badge? Merit Badge College? Bird Study? Lots of possibility, not all are Cub World. And it IS nice, and close in. NCAC will be looking to USE CWBS.

Camp Snyder does hold great promise. The "wetlands" are a created swamp, wetland credits, I understand. Attracts many bird specie. Nice nature trail for the short legged Cub... The article I saw was on thursday, page B3, not on the front page, (a later edition?) and howcum it didn't register in the "headlines section" of our forum? For the DC area, it is a 'close in' facility, almost a drop-in camp ground for Scouts. Unfortunately, I can forsee the need for fences around the whole property to control the suburban nonScout explorer. There are some historic properties on the perifery, an historic church comes to mind. Yes, the Marriott family ( Hot Shoppes, Hotels, Roy Rogers Hamburgers (gone)) has given mightily to the local Council, for which we are appreciative. Bugles must compete with the semi's on I66, but occassionally one can hear the lonesome wail of a diesel coal drag on the old W and OD tracks... Y'all come down an' see us some time, y'hear? YiS...

The evolution of a back pack user. When I became a Scout, my folks outfitted me with the best stuff the local Scout store had, all OI-BSA. I used the Yucca pack exactly twice by itself, packing it like the HfB instructed. The Older Scouts (Philmont vets) all had army surplus M4 PLYWOOD pack boards, or the new aluminum frame Keltys (ooooo..). I convinced my folks I had to have the M4, so we went down to Sunny's Surplus and picked out the best one in a PILE of them. I used it all thru my career. Highly adaptable. However, constant use of the 'diamond hitch' can be tiring, so...I ultimately 1)replaced the canvas back panel with a nylon mesh one. 2) Cleaned up and poly eurathaned it. 3) Replaced all the cotton cordage with nylon parachute cord 4) Installed reflective tape for night hikes 4) got tired of constantly tieing the Yucca pack on the back board, so I drilled holes and BOLTED the canvas bag to the board. 5) Had a fellow Scout dad machine out of T2048 aluminum plate hinges strong enough to serve as attachment points for a hip belt, and attached same to the bottom of the M4. It rode many miles on the AT. It is still reasonably comfortable. It is now up in my attic and occasionally comes out for bragging rights on overnights and antique show and tell ("back when I earned my dinosaur herding merit badge,..."). The last camping trip I went on with my sons troop, I used a REI frame and pack we inherited and I was dissappointed at how unadaptable it was. Many seperate pockets, but few tie on points for the odd tent pole or canteen.It did ride nicely, tho, and served well. My sons Kelty is very nice, aluminum frame and bag,(Tioga?) many pockets and many tie on points. His only complaint is the lower built in stuff sack area is really too small for his all season bag. It is a small frame, and he will no doubt outgrow it in a year or two. Unlike my M4, which I 'grew into', was an adult size board to begin with. Some would even view it as being too small by todays standards. Hey, ever try to find a plain, unadorned packframe that one can "customize"? Do you want an SUV or a Jeep, or a 5 year old pickup truck? YiS...

Definitely , a bugle with a removable mouthpiece. Then, as time and budget permits, replace the original skinny brass m/p with a cornet silver nickle one. The edge is wider and noticably more comfortable. Better tone. If you look around, you can also find 'winter' m/p that are made of a plastic, delrin I think. No freeze!!. If there is a choice, go for a B with the heaviest metal for ruggedness, and a tuning slide. They will tell you to coat the slide and m/p with a thin coat of Vaseline. Prevents corrosion and sticking. Wrap the holding part with a Scout neckerchief or other pretty rag, and your hands won't smell/taste like brass, which happens even if the horn is lacquered (worth the extra cost there). Don't forget to shake it out and clean it out after each use. Wash it out with a mild dish detergent a couple of times a year to keep the green gunk from forming (luvly). Check with your local music store for cleaning rods.I found a neat springy one that can go around curves. Trevorum: You know you want it! Get them chops back! You'll either be the most popular or reviled fellow at the next Camporee! YiS...