SR540Beaver

King Ding Dong, as I stated yesterday, the rules have changed on adult nominations. There has never been an effort to “limit†adults. The OA is a youth run organization and is designed for youth. Adults are advisers and nothing more. Adults nominated for the OA are approved by the Lodge basically on the merits of what they bring to the table in the way of resources to enable the youth. For many an adult, that means providing transportation. Don’t get me wrong, an adult still needs to meet most of the same requirements as a youth and it is still an honor to be nominated and we have all the rights and privileges of membership other than voting rights, but our purpose is different. Functioning correctly, the elected Lodge Chief and his Vice Chiefs run the Lodge. They hold regular Lodge Executive Committee meetings where they discuss business and make decisions. All Lodge functions such as Ordeals, Fellowships, camp service, etc, are planned and run by boys. Each boy in leadership has an adult adviser and when done correctly, that is all they do…..advise. It is not up to the adults to run anything. It is up to the adults to assist and provide support where needed. Adults are needed. On work days where we provide service to camps and are clearing brush, putting up fence, setting up tents, etc, it is the adults who can provide trucks, trailers, tools, etc to execute the plans the boys made. I don’t “know†of any nominated adult in my Lodge who has ever been denied. But simply selecting Joe Blow in your troop for membership in the OA because it would be a nice thing to do to honor him and get him a pocket flap to wear and knowing he has no intent of ever supporting the program is the wrong way to go. If an adult is nominated, the Lodge does have expectations that he will support the work of the Lodge. I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating it is as an Adviser to see adults nominated, complete their Ordeal and then never, ever see them again. Why is that frustrating? Because if they aren’t coming, the boys in their units aren’t coming either and they are missing out on a whole different level of scouting and leadership opportunities that would enhance their experience. We need adults, but it makes sense to limit it to adults who will be active.

jrush, you are correct about the unit committee nominating adults and the lodge approving them. That is the correct method for bringiing adults into OA. However, the number allowed has changed with this year. A non-OA SM with at least a year in the job is an automatic nomination. Beyond that, they can nominate 1 adult for each 3 youth elected. Seems crazy I know. I didn't like it at first. Still don't know if I do. The thinking is that many youth are not completing their Ordeal because the adult OA members in their units are not supporting them and making sure they get there. So to "remedy" that, they will increase the number of adults nominated each year to help ensure there are adult drivers to the Ordeal. I will say that having been a Chapter Adviser, there was no way I could provide transporation for the 30 or so boys in my district that were elected each year and they rarely had active OA adults in their units. Parents were not going to drive 2.5 hours one way on Friday night to deliver their son to camp and then turn around and go home and repeat it on Sunday. The solution we came up with a couple of years ago was to rent a school bus and charge $10 for a ride to camp and back. It did increase our number of boys completing their Ordeal. Even had some adults ride.

Just like Wood Badge, an NYLT Course is limited to 48 participants. If they had over 100 youth there, they were running multiple courses. The Scouts killed by a tornado in 2008 at Little Sioux Scout Ranch in Iowa were at NYLT and also mentioned well over 100 boys in attendance. Either the journalists are getting it wrong or the council is running two courses at the same time. I can guarantee you about 99.9% that the region and national do not allow courses over the maximum. In our council we run two course a year on seperate dates. We don't have the facilities to run two programs at once on the same property. I suppose it could be done by having both course share meal time in the dining hall as long as you have facilities enough for troop and patrol meetings and camp sites in different locations. But they would have to adhere to a pretty strict schedule to share meals. Edited to add. Following the Iowa tornado, our council built storm shelters at all of our resident camp facilities.

I was the Chapter Adviser up until the beginning of this year. Our Chapter did crossover ceremonies for the Packs in our District that requested them. There was a good amount of confusion from Cubbers regarding the difference between an AOL ceremony and a crossover ceremony. We were often asked to provide an AOL. I always explained that AOL is a Cub Scout recognition and needs to be handled by the pack. If they would like for us to come handle a crossover ceremony, we'd be happy to see if it fits into our schedule and accommodate you. Now, the vast majority of our crossovers were done at B&G's and the AOL was done by the pack before we did their crossover. Occasionally they were scheduled seperately or outdoors at a troop campout. Now, that was how things were in our district. One of our neighboring districts/chapters had a crossover ceremony, an AOL ceremony and a hybrid AOL/crossover ceremony. That often added to the confusion because their Cubbers talked to our Cubbers. We always maintained that AOL is a Pack event. My biggest concern as a Chapter Adviser was burnout by my ceremonialists. As ceremonialists, their real function is to do OA ceremonies. The crossovers were done as a courtesy and just a good "business practice". Those Cub Scouts are future OA members. The concern for burnout was that when we were invited to do a crossover at a B&G, they always generously offered to feed the team. Of course, the dinner was at the beginiing and the ceremony was at the very end. In between was songs, skits, advancements, announcements and firends of scouting presentations. Our guys would sit in a dressing room for 1 to 2 hours waiting to do the ceremony. A few years ago, we did 5 ceremonies in a 9 day period. That was five "chicken dinners" and hours sitting in a dressing room. They get tired of it and it has an effect on thier wanting to continue in ceremonies. I floated the idea last year and the current Chapter Adviser made it a reality this year. The chapter held a district wide crossover ceremony at a council property on the edge of town. It was an outdoor ceremony with a reception following in one of the camp facilities. The idea is that it helps seperate AOL from crossover, crossover from B&G where non Webelos parents dont really care about spending extra time watching it, it allows troops to set one date for their crossovers instead of multiple events and it allows the ceremony team to do one ceremony and be done so they can concentrate their practice on OA ceremonies. There was some grumbling, but those involved enjoyed it better than their individual pack ceremony from previous years and I think it will grow with time. BTW, this is how our district/chapter used to do crossovers up until about 10 years ago......so we are just returning to a previous tradition. Edited to add, another reason we went the district wide ceremony was because packs were asking us to do crossovers anywhere from November until May....which added to the burnout. We do Ordeal in May, so we need to be finished woorying about crossovers and concentrating on Ordeal long before May. Also, we didn't start practicing crossover until December, so going from November to May was becoming a burden. Another reason to do it district wide was an attempt to get Packs to begin crossing over boys on a more uniform schedule. Having been an ASM for the NSP for several years, it always presented difficulties getting some boys in January, some in February, some in March, etc. The troops really need to have a boy in for a few months to get used to the troop and boy scout camping rather than throwing them immediately into a wek long summer camp.

The first year my son went to summer camp, he and a bunch of other new scouts took the fishing MB. It wasn't until Wednesday evening that we adults found out that the counselor had not been doing his job. He played cards during class time and would point to the poles in the corner of the training space and tell them they were free to take on and go fishing if they wanted to. Of course we complained to the camp director. Honestly, I don't know if the kid was fired or reprimanded. As you might guess, when we got the rocords, the boys all had partials. Here is how the SM handled it. He took the boys aside and said a scout is trustworthy. Your blue sheet shows that you accomplished these specific requirements. If you feel like you did, I'll accept that with no questions asked. If you feel like you didn't then we will work within the troop to accomplish these requirements. Each boy stepped up and said that he did not do any of the things he had been signed off on and ripped his sheet in half. It was the honorable thing to do. Later in a different troop when I became the ASM for the NSP, I ,made it a point to have adults shadow the new scouts to MB classes at least the first couple of days. Older scouts know the ropes that the new guys have no clue about.

Strange, the course curriculum is built around the patrol and includes camping, cooking, first aid, pioneering, orienteering, hiking, etc. Are their "classroom" sessions that involve leadership skills like communicating, planning, etc.? Why yes there is, but we did as many as possible by individual patrol and let them pick an outdoor location(s) to hold them. It's all "in the book" and a course director takes a pledge to present the material as designed.

We really need to leave Wood Badge and NYLT out of the discussion of why a kid won’t step up to be SPL for a Jambo troop. Those training courses really aren’t going to determine who or why someone takes the position. Having been an ASM for two Jamborees and sitting on the current Jambo committee, I think I have enough experience to speak intelligently on the subject. Depending on the size of the council, here is the truth of the matter, it doesn’t lend itself to being very boy led. The council forms a committee who in turn puts out the word for adult leadership. We basically take applications from interested parties and conduct interviews. From that we select the adult leadership. In conjunction with the council’s recruiting efforts, the adult leadership is tasked with recruiting. Much further down the line once boys have signed up, you begin to hold monthly meetings. Depending on your council, you could have boys in your troop from one end of the state to the other. The only time they have to meet and get to know one another is at their monthly troop meeting. You may have as many as 10 and as few as 6, again depending on a lot of variables within your council and availability of youth and adults. Travel arrangements, gear and a lot of other considerations are going to be determined at the council level with the contingent committee and adult leadership. The main task of the youth leadership is going to be organizing the makeup of the patrols and team building exercises and then herding cats during travel and touring. A Jambo troop is nothing like a regular chartered troop back home. It just isn’t. You can still try to make it is as boy led as possible……and we do……and as much like your home troop, but you can’t duplicate it exactly. Your adult leadership can come from four different troops and four different districts and your youth can be from even more troops and districts. You have a wide variety of troop traditions melding together and a lot of youth and adults feeling their way thru the whole process with a short amount of quality time to get it done. THAT is where I would say having NYLT youth and WB adults speaking the same language would most likely come into play. It CAN provide a commonality to work from. But the youth you have are kids whose parents plopped down the money to go and you are dealing with having to get to know them on a very limited time table. Until you get to know them, you don’t know what their availability or abilities are. You may have a kid who is SPL of his troop as well as OA Chapter Chief and a summer camp staffer who really doesn’t want to become Jambo SPL in addition to his other responsibilities. Then throw church and sports in and he is spread even further. Expecting him to take the position because he went to NYLT and they teach servant leadership can be short sighted. You have to look at the forest instead of the tree. I’m through rambling for now. I think.

Yes, some will desire it and some will rise to the occasion. For every kid that does step up and take that leadership position so the scouting activity can occur, there are more that didn't step up to it. NYLT exposes a youth to the concepts and gives them practical application during the course. Saying "so much for servant leadership taught at NYLT" is still short sighted. It isn't a magic bullet that transforms every kid that walks thru the door. We hope it changes their life, but it is largely up to them what they do with what they are taught. If you have no one wanting to step up to be Jambo SPL, then it is time to select those you think would be best and sit down with them and have a one on one of why you need them on your leadership team.

Having been an NYLT Course Director this past fall, I can assure you that the "troop method" is not taught.

As I said, some will desire it and rise to the occasion and some won't. Servant leadership doesn't mean a doormat. It's a choice. I don't know any scouters.....even among the most dedicated....who will do any and everything requested of them. We all have boundaries and boys are no different. Do you really want a boy as your Jambo SPL who doesn't want the job? Do you think he'll be good at it? Do you think he should accept the position simply based on the fact that he attended a training course that teaches servant leadership? Do you think he "gets it" just because he attended and was exposed to it? I've worked with a good number of boys on camp staff, training staff, the troop, the OA chapter and the OA lodge and the only constant I've noticed is that you never get what you expect. Some that you see a ton of potential in turn out disappointing. Others that you think wouldn't do a good job will blow your socks off. Expecting boys to take a job just because it needs filling and they have been to NYLT and therefore SHOULD do it is going about it the wrong way. It will probably take building a relationship with them and doing some mentoring.

I was a Jambo ASM in 2005 and 2010. Regardless of a boy's service record in his troop or OA as well as whether or not he has been to NYLT......he is going to Jambo to have fun. Having to help herd 35 other scouts as young as 12 years old thru airports, tour buses, restaurants, etc and then make sure they are pulling their weight in camp has limited appeal. There are some who desire it and will rise to the occasion, but there will be more who look at it as a vacation and fun time. Right, wrong or indifferent, that is just the truth of the matter. Judging the value of NYLT by who will step up to Jambo leadership and forego the fun is a little short sighted.

I don't know, but I'd say someone is doing something wrong. Our council does two course per year and we always fill both courses. I was the course director last fall, so I sit on our NYLT committee and see our feedback from participants. Literally, all of the feedback we have received from youth and adult volunteers has been positive.

Would you ever recommend to one of your youth to NOT go to NYLT because it would be a waste of their time? Basically it is the same material as WB. If you think it would benefit them, why do you doubt it would benefit you?

About as often as discussions of sexuality come up........next to never.

Putting on my mod hat for a minute, I'm not going to alter or delete anything in this thread. That being said, this isn't the politics forum and we need to be mindful of the Oath and Law regarding the language we use.

I attended the last two Jamborees as an ASM and I'm on my Council's Jambo committee for this Jambo. Please keep in mind that there are 10's of thousands of participants and staff attending and calling national......regardless of how frustrated you are.....probably isn't going to get you the results you desire in the time frame you expect. I'd go thru the Jambo SM first who will talk to the Jambo committee chair or the council professional assigned to the committee. This professional can find and contact someone at national much quicker than you can. If you think you must, then do an end run around your SM and call the chair or professional directly.

qwazse, I deleted your duplicate thread for you.

Good read. The ABS posted on facebook this weekend about the challenges that Baptist indivduals and charters will face in light of the change. I posted my thoughts which were not popular with some of my Baptist brethern. I did post the link here on the facebook page because it states more eloquently what I was trying to say. That it comes from the ABS past president will hopefully carry more weight than my thoughts.

The speed seems.......

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LOL.......this was a thread started by me in 2005 as a fairly new ASM in a newly minted troop. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. My son earned Eagle in Dec 2010 and aged out in Feb 2011 and is a sophomore in college now. I was nominated and he was elected to OA and we both became very involved. In fact, I spent the last 3 years as a Chapter Adviser and began this year as an Associate Lodge Adviser. My son and I received Vigil honor together. He served in chapter and lodge offices and was on the chapter ceremony team until he left for college. Today, I could easily answer my question from 2005.

Rest in peace OGE. I trust you'll have fresh camp coffee waiting for us when we reach the end of the trail.

I can't speak to the slow resolution of the issues we are having as I am not privy to what is being done and by whom. What I can tell you is that the product the forums was moved to is vBulletin which is a standard in the bulletin board world. I am a member of other boards that use this software and they work flawlessly. I don't think it is the software at all, but the implementation.

He is pretty spot on in that column.

If a mere 2% cut to increased spending can bring the government to its knees, then we are in great trouble! All Americans took a 2% hit at the beginning of the year with the expiration of the payroll tax cut. If we can do it, surely the government can survive. Obama did his best with the old "Firemen First" scare mongering, but almost every claim he and his administration have made in recent weeks has been debunked. Look, out here in the business world, we are used to management giving us 15% budget decreases for the coming year.......multiple years in a row. The idea that 2% is going to cause worlds to collide and dogs and cats to sleep together is laughable. The White House has admitted that they came up with the sequester idea. Obama said he would veto any attempts to change it. In May of last year and then again in December, the House passed bills to replace the sequester as signed into law by Obama. The Senate didn't take up either bill. Obama rejected the offer to decide how the spending cuts would be allotted. With time getting closer and closer, Obama didn't lift a finger to meet with Congress and try to avert the sequester until the day after the deadline. I know the press is going to blame the Republicans and a large majority of America will believe what they are told. But the historical truth is out there and is easily obtainable. People need to look hard at how this whole thing came to be. What kind of leadership does it show for a president to resort to suggesting a plan that is so bad to both sides that they might be forced to come up with something better......when they were unable to to begin with. There is an old saying of, "be careful what you wish for, you might get it". Most of us learn by our teen years to be a little more judicial in taking punitive action or making threats we can't back up. Evidently our president hasn't learned that lesson and here we are.