SR540Beaver

Papa, that was said in jest......but for those who don't live 24/7 in a humid climate, they end up wondering why anyone finds it "desireable". I live in Oklahoma and we have our hot and humid days too. I sweat profusely, indoors in the air conditioning when it's humid. My inlaws live in New Mexico and I always love visiting because even when it's over 100, I don't sweat. Yes, I know it is simply vaporizing off of me skin, but it's much more comfortable and socially acceptable. As the saying goes, "it's a dry heat" and it does make a difference.

TwoCub, Thanks for both of your posts. Excellent stuff. I don't have too big of a problem with certain merit badges being taught at summer camp or the occasionally well run merit badge fair. But when given an inch, people tend to take a mile. What was occasional becomes the norm. Let's look at what the merit badge program was. People who knew a subject signed up to be MB counselors. They didn't even have to be an active scouter, just register as a MB counselor....and yes, that can still happen. But what happens in many troops is Bob is MBC for 15 different MB's and Joe is MBC for 10 different MB's and they teach them in class settings during troop meetings......or the troop just sends the boys to a merit badge fair if they don't have the resources. The old idea was that the council, district, unit maintianed a list of MBC's and when a boy was interested in taking an MB, he found a buddy interested in taking the same MB, they discussed it with his SM, got approval and a phone number to call the MBC. Then they had to call the MBC and set up a time, date and place to visit with the counselor. They do the work they discussed and bring it back for his approval. This did a number of things. First, it enforced "adult association". Second, it taught the boy valuable social skills in approaching new people, presenting himself and how to deal with others. This kind of skill comes in real handy when they go on a job interview, not to mention it teaches them something of about work ethic. When MB's get taught in scheduled, group settings where mom and dad sign you up and you go set in a classroom and churn out an MB in 4 hours so it can be checked off of a list for Eagle Scout, something gets lost in the whole idea behind the MB program. This program is little more than the summer camp Tenderfoot to First Class programs that troops have come to rely on because it's easier than having to develop the program yourself. Heck, if you run the kids thru a T21 program their first year and take the next year getting them thru star and life, you can send them to a program like this and pump out teams of 13 year old Eagles. It just depends on how motivated the parents are.

Scouter, Going to Jambo as a visitor will be a totally different experience from the past. Visitors will not be allowed inside the actual footprint of the Jambo or able to participate in anything participants do. This is a whole new model and one for the better for those who spent a large sum of money to do Jambo. There will be a visitor center where participants can come meet visitors and a Jambo lite experience can be had by visitors.

emb, Probably correct. I don't claim to be an expert on OA publications, but I don't recall any references to dance teams in what I've read. I'm sure there are some, I just have not run across them. Edited to add that I went back and looked at the Guide to Inductions and on page 33 there is guidance on not using dance "costumes" in place of ceremony costumes because their function is different (dance costumes are often noisy). That being said, there may be other official OA documents other than the Guide to Inductions that does indeed refer to dance regalia instead of dance costume.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Eagle92, For the record, we refer to it as regalia. At Fall Fellowship, we hold regalia workshops. By doing so, we have chosen NOT to follow OA policy. Here is the text from the Guide to Inductions I referenced earlier. "To begin this topic, lets focus on getting over the use of the word costume. You may hear various sources or see in print the clothing being worn while performing ceremonies spoken of as outfit, costume, attire, regalia, native clothing, native garb, or other terms. These all mean roughly the same thing but can be confusing to inexperienced persons. After consulting with a number of Native Americans, the National Order of the Arrow Committee set the policy that, in order to be consistent in its terminology, the Order will use the term costume and its derivatives, such as costuming, when referring to the clothing worn while performing Order of the Arrow ceremonies." OA's policy seems to be that true Native Americans wear regalia while OA ceremonialists and dancers who are imitating Native Americans do not. So as not to insult them, we are to use the term costume......but old habits die hard as evidenced by both of us using the term regalia within the OA.

I remember just a few short years ago when the BSA was soliciting suggestions of places to purchase as a permanent home for the Jamboree. Having attended two of them at Fort AP Hill, I had my opinions of where it should move. For me, Virginia was just too dang humid and the heat was one notch this side of hell.....and I live in Oklahoma! Once you started sweating, you sweat until its time to come home. I was thinking somewhere like Colorado. Nice scenery, nice dry air, cool tempertures. Not to mention, Colorado borders Oklahoma, so it's an easy trip for us. Then the Bechtel's had to go and donate the largest gift ever given to BSA and the rest is history. One doesn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Bottom line, anywhere you place the Jambo is always going to be a burden to someone. It always going to be close to some and far away for others. Even putting it in the middle of the country (which I would have loved) would have been a trip for folks from the four corners of the nation.

BD, I know a couple of guys in our OA Lodge you'd want to stay away from. Patch traders! And I don't use the term lightly. They can spend hours telling you about each and every patch and when they were made and how much they're worth. They have boxes and boxes and boxes in their collection. They love the bling. We have a number of one armed scouters in our council who chewed their own arms off to get away from these guys. If youy ever have a patch you need to design, they will be more than happy to give you several hours of schooling in what makes a good and tradable patch. Heck, they'll even offer to design it for you.

I hate to break it to you guys, but the OA Guide to Inductions explains on page 7 of Appendix 13 that the correct term is "costume". That being said, all of our Chapter owned regalia resides at this Chapter Advsier's house just like it did with the Adviser before me and will with the one taking over from me next year.

The only official WB "regalia" is the taupe necker, the leather woggle and the beads. Yes, you also have the woggle you make (our council uses red) and the tartan necker you wear during the course and while working your tickets. Anything else is extra. Our courses supply a hat and t-shirt as part of your fee, but that is no different from buying a hat and t-shirt at summer camp. The WB trading post run by our WB committee does take orders for all sorts of WB and WB critter pins and patches. Around here, some folks order them, but few wear them on their uniform. They would be considered temporary patches at best as you won't find anything in the insignia guide on where to place them on your uniform.

rhol, He'll have to get to the point where he is OK with a pump to be happy with it. In my younger days, I resisted being "attached to a machine" 24/7. Once I did it, I've never had any desire to go back. A pump offers so much better consistency and makes your lifestyle darn near normal. You can skip meals, have cake and ice cream at a party, etc. But the person wearing it has to understand it and use it responsibly. As far as the cost of Jambo, $1,500 isn't all that bad. Our council is $1,500 for 2013 which is a darn sight better than the $3,000 price tag we charged in 2010.

Campsite selection is one of requirements for T21 rank advancement. Be prepared is the motto. For the months most prone to bad weather, we have a backup location in our plans......but we have cancelled for things like 2 inches of ice on the road or cut a campout short when freezing rain and sleet was destroying tents.

E92, BSA still defines the Cub program as a 9 month program and produces resources toward that end. They do recognize that some Packs chose to make the program year round though. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Leaders/DenLeaderResources/DenandPackMeetingResourceGuide/Overview.aspx That being said, they do have the Summertime Pack Award to help keep boys active thru the summer. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/home/cubscouts/cub%20scouts/uniformsandawards/denpack.aspx National Summertime Pack Award A pack can earn the National Summertime Pack Award by doing three pack activities when school is out for the summerone activity each in June,July, and August. Packs that qualify get a colorful streamer for their packflag. Dens that have at least half of their members at the three summer pack events can earn a den ribbon. Pack members who take part in all three events are eligible for the National Summertime Pack Award pin, to wear on the right pocket flap of their uniform. If a pack is in a "year-round school" (or is part of a home-school association), the pack could earn the Summertime Pack Award by having a special pack activity during school breaks.

I'm an insulin dependent diabetic that uses a pump and I did the 2005 and 2010 Jamborees with no issue. Of course, I was 48 and 53 at the time. It really depends on the boy and how well he understands his condition and actually takes responsibility for it. Jamboree as opposed to say Philmont or Northern Tier isn't as demanding physically and medical care is literally minutes away anywhere you are at.

Mom. Not around here as far as I know, but I left Cubs in 2004. We were a very active Pack and always worked to earn the Summertime Pack Award. We encouraged and supported our district daycamp and Cub resident camp. We had one or two get togethers like a cookout and swim party over the summer, but we did not do Den or Pack meetings. The program just isn't designed that way. Perhaos that is why we keep seeing so many threads about crossing 9 to 10 year old, 4th grade Webelos I's who have already earned their AOL over to Boy Scouts. What's the rush? Recruit in August during the school orientation night, kick off in September and hold graduation to the next rank in May. Take the summer off and go to resident camp.

In the troop I serve, we have a large number of adults who attend......but we are a large troop and we may drive 2 hours or more to camp some months. When our SM took over the troop 10 years ago, he had to literally BEG a second adult to go on the campout and that was late on Thursday night. His opinion now is that he never wants to be in that position again, so ass many parents who want to go, can. Now, we are boy led and we use the patrol method and new parents are schooled in staying away from little Timmy's campsite for the weekend. The adults function as a patrol in their own site with a duty roster and pay the same amount for food as the boys. We lead by example. My personal opinion is that I'd like it to just be the SM and ASM's on the campouts. However, when you have 40 boys going on a campout, just the SM and ASM's isn't very practical. Adults are welcome as long as they understand they are there to provide transportaion and then enjoy a weekend sitting in their camp chair in the adult area while their son scouts.

AJR, If your troop is already doing a Canadian canoe trip, I wouldn't necessarily worry about getting them to one of the HA bases. At least you are doing your own HA which is much more than most troops do. That being said, if you are doing a canoe trek every other year, why aren't you doing it thru NT if you are wanting guys to do BSA HA bases? You do know that most councils have HA contingents each summer that your boys could take advantage of if your troop can't muster a trip. For your guys who are in OA, they have the cheapest opportunity of any BSA member to attend the HA bases. If they will go work a trail crew at Philmont or work on portages at NT, they can custom buid a week long trek and the total cost (minus transportation there and back) is $200. What a bargain! My other suggestion is check out the council calendar when it comes time to do the troop's annual planning. Sceduling the troop activities away from council dates like NYLT might help open the door to boys taking advantage of those kinds of programs. Again, we lead by example. If an adult can help inspire the first kid to become an active OA member, attend NYLT, etc......the rest will follow that boy and the culture becomes alive.

Cubs basically follows the 9 month school year with a few Pack activities encouraged over the summer months. Why were you going whole hog on advancement thru the summer?

AJR2305GDC, While I'm a big supporter of boy run, ADULTS are often the gateway to all things good and wonderful that scouting has to offer. I've been a Jamboree ASM, staffed WoodBadge and NYLT and serve as an OA Chapter Adviser. I can't tell you how many troops out there have SM's who simply won't respond at the least and flat refuse you at the worst. It often tends to be about them and the amount of time they can or will dedicate to scouting. We lead by example. In the troop I serve, our adults attend Wood Badge. As a result of that, we support and promote NYLT. For the third Jambo running, two of our adults are serving as an SM and ASM for Jambo. WE have at least a dozen boys in the troop signed up. Our unit does a high adventure trip each year that the SM participates in along with a one or two other adults. OA is a no brainer as our SM is Vigil as are his two sons. It wasn't always that way, but it has been for a decade or so because our adults get trained, know what scouting has to offer, signs up for it themselves and leads by example. It only takes getting one boy to participate in something and come back and tell his buddies what a great time he had for something to go viral. Since I've been involved in many of these things and recruited for all of them, I could tell you a lot of stories. I'll just leave you with one. There is a troop that we've been trying to get let us do an OA election. Their story is always, "our boys just aren't interested". Lo and behold, one of their boys is at the Merit Badge Fair or troop conducts and one of my Associate Advisers get approached by a kid asking questions about his lodge flap. The boy tells him that he'd really like to be in the OA, but the leaders have told them the OA won't come do an election for them. Now, I realize that YOU want the boys to do all of these things and are frustrated that they don't. That is becausethat has been the troop culture since they have been involved. Adults need to make them aware od what is out there and get involved themselves to change that culture. Crack the dam and the flood will start.

Around here, Webelos is a 1.5 year program with Cubs crossing over at Blue and Gold in February. We have a few Packs that put it off until March. I know some here will disagree with it, but crossing them in the February to March time frame gets them acclimated to the troop prior to summer camp. Sending newly crossed Scouts to summer camp in June as their very first campout can be tough on them. Not all as some will thrive on it, but for those who were iffy when they crossed over, sending them a couple of hundred miles away for a week of camp without benefit of knowing the boys in the troop or having any camping experience can cause them to leave.

https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/Staff.aspx https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Pages/Staff-Position-Description.aspx

I think the main thing working against Venturing is the demographic you are trying to reach. 14 to 21 year old boys and girls with emerging independence and added responsibilities find it difficult to dedicate themselves to something new.......even if it is fun. They tend to stick with things they've been involved with in the past like their troop, sports or church youth group. Even those things suffer with a job. College of course is a game changer if they move away from home. I don't care how great the program is or can become, it's usually a struggle to get there given the changing dynamic of the demographic. It appears more fail than make it.

Baden, I understand the Venturing program and it's elements perfectly and I'm not anti-Venturing in any way. I'd love to see it grow and thrive. But I've watched them come and go. What I've typically observed was they were started to provide a program for girls. Some guys would join because they thought it would be cool to be in a program with girls. Then the guys realize that it means two meetings and two campouts and they are getting to an age where they work and they drop back to just the troop. Numbers dwindle, meetings get boring, they drop to once a month, they decide to go bowling or a movie instead of camping, they leave for college and the crew dies. Our council has poured a lot of time and energy into Venturing, even to the point of hiring a "DE" just for Venturing. While we have some very small, successful crews, success and growth just isn't the norm.

Oak Tree: "I just looked at the Campfire USA web site, and I can't figure out what it is that they do. They use an "outcome rich curriculum" and groups "choose from a variety of fun and educational activities and projects." You've got to have a mission." Not to hijack the thread, but it kind of sounds like Venturing doesn't it? Perhaps that is why it struggles to keep it's head above water. You don't have to have a uniform, you don't have to advance and you can base your Crew on whatever you want to base it on. Venturing is the anti-Boy Scout program for the folks who don't like the structure and rules of Boy Scouts. Venturing is the Seinfeld of Scouting. OK Venturers......let me have it.

"What law is he breaking?" Trustworthy That being said, I walked into our national run Scout shop a month or so back and found Brotherhood and Vigil sashes for sale on the shelf as well as copies of all the ceremonies. Anyone could walk up and buy these safeguared materials. I was there to get a Chapter Adviser patch for my uniform. Know what, the patch was held in a drawer behind the counter so people couldn't just pick them up in the store and purchase them. Do what? I asked the clerk if they were aware that the items on the shelf were safeguarded materials and her response was, "yeah, we've had other people tell us that before". I talked ot the Lodge Adviser wh otold me he was aware and when he had talked to the SE about iit, his only response was that the shop was run by national and there was nothing they could do about it. I emailed Natoopnal supply and never got a response. So, if national can sell safeguared items on their store shelves with no questions asked, I'm guessing "trustworthy" doesn't apply to Scout(er)s selling Eagle patches on eBay.

I've never been and I'd love to go. The Lodge Adviser and Lodge Chief challenged me and my Chapter Chief to recruit 10 people from our chapter to go. I'm lucky to have 10 show up at a Chapter meeting. I have a few entertaining the idea, but none who have signed up to my knowledge. I'm still contemplating as I have committed to staffing a summer and fall NYLT course and I'd like to use a little of my vacation as family time.