SR540Beaver

The four corners area of New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado and Utah. It'll be unlike anything back home.

Cheers!

Like it or not folks, a scout camp IS a business. Our Cub resident camp has had the same camp director and program director for at least the last 10 years. While they certainly have their challenges with Council allowing over bookings, not enough resources and sometimes being short on staff, it hums like a well oiled machine. It should. They have the experience and know all the tricks of the trade. On the other hand, our Boy Scout camp is on their fourth, fifth or possible sixth CD and PD over the last 10 years. For Boy Scout camp, the Council tended to assign the job to already overworked DE's. Sure they got paid, but they already had a job to worry over. We had one DE that was there either 2 or 3 years as CD and was beginning to turn the camp reputation around when they fired him. I never heard why. They hired a retired SCouter who lasted a year. This year they hired another Scouter who was unemployeed. Nice guy. Hope he lasts. While our Boy Scout camp has made great strides over the last 5 years or so (capital campaign certainly helped since the place was falling apart), it could certainly benefit by having a good management team in place from year to year for continuity and experience. I tend not to frequent businesses where the managment and staff seem to use a revolving door. Same for camp.

BadenP: ".......it is NOT open to any girl or open to any adult potential leader because they are not a US citizen. If you want to go on attacking me fine, I really could care less as you three in particular are really showing your own immaturity and ignorance as to what the AHG organization truly represents. Because the AHG emphasizes GOD in their program does not make it special or holy in any way since the god they represent certainly is not the GOD of the Bible, but a twisted interpretation of scripture that is plainly erroneous......." "Simply put the AHG is purely an evangelizing and proselityzing tool of an organization with a very twisted understanding of Christianity. It uses a few scoutlike trappings to attract young girls into their web of deception, but that does not make them a "scouting organization". Instead their racist and exclusionary policies make them nothing more than a "hate" group that claims it is Christian but in reality is anything but Christian." You have NOT backed up your claims with facts. You have stated your opinion repeatedly and ignored any requests for specifics. Your last sentence is a perfect example. Let me counter that with actual black and white print from their adult application form. http://www.americanheritagegirls.com/uploads/AdultVolInfoWithApp11.pdf "AHG is a Christ-centered scouting organization that recognizes the importance of religious faith yet leaves religious instruction to the members family and religious leaders. Members are not forced to participate in religious activities." "Girl membership in the organization shall be made available to all without regard to race, color, creed or national origin, under such rules and regulations, not in conflict with the provisions of the AHG Oath: I promise to love God, cherish my family, honor my country and serve in my community, and the Purpose and the Basic Policies of AHG." Mo one is "attacking" you. We are disagreeing with your unfounded personal opinions. You're the one getting your shorts in a bunch when someone challenges something you've said with facts.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

This is also in the adult registration form. "AHG is a Christ-centered scouting organization that recognizes the importance of religious faith yet leaves religious instruction to the members family and religious leaders. Members are not forced to participate in religious activities."

OGE, yes. From what was posted in the original thread, the OLD adult registration form basically said you had to be an American citizen. That has since changed to include resident aliens. Some anti-AHG folks still want to cling to the obsolete form to prove a point. http://www.americanheritagegirls.com/uploads/AdultVolInfoWithApp11.pdf ....."Those individuals holding leadership positions must be at least 21 years of age; a legal resident of the United States of America".....(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Interesting read Gunny. Thanks!

Baden, With all due respect, it's time for you to put up or shut up. You keep making a lot of accusations and claims of the AHG's true motives. Many of us have repeatedly posted information from their website, but you've repeatedly avoided actually documenting any of your claims. But then, opinions are hard to document.

Here is a great article by National Geographics Boyd Matson. http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/traveler-magazine/unbound/boy-scouts/ "On this, my third climb up Kilimanjaro, I already know what to expect: six nights sleeping on the ground, no bath for a week, cold wind, thin air, and maybe mild altitude sickness. I keep asking myself, Why am I doing this, again? Finally I come up with an answer. I blame the Boy Scouts of America. That organization stole my soul when I was a kid and planted it in the wilderness. I was too young to resist their clever sales pitch built around hiking and camping trips. And their system of rewarding accomplishments with higher ranks and colorful merit badges meant, in effect, there was always one more goal to reach, one more mountain to climb"........

Well Baden, if you'll note, I was taking exception to YOUR comment and provided evidence from the AHG website as to what is actually in their Oath, mission, creed, etc. This whole ragging on the AHG you do sure seems to be an odd bur under the saddle of a Christian minister. You said, "its main purpose, from their own website and literature, is to build a CHRISTIAN girls relationship with God and their church." I showed you from their website where they do far more than that with their expectation of duty to family, country and community as well as God. And they do it in part thru an outdoor program. Certainly you have no objections to community service or camping, do you? It sounds like they want to help develop well rounded young women thru duty to God and country, self and others. They are simply more specific in duty to God than BSA is. No one is forced to join the AHG. It is simply one alternative organization.

Baden: "AHG is NOT a scouting program by any stretch of the imagination, its main purpose, from their own website and literature, is to build a CHRISTIAN girls relationship with God and their church." You left out a lot of other stuff in your biased opinion. AHG Oath: "I promise to love God, Cherish my family, Honor my country, and Serve in my community." AHG Mission: "Building women of integrity through service to God, family, community and country." AHG Vision: "American Heritage Girls is the premier national character development organization for young women that embraces Christian values and encourages family involvement." AHG Creed: As an American Heritage Girl, I promise to be: Compassionate - Understanding others in fellowship, empathy, kindness, and caring. Respect others' opinions and emotions. Helpful - Willingly serve others. Honest - Always tell the truth and keep my promise. Loyal - True to God, family, friends, community and country. Perseverant - Continuing to strive toward a goal despite obstacles. Pure - Keep my mind and body pure. Resourceful - Wisely use my time, materials and talents. Respectful - Honor my country, be obedient to those in authority and courteous to all. Responsible - Accountable for my own actions. Reliable in all situations. Reverent - Faithful and honoring to God. Respectful to the beliefs of others. AHG Statement of Faith American Heritage Girls is a Christ-centered leadership and character development ministry. The following Statement of Faith applies to all American Heritage Girls' Charter Organizations, Adult Members and Adult Leaders. "We believe that there is One Triune God Father, Jesus Christ His one and only Son, and the Holy Spirit Creator of the universe and eternally existent. We believe the Holy Scriptures (Old/New Testament) to be the inspired and authoritative Word of God. We believe each person is created in His image for the purpose of communing with and worshipping God. We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit who enables us to live a Godly life. We believe that each individual is called to love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength; and to love their neighbors as themselves. We believe that each individual is called to live a life of purity, service, stewardship and integrity." Clarity is further provided to the following terms: Purity An AHG member is called to live a life of holiness, being pure of heart, mind, word and deed, reserving sexual activity for the sanctity of marriage; marriage being a lifelong commitment before God between a man and a woman. Service An AHG member is called to become a responsible member of their community and the world through selfless acts, which contribute to the welfare of others. Stewardship An AHG member is called to use their God given time, talents and money wisely. Integrity An AHG member is called to live a moral life, demonstrating the inward motivation to do what is right, regardless of the cost. Note that the BSA mission statement says nothing about scouting. BSA Mission Statement The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. The truth is, both progams use the outdoors as the medium in which they teach their principles.

Customer service! Ever been to a store where you can't get help? Where you see employees everywhere, but they refuse to interact with the customers? I remember a day and time when you couldn't get anyone at Best Buy to help you, or if you did, you had to wait 15 minutes. Now, they practically knock you over coming and asking if they can help or if you have any questions. Lowe's and Home Depot have made the same switch. We all know those teenage guys who stare at the ground and mumble and avoid contact with adults. Those are not the guys you want to hire for camp staff. You want guys who are outgoing, confident, service minded and actually know their stuff. You want guys who take ownership of their job and the camp. Guys who want to make it better and do. All it takes is one season for a summer camp to get a bad reputation and it takes 5 to 10 years to recover from it. The troop I served didn't go to our council's camp for a decade because of a bad experience. It took a number of us to convince other folks that it was time to give it a chance.....and it was a positive experience. But when people come home and talk about the poor quality of food, or MB counselors, evening programs, unresponsive staff, etc, it can do harm for years to come. Good "customer service" is key. Staff needs to be positive, friendly, smile, helpful, knowledable and quick to fix problems.

Basement, Should I need to get a hip replacement at some point, what is your learned opinion on metal and plastic vs metal on metal vs ceramic on ceramic implants?

Sure he stands a chance. Just consider that his opponent has nothing more than his record to run on......and honestly, it isn't very good. We'd be foolish to give him four more years to continue doing what he's doing.

Baden, I already stated that I knew UU didn't consider themselves Christian when I told Pack "I realize that" in response to his comment. However, the UUA's own website says, "individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions", so it is possible that UU folks could identify themselves by one of those labels. But you should already know that. Maybe you are the one who needs to do more research before spouting off. UU does indeed use Minister, Reverend and even Pastor. But you should already know that. Maybe you are the one who needs to do more research before spouting off. It's rich that with all the arrogant and condescending comments that you make to posters here that you find a simple question in poor taste. All I wanted to know was where you are coming from since you say you are an ordained Christian Minister and Associate Pastor, yet find the AHG SOF to be pseudo-Christian. I don't know any mainstream Christian church that would take exception to it. I could possibly see UU having issues with it. That's why I asked. Me, I'm a Southern Baptist, a graduate of Oklahoma Baptist University with a degree in religion, a former youth minister, ordained Deacon and worked towards a Masters in Religious Education at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. That may all be pseudo-Christian to you, but most wouldn't agree with you. Edited to add: BTW, a little research found the Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship, founded in 1945. http://www.uuchristian.org/S_History.html(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

1 to post about the proper distance between light bulbs.

Pack, I realize that. However, UU has it's origins in Christianity as evidenced by the links below. Given Baden's claim that the mainstream Christian beliefs represented in AHG are "pseudo-Christianity", it made me wonder if this is where he is coming from. My degree is in religion and I too spent some time in the ministry and I don't see anything on the AHG website that any Christian denomination, protestant or Catholic, would take such strong exception to. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/welcome/index.shtml In addition to holding different beliefs on spiritual topics, individual Unitarian Universalists may also identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions. Our Unitarian Universalist faith has evolved through a long history, with theological origins in European Christian traditions. Today Unitarian Universalism is a non-creedal faith which allows individual Unitarian Universalists the freedom to search for truth on many paths. While our congregations uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists may discern their own beliefs about spiritual, ethical, and theological issues. http://www.uua.org/beliefs/history/index.shtml Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religious tradition that was formed from the consolidation of two different religions: Unitarianism and Universalism. Both began in Europe hundreds of years ago. In America, the Universalist Church of America was founded in 1793, and the American Unitarian Association in 1825. After consolidating in 1961, these faiths became the new religion of Unitarian Universalism through the Unitarian Universalist Association (UUA). Both religions have long histories and have contributed important theological concepts that remain central to Unitarian Universalism. Originally, all Unitarians were Christians who didn't believe in the Holy Trinity of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), but in the unity, or single aspect, of God. Later, Unitarian beliefs stressed the importance of rational thinking, a direct relationship with God, and the humanity of Jesus. Universalism emerged as a Christian denomination with a central belief in universal salvation; that is, that all people will eventually be reconciled with God. Since the merger of the two denominations in 1961, Unitarian Universalism has nurtured its Unitarian and Universalist heritages to provide a strong voice for social justice and liberal religion.

Eagle92, national has not taken over council websites. I know the folks who run ours locally. That being said, I believe council websites are supposed to conform to certain national standards.....although we have a sister council in my neck of the woods who's website hasn't changed in almost 8 years I know of. National's website has ALWAYS been poorly organized even with all of the changes they've made over the years. I actually think it is worse now however than before. My pet peeve with ScoutStuff is that it needs to be more shopper friendly. Yes, they have a zoom feature for pictures of most items, but how about multiple, large, high quality pictures that open in a seperate windw that you can cycle thru. One small picture of a pair of pants that you can zoom in on a little really isn't all that helpful. And better descriptions. We may be a captive audience, but that doesn't mean you can't provide better service. I can attest to t he fact that there are things I want to buy, but I won't until I can make it to the scout shop to see it in person. A better website would change that.

Baden, You certainly don't have to reveal this if you want, but what faith tradition do you follow? From many of the comments you've made, I'm guessing Unitarian Univeralist. I have no problem with that. I'm just wondering where you come up with ideas that mainstream Christian teachings are psuedo-Christianity. Knowing that UU draws from Christian teachings along with many other relgions, it just has me wondering if you are viewing Christianity thru that lens?

shortridge: "I'm not sure I get your point re: LDS. The church has adopted Boy Scouts as its young men's program, and agrees to abide by BSA's values, principles, practices and rules as part of that. I don't see any comparison to AHG there." Actually, LDS didn't adopt the Boy Scout program, they ADAPTED it. There is a world of difference between those two words. There is Boy Scouting and there is LDS Boy Scouting and there are differences. Tell you what, go try to volunteer at an LDS unit and see if they allow you in. They won't. Why? Because it isn't just a scout unit, it is a program element of their church and you aren't a member.

Second Class, Does your council not do council contingents to the HA bases? Ours does. We have a large troop and while only one or two boys come from wealthy families, the majority do not. Our troop does an annual HA trip that rotates between the bases or makes up our own. We are fortunate to have the resources to do that. But for those troops who don't have the means or the experience, any boy can sign up for a council contingent and go. Now, let me address OA. OA typically isn't expensive. A boy gets elected and completes his Ordeal and the only expense he may incur is the fees for attending the few Lodge activities that happen each year. If he wants to go to NOAC, there will be expense just like going to Jamboree.....but it will be cheaper. An added benefit of being an OA member is that it provides the absolute cheapest way to go to any of the HA bases. For $200, they go spend a week working on a trail crew and then get to spend a week on a custom trek the boys design. Other than the $200 price tag, you have to pay for your transportation there and back. There is no reason to deprive everyone based on the kid with the least funds. You need to open the possibility of every opportunity available to all of them and then work to help those who don't have the funds to raise the funds.

Shortridge, I could understand some people's argument about the association between the BSA and the AHG except for three other letters, LDS.

Too old for the next one? I'm unaware of an age limit for staff.

Pack, that sounds like an excellent idea. Baden, I'd actually like to see you address AHGnBSAMom's comments and questions instead of making baseless accusations. Saying that you've read their materials and you know first hand doesn't really cut it. You're going to have to document your claims of propaganda and psuedo-Christianity if you want to be taken seriously. What specifically can you provide as evidence that a reasonable and objective person could look at and be convinced of your argument?

For cost containments sake, our troop has a set dollar limit for food on campouts. That has changed over time as food prices has gone up. Every patrol has the same amount per person to make thier food purchase. Each patrol makes their own menu. Each patrol makes their grocery list and one boy serves as grubmaster to go do the shopping. This skill is taught to them by their Troop Guides when they are in the new scout patrol. The adults work under the same dollar amount as the boys. We always eat better than the boys. From time to time they complain. The answer always is, Mr. Soandso or Mrs. Whatshername has a standing offer to teach you guys how to cook like this using the same budget. More often than not, they decide it's too much trouble and go back to their bologna sandwich lunch. It's a boy led troop that has a tremendous amount of resources at their disposal. They are reminded of this often. You can lead a horse to water........