SR751Fox

Knight -- I don't necessarily disagree that water could replace sodas and that cracker barrels could involve some healthy alternatives. However, I think you are missing the bigger picture. People don't gain most of their weight at roundtables or campouts. Where do you draw the line? My son's troop held its annual spaghetti dinner Saturday and served Ranch dressing with the salad. They also had a dessert table. Is that OK in your book? Also, I tend to drink a lot of coffee, even though some health professionals claim it's bad for me. I'm one of the lucky ones. . . My beer gut comes from . . . beer. I'm also a sucker for a bowl of fried okra. Bacon is pretty good too. Thank goodness the BSA sells official pants in my size. a(This message has been edited by SR751Fox)

Hershey - I''d be interested to know how the unit has set a $400 sales -or- $100 dues rate. The unit keeps roughly 33% of the popcorn income (the other two-thirds is split between your council and the Pop Weaver folks). With $400 in sales, the Scout will have brought in about $133 to the unit -- so the powers-that-be in your unit are forgiving an additional $100 in sales if you just fork up $100. The same people are saying you must bring in about $250 income to become elgible for spring trip attendance. Seems like a slight double standard to me. I think unit fundraisers are among the most important lessons the boys can learn . . . My son is involved in the unit fundraiser. If he does not sell a required amount, it comes out of his pocket (not mine). Although he paid for his own summer camp last year through fundraising effort, winter camp was paid for by yard mowing income -- his own. Either way, he took responsibility. (FYI, I would write the check if he were unable to earn the difference.) A few years ago, as a Cubmaster, I urged our Pack Committee to require fundraising participation. I could see no reason why it should be any other way. One committee member explained that she felt comfortable allowing sales only to friends and family -- which wasn''t sufficient to meet the minimum goal. Who was I to question that? So, she wrote a check. Fast forward a few years to Boy Scouts and the committee (with much more wisdom than I alone) has the same system: sell a certain amount or make up the difference out of your own pocket. The bottom line here is the income necessary to pay for activities and the operation of the unit. There are many legitimate reasons why I shouldn''t shove a "must sell" rule down people''s throats, including a parent''s comfort level. (Who''s to say that parent didn''t witness some horrible scene while selling Girl Scout cookies door to door?) My advice is this: Sit down with the committee chair (NOT the Scoutmaster, since fundraisers are not his charge) and express your concerns only AFTER everything has been explained. Be prepared to counter with WHY you don''t like the system and be prepared to offer a reasonable alternative. Oh. . .You should also request a copy of the unit budget. Take care. A ..and a good ol'' Fox too!

I''ll run it by the professional (again). I appreciate your help.

John - Thanks for the quick reply and link. As I read it, row-boating is within the scope. We are in a controlled area without power or sail boats and it would be at a district event (held at a BSA camp). If I read it correctly, we need some Safety Afloat people and not necessarily NCS-trained folks. Am I reading it correctly? Thanks again.

What if. . . It is a Cub Scout event and the boys are in row-boats with an adult (their fathers) in a lake inlet? I''m told the BSA Lifeguard adult is required to be on the premises. I''m also told that a NCS-aquatics trained adult needs to be there. Problem is, there are only two (NCS-trained) in our council. One is away at college and the other is a new mom. Is the information I received correct? We would like to have this event, but our chances look slim. Perhaps there is someone here who might be willing to do a volunteer trade-off? Thank you for your help. I apologize if I''m asking anyone to repeat what has already been mentioned. SR751Fox

Carol - I thought you were from Texas when I saw the chicken fried steak. I KNEW you were from Texas when I saw the fried okra. Mmmm! I remember living along the Jersey Shore and going to grocery stores and asking for okra. People just looked at me funny. I finally had someone FedEx some from my home state. -- And campout okra, made in a dutch oven, is almost as good as mamaw used to make. (I''m back in Texas these days, so the okra is easy to come by.) Don''t forget the peach cobbler and the BEST barbecue in the country, smoked brisket (for which none of that sweet KC sauce or mustardy Carolina stuff is necessary -- dry rubbed Texas barbecue brisket smoked with pecan wood is a true stand-alone). Ya''ll have me hungry!

The only foolproof way to have someone commit is to have them hand over a deposit. Let them know up front whether their deposit is refundable. We've been burned by money issues on a number of occasions. One particular (Cub Scout) had not participated in the fundraiser, nor had his parents taken advantage of any opportunity to volunteer. (As well, there was no need for financial aid.) They were the types who would show up just as dinner was being served and would "have to leave" immediately after the last patch was awarded, but prior to cleanup. So, what did we do? We called the parent prior to a pack meeting and let her know that we needed payment for all previous and upcoming awards, or we wouldn't be able to provide anything further to her son. She paid. Just last weekend, a new Scout family had paid for food for the campout, but chose not to eat dinner with the Scouts. They've already asked for a partial refund, but will not get it. The food was purchased and prepared for them. It was their choice. This one's a no brainer. Take care. SR751Fox(This message has been edited by SR751Fox)

Lisabob -- I was illustrating absurdity. I can assure you, having cleaned a stall or two myself (mean thoroughbred racers no less), that I know all about the inherent dangers of working around horses. And you are correct about the 101+ ways kids can get hurt on farms. How many times have I had to threaten my own child to stay off the tractor and not throw rocks at the spinning PTO?!? But I also know an adult who got several toes cut off by a push mower. And I've seen a black eye caused by someone stepping on a garden rake. -- My own son sliced into his finger with the same knife that he had just earned his Tote n' Chip by showing proper use only minutes earlier. Parents must use common sense when allowing their children to participate in certain job opportunities. And for goodness' sakes, leave the Scouts out of it.

I think it goes without saying that you don't want an 11-year-old holding a hoof while the farrier does his work on the 2-year-old thoroughbred. Ultimately though, this is a parent-kid issue. It has nothing to do with the unit, district or council. As far as someone in the troop passing along possible job ideas . . . it really doesn't matter, since the parents ultimately decide.

Call me 'old school' -- I'm with OGE on this one. As a young Boy Scout, my parents told me that they were not paying my way to camp and that I would have to earn it myself. Part of that was participating in the official troop fundraiser. But any additional funds came from mowing lawns. This doesn't have to be complicated. Leave the council out of it, since it's not a Scouting issue. If someone has some hay to be stacked, stalls to be cleaned or a lawn to be mowed, they should contact the boys/parents directly and let them deal with it. Take care.

>>If your Quality District, in your Quality Council does not expect it's Unit Commissioners to actually visit the units they serve, then what DO they expect them to do?> BTW - I am also in a Quality Unit, a Quality District & a Quality Council.

I long for the day when I'm only wearing one hat. As far as the Quality District. . . All I can say is, we continue to achieve it and the return address still says Irving, Texas. And, we haven't had any 60-boy packs fall apart overnight, so apparently our system works in that regard, and the national office approves. I agree that it would be better if everyone wore only one hat, but people aren't exactly beating down the doors to volunteer. In the case of your now-defunct pack, a unit commish wearing another hat (such as the ones in my district) could have helped. Apparently, the BSA's ideal system of commissioners, as ya'll operate under, did not work for them. Meanwhile, I still contend that others held some responsibility for that unit. It's tough to hang all of it on one AWOL unit commish.

Ea -- Okay, I'm with you on the rule. But I'm also saying that in our quality district/council unit commissioners hold other positions elsewhere. Don't we all? Take care.

Ea -- I'm with you on everything except a BSA rule regarding Unit Commissioners not being unit leaders. Perhaps such a rule prevents unit leaders serving as commissioners in the same unit. But I've checked with the powers that be and no rule applies to unit leaders serving as commissioners in a different unit. Every unit commish in my district is a pack, troop or crew leader elsewhere -- including the district commish. Either way, it appears that pack's troubles was way beyond anything a unit commish could have solved. Take care.

Eamonn -- I work with two Quality Units within a Quality District (several consecutive years) within a Quality Council (also several consecutive years) and it is not our practice to expect any Unit Commish to be at monthly unit committee meetings. Considering that most unit commissioners are part of their own unit, it would be impossible if not very inconvenient. One of our den leaders, for example, is also a unit commish. How reasonable would it be to expect her to conduct three den meetings, attend our pack committee meeting, pack meeting, monthly roundtable, monthly unit commissioners meeting -- and then three more pack committee meetings? All of that said, did no one at this pack let anyone know what was going on? Did people just disappear? I find it very difficult to place any responsiblity with a unit commish when 60 members (and conceivably 120 adults) were there to report trouble. Of all those people. . . no one called your council to complain? Where was the DE? The DE gets PAID for keeping those numbers. If I were the DE in that district, I can assure you I would show my face around the bigger packs once in a while (like all of our successful DEs have done). Is your DE just. . . AWOL? It's always sad to hear about a pack folding. I hope at least some of the boys went elsewhere. I also hope that when your district resurrects this pack (and they will), they do not count on a district commish to keep it together in between showing up at two other packs' meetings all the time. Good luck to ya'll.