SR540Beaver

Heard one of my state's Representatives on the radio this morning saying that he often goes to the Jefferson Memorial at night to do his reading. He says they have 3 staff people at most on site. They had 7 guards turning people away. Figure that one out. It's Obama's punitive political theatre. It's like a little kid with a scratch flailing on the floor and wailing that his arm is cut off.

KDD, Republicans know exactly where the money comes from.......the little guy's pocket. That's why they want to reduce your taxes and cut bloated government spending. Democrats want to increase both. Think about this the next time you are at the ballot box, do you want to give up more of your hard earned money or be able to keep more? It really is that simple.

Heard a business owner on a local talk radio program say yesterday that he doesn't understand the non-essential thing. He said that he only hires essential staff. If they are non-essential, he doesn't hire them.

One can always tell non-Baptists by such statements as "protestant church". http://christianityinview.com/protestant/denominations.html The Baptist denominations are generally considered to lie within Protestantism, though some argue that the practice of "believers baptism" i.e Baptism on confession of faith by the candidate preceeds the Reformation and therefore Baptist churches should not be grouped in this manner. http://www.baptistbasics.org/baptists/b007.php .....First, let's define what a Protestant is. The Protestant movement began during the time of the Reformation in the 1500's. These groups "protested" certain doctrines and practices in the Catholic church. Among the things they protested were the sale of Indulgences, salvation by works, and papal authority. At first most of these groups sought to reform the Catholic church, not separate from it. A couple of groups that can truly be called Protestant include: •Lutherans, who began under the leadership and direction of Martin Luther. •Episcopalians, who began when Henry VIII started the Church of England after not having a divorce granted by the Pope. These groups are truly Protestant in that they protested the Catholics and would go on to start their own denominations. Now with these fact in mind, let us address the question at hand: Are Baptists Protestant? Baptists have a long heritage of disagreement with the Catholic church. As ecclesiastical hierarchies began to form and submit to the leadership at Rome, there were groups who remained independent. They spoke against such errors that had entered into that growing organization such as baptismal regeneration. It is from these groups which have always been separate from Roman Catholicism that are forefathers to the modern Baptist movement. Although Baptists have disagreed with Rome, they have never been a part of the Catholic church. Nowhere in their history can they be found to be part of or in alliance with Rome. They have always been independent..........

Yep, that's it!

I have no beef with the LDS as part of the BSA. Here locally, there are not that many Mormon churches and the units are very small. In fact, some have consolidated in order to have a viable unit. They do not participate in district or council events or the OA. I can't really speak to training, but I suspect they don't participate much in that either. Part of the issue I believe is that many of the registered leaders in an LDS unit are not volunteers, but voluntold by their bishop that they were selected for the job. That being said, I do know a few LDS scouters in my council who have a true love for scouting. One in particular has staffed a couple of WB courses, runs our IOLS program and has staffed at least the last 3 Jambos.....and he doesn't even have Boy Scout aged children yet. Another LDS scouter I know went as one of our ASM's to Jambo this year. But for the most part, I've never laid eyes on most of our LDS scouters. A side note and persnoal observation. Many....not all.....but many of the instances we've seen in national news where a youth has died on an outing or became lost, come from LDS units. I personally believe that the reason for this is again because the adults are voluntold to take their position and that they do not willingly participate in available training or in district and council opportunities where they can network and discuss topics with other scouters.

I'll second Barry's comment. I guess my son could be called a deathbed Eagle. He earned Eagle at 17 years and 10 months after earning Eagle at 14. Why the delay? He was busy being a PL, ASPL, SPL, TG and JASM. He served on camp staff for two years as well as two NYLT staffs. He attended Philmont, Northern Tier, backpacked the Pecos Wilderness and attended a second Jambo (first was when he was 12 in 2005) where he served as SPL. He held two OA Chapter leadership positions, did OA elections and ceremonies and held an OA Lodge leadership position. He was also named District SPL and District Boy Scout of the Year. Once he turned 16 and had a job, he couldn't attend the monthly campouts or summer camp, but he never missed a troop meeting all the way up to his 18th birthday. Typically, the "motivated" 13 year old Eagles got there checking of a list and when they arrive, they (and their parents) feel they have hit the end of the trail and move onto other things because there is "nothing else" to achieve. They lose what had them motivated. But hey, it'll look good on the resume. They are concerned with the destination, not the journey and they missed out on the best part of the trip.

As long as all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed and the boy has actually fulfilled the list of requirements, he technically is qualified to earn Eagle. That being said, he is going to be viewed by most people as a technical Eagle, right or wrong. An Eagle with an asterisk beside his name. He may be an Eagle, but he isn't old enough to staff camp. He isn't going to be tapped to serve on an NYLT course or be a course leader. He won't be considered a serious candidate if he were to run for Lodge Chief if he is in OA. Heck, depending on just how young we are talking here, he may not even be eligible to attend a High Adventure base. Etc., etc., etc. He doesn't have the time, breadth, depth and maturity that most people will expect of an Eagle. I never, ever want to squash a boy's desire or spirit. that being said, an SM needs to have a sit down with a boy's parents and the boy as well and have a long discussion. There is the destination.......and there is the journey. The journey is far more important to becoming an Eagle than the destination is. A good SM will channel the boy's ambitions back into the troop instead of simply obtaining a rank. A good SM will convince the boy of how very important the journey is in relation to the rank. Just my two cents.

Well I thought I'd be clever and search images on Google and link to a picture of one. Guess what, can't find one. A Google search did take me to this document on the BSA website, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33066_Section2.pdf. It lists the pin without a picture and even gives an item number. I went to scoutstuff and entered the item number. Nothing. It is bronze and it is rectangular'ish. The corners are not square. It's massive compared to the Eagle mentor pin. Not sure where the young lady who presented me with one got it. We do have an national scout shop in our council. Maybe it is old stock. Now I'm even prouder to have it as it appears to be a rare find!!! LOL

NAE, you are correct that the patrol does not transition from a patrol to a crew. My bad. Venturing is modeled by the Troop Guides who go thru an induction ceremony on the night of day four I believe. But the course does indeed touch on Venturing and one path for that is the use of Venturing youth during the second weekend. As far as what your CD said, I have a hard time believing that. I've staffed 4 WB course, one of which I was backup CD and staffed 2 NYLT courses. I was backup CD on one and CD on the other. I've attended 2 Course Director Development Conferences which are required to be a CD and for the council to hold a course. If you don't send someone who has been approved, you will not hold a course. They don't allow wiggle room on that. That is where you stand in front of everyone at the conference and take the pledge verbally and also sign in writing that you WILL follow the syllabus as written. It's an honor thing of course, but if Regional and/or National who has to approve council courses were to discover that your council were not adhering to the pledge and syllabus, they would not allow another course until that was corrected. It actually IS a very BIG thing to BSA. They allow for local traditions and flavor, but do not allow doing your own thing.

qwazse, I have no idea the percentage of courses across the country that actually use Venturers. My council never has. I'm willing to bet many others don't. It's hard enough to do the staff development with the staff. It would be even tougher to bring additional people (youth with the kind of schedules they have) into the mix and train them for just a small portion they would have. It adds a layer of complexity to the process. Now, that's not saying it's a bad idea, just that it can make things more difficult than a volunteer Course Director wants to fool with. I'll add another wrinkle to the complexity. In MY council, we have some guy who is in charge or "talent". A WB or NYLT CD doesn't just get to name the people they want. They can suggest. They can give a list. But all staffing for course has to run through a series of people as well as this talent guy to get people approved to staff........and that's just approval to ask them to staff. If you get turned down, you go back thru the process again. I always counsel new CD's to make an A, B and C list and get names approved all at once so thatwhen people turn you down, you still have others to ask. Adding a youth component to the course just makes for a bigger list and more approvals.

During the portion of WB where you become a crew instead of a patrol, the syllabus allows for either your Troop Guide (who started out as your Den Leader) to become your Crew Adviser or to allow actual Venturers to come in and present material. I think that is what happened on your course. 14 year olds are not allowed to attend the course as participants. Part of the Course Director's job is filing a number of reports with national as well as taking a pledge to run the course by the book and not deviate from it. Your council would not be allowed to conduct a WB course if 14 year olds were registered participants.

Of course, then there are Eagle Scouts who become lawyers..........

We've all seen those people. Everything they do is an ego trip, not just WB. Anthony Weiner comes to mind. Me personally, I can find much easier and cheaper ways to stroke my ego than using vacation days to take a course from sunup to sundown, while living in a tent and cooking on a coleman stove. I guess it just depends on how big someone's ego is. Again, Anthony Weiner comes to mind. LOL

I know a young man who took WB at 18. He was registered and trained as an ASM in the troop he was a youth at. Worked his ticket, got his beads. This past fall at the age of 19, he was my course leader on my NYLT course and did a fantastic job. He has also staffed Kodiak. Technically, a Venturing youth can attend NYLT up until 21, but we encourage them to attend WB instead. It's difficult enough to arrange tentage with the wide age range and coed nature of NYLT. A 19 or 20 year old Venturer in college will more likely enjoy attending WB with adults than dealing with 13 year old patrol members in NYLT.

The two adults at all times is one of those scouting myths we talk about from time to time. When I was our OA Chapter Adviser, I had an SM who wouldn't drive the 4 boys from his troop to the Ordeal because he didn't have a second adult to come with him. If it's a single boy, you need a second adult. If it is multiple boys, you do not. No one on one. As long as you have "witnesses" who can say you were never alone with a boy, you're good. That's why the old school way of MB's (non-class setting) is to have a buddy.

Oh good grief....the much maligned EDGE method has always been a part of the scouting culture and methods. The only thing different is that someone decided to formalize it with an acronym and emphasize it as a program element because it has always been an effective tool. It's simply teaching a skill and passing it down from scout to scout. Nothing more.

No, it isn't. I'm not even sure the moderators can do it. It would probably take an admin.

JoeBob, you are correct regarding it not being immediately apparent that 441 is a youth. However, simply because a fellow member is 51 instead of 15, that doesn't give us license to suspend applying the oath and law in our dealings with them. A little latitude is afforded in the Issues & Politics forum. This ain't it. We have a youth with questions who needs help. Lets give it in a polite manner.

dhendron, from the little bit of snooping I've done on the interwebs, it appears that there are some councils with a Venturing Mentor position. From what I looked at, it appears to be much like the Commissioner role in Boy Scouts. http://www.fiverivers.org/venturing/mentors/mentor_overview_and_agreement_sheet.pdf http://www.fiverivers.org/venturing/committee/mentor_profile_sheet.pdf http://www.scoutstuff.org/venturing-mentor-emblem.html

Putting on my moderator hat here. I am at work and I don't have the time or the inclination to read thru this whole thread as I've already seen enough unscoutlike behavior in the first few posts to warrant a comment. Eagle is a youth. The rest of you are adults. Do you talk to your youth the way you are talking to Eagle? I certainly hope not. Constructive criticism is exactly that.....constructive. Boorish behavior is not constructive. Here is the deal. EDIT your posts to make them more helpful, friendly, courteous, kind and cheerful. I'm a big believer in free speech and I am loathe to delete, censor or modify anyone's posts. But posting here is a privilege and not a right. Members of this community will abide by the oath and law or they can find a different forum to post in. Like grandma used to say, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

dhendron, that's an interesting question. But to me, it would be/should be like an Eagle mentor pin. I can't see such a pin being something that you fulfill requirements to be awarded. Someone either considers you their mentor or doesn't and uses it to recognize your contribution to their life. We have plenty of awards and knots that come with requirements. Mentor isn't one of them.

Now you're talking!

I realize that each unit has it's own traditions and cultures......but I don't understand how something like this could happen. That is not meant as an affront to soon2beagle. I come from a large troop with an SM that is retiring in a month after 13 years. His new job is the District EBOR Coordinator. He's the perfect guy for it. He's an engineer and he like very precise, well oiled machines that purr like a kitten. A place for everything and everything in its place. Because we have had very inconsistent EBOR's in the past in our district, we developed a whole Life to Eagle support system in our troop. We are boy led and all of the work is up to the boy to do. the kinds of things we do is that when the boy is ready to approach Eagle, he has a visit with the SM to discuss the idea. With 13 years as an SM and over 50 Eagles, the SM knows what will and will not be accepted as a project in our district. He knows what will and will not be accepted in the way of the write up. He mentors them thru the process. I remember when my son did his write up. The SM told him to do a draft and bring to the next meeting. When he got it, he told my son that when I give this back to you, it will have a bunch of red ink on it. Don't get upset, I'm helping you avoid the pitfalls I've seen too many kids fall into at EBOR's. 99% of the time, our guys sail thru their boards because they've been mentored all along the way. We had one kid who was ultra shy and avoided the SM....he avoided a lot of adults....who decided to do it himself without any help.If I recall, he did the initial BOR twice and the final 3 times. He cut far too many cornersand couldn't answer their questions. It as after the second final that he finally sought some guidance and finished. Eagle shouldn't be difficult and a boy should be able to take the workbook and complete it by himself. As long as well meaning registered adults don't get in the way, a boy could probably do it easily. But unfortunately we all know some of those guys who sit on boards and don't know their backside from a hole in the ground or are on a power trip. WE got tired of good kids with good projects running into roadblocks and decided a good mentoring program was needed. So, coming from a culture where we mentor the boy, I don't understand how a 17.5 year old Life Scout could be so unfamilar with the process.......but each unit is individual.