Sqyire21

JeffH: My son is 9 and is a Bear this year. I see the point you were trying to make, however not all school systems are the same. There are rules for ageing out of a Cub Scout year. So, while he could be a Webelos based on your comment, he's still very happy as a Bear.

Good luck with this....and I'd love to find out the solution. (because I have a similar issue here) I came from one pack which operated like this. Scout earned money, and that money was loaded into their ISA. Camp outs, annual dues, recharter/re-up fees, etc....all came from the ISA. This gave parents a reason to participate in the fund raising. New pack does things differently. Scout shows up to fund-raise. If the reaches the magic mark in sales... $333 in this pack....his dues are covered. If not, he pays the difference. "Oh, little Johnny sold $800 today...great for you...all sales after the magic mark go straight to the Pack." So.. where is the incentive to sell more? Oh, there isn't any? I'd love to see this system changed....but the CM has no interest in changing it, and even went so far as to say at the last committee meeting that we cap the scout at $100 for Pack dues, and nothing else will be kept in their accounts. There was never a vote on this...just him saying it. He then went on to explain how his son had sold over $800 that weekend! I was left asking myself...either the amount sold only matters up to $333, to cover the $100 pack fee....or you give the extra funds to the Scout, and keep it in their ISA. You can't have it both ways....and you certainly can't do it without a vote!

Interesting read, and I would like to know how this will play out. I had a similar issue with a friend who was the SM. He didn't understand the OA, and after a lot of poking from me (and others) he finally allowed an election. Several boys were elected, however most of them didn't attend the induction. The SM honestly was interested, however wasn't able to make it. (medical reasons) So... after all of the work, really only 1 boy was able to join OA. SM changed...and new SM said "Not worth our time...look how many didn't show interest last time." Wasn't really a fair statement, but I could understand his point of view. I hate to say it, but I'd start looking for a new troop. Make a very loud and honest appeal at the next committee meeting, and if they vote it down... walk. (I'd have your new troop already picked out, and probably want to warn them of the possible mass emigration heading their way) One point: You mention the 10%....which was the rule for elections several years back. Just so you know, and someone please confirm this: The 10% rule isn't used anymore. Now, if a boy has enough votes, they can attend Induction. From what I understand, this didn't open it up much...but it did help with some of the troops only having 1 or 2 boys get elected each year.

I'm sorry you're going through this. So far, some excellent advice has been given. My initial thought: Is this the Hill you wish to die on? While I certainly think the right thing to do is discuss this issue with the parents, and if you find no solution, bring it up to the Committee Chair...but as you explained, I don't expect a lot of resolution. You may need to decide if you can really effect a change at this point. With less than 6 months before cross-over...the young boy will learn more about what a parent can and can't sign off in 6 months after cross over. It's for this very reason, my former pack had a rule authorizing a Den Leader Conference. We allowed a parent to be present with the Cubmaster, however the parent would only be allowed to remind a boy of when he did an event, not what he did. (i.e. remember the 4th of July festival downtown...) This allowed issues like this to be dealt with...but we never had to actually do this.

Lions was actually a program in the 50's. (where WEBELOS actually came from... Wolves, Bears, Lions) Betting the program will need some refinement, but I agree, we should start in 2nd grade, and allow Scouts to earn a rank and move up..instead of forcing them to wait months on a program they are already done with. But I also don't like the book work and yearly repetition.

Okay, this is attempt 2 at this reply, so I hope it makes sense and I’m sure I’ll think of something important I missed with this version. Jblake: Please understand my original issue/comment. I don’t disagree that training is valuable, and advanced training (like your PhD example) is certainly beneficial. However, forcing me to attend training, which I have already received by another name, and then forcing me to pay with my time and my money to attend each training class.…is an issue which needs to be addressed at National. This is the same as asking a High School student to attend Algebra I for three years, just in case the instructor teaches them a different way to solve the same problem. It’s wasteful of my time and money, and more importantly...it wastes Scouting Resources. (ie. The trainers) By your own admission, you would hire the person with the more advanced training. But, would if you had to pick between two people who both have Associates Degree's. Would you pick the person who had to take the same class 3 times, or would you think...maybe this guy just didn't get it. What if one of them took 3 years to get the degree? Who would you hire? I would rather see National combine these three classes, and then develop an advanced outdoor leadership training class teaching new material. Make it more like a college system, and require course 101 before 201..but ensure the training is the same in every district. (I know it’s supposed to be like this already, but a quick poll on here will prove it’s not) IOLS does not require BALOO training, and OWL doesn't either. So, in an effort to develop skills specific to each program, we ended up with three required courses, all teaching the same material. Why can't IOLS cover all three? There are simply too many overlaps on these classes...and I'm not just considering these three above. However, just for this example, National needs to roll all three of these courses into a single class with clear, developed, and defined objectives. If you want me to know how to set up a tent, in the rain, blindfolded…fine. Set up a single course to teach me the required skills. If I don’t pass a skill, empower the instructors to re-teach me, or fail me. Allow for a remedial class/date or re-test system. But please don’t ask me to invest 3 separate weekends, at $30 a course, to learn each skill individually…while ‘discussing’ each of the other ones…before telling me I need to attend some other recently developed advanced course from national, in order to do all three of these at once and consider myself trained. Next: I agree with many of the earlier comments posted. In each of the classes I have attended, the instructors MADE the class. In many cases, they are trying hard to teach skills over and over, which they know most of the students already know…however they work hard to make it enjoyable and productive. The final point: National needs to recognize they are wasting their most valuable resource, the people. At some point, people will get fed up, and either simply stop attending the training, or just stop attending. Streamline the classes, and set a standard. I promise, we’ll all appreciate it, and we'll get a much better program for it.

So this topic really just hit me over the weekend, and I wanted to share my thoughts, and see what others feel. Years ago, when I was just a young scout, my father attended a single course (I think it was called Scoutmaster Basic)...a course which ran over 2-3 weekends and I think one-two weeknights, and was for new adult leaders. He's an Eagle Scout (like me) and so while it was a good refresher...he's admitted he didn't really learn much. Looking back, I honestly get the feeling this class was similar to the modern Woodbadge.. although there was a formal Woodbadge course at the time. In the modern military, we have a problem with continually adding training classes, causing personnel to be continually pulled from their real work, to either attend or complete redundant training classes which often cover the same material. In some cases, two and three times a year. I'm starting to feel this same problem has crept into the BSA. So...now I look at the modern training classes we as adult leaders must attend... and I'm wondering: 1) Does anyone else think we should combine some of these classes? I understand there are specific requirements for each group of scouting, but do we really need to attend BALOO, then WEBLOT/OWL, then IOLT, and so on. Each class seems to have basically numerous versions of the same information, so I ask: Why can't there just be a single course, which meets all of the requirements? What if I just attend Woodbadge...would that then cover all of these other classes? (council answer to this question is actually No, I would still need to attend the various classes) When I attended BALOO, the WEBLOT class was there, working with us. So were the IOLT folks. Now I find out... in my new council...OWL is only a single day class. So...what's the real difference between what I did, and what your asking me to do next? Again...I'm willing to attend a class...but just don't see the point in 3-4 classes to be 'trained' on basically the same stuff. 2) Does anyone else feel like we're getting a little 'training' happy in the BSA? Again...I'm all about safety and making sure our leaders know what they are doing...but do we really need to have "Angler Training" before folks can teach fishing skills? Scout Leader Basic Course....which is going to offer the same classes as the on-line training, but will soon be required in order to be "Trained." (because those of us who did the on-line training for the last 10 yeas or so apparently aren't considered trained now) Outdoor First Aid...because it's different from indoor First Aid. (I'll admit there are some differences here....but perhaps you are starting to see my point) Look folks, I've been fishing since I was 5...I'm pretty sure I got the basics down...at least enough to train local Cub Scouts...and I've probably got enough real basics for any Boy Scouts too. Yes, I admit freely I don't know everything, and yes, I'm always willing to learn something new. However, NO, I don't have another full Saturday (and another $30-50) to be certified to teach skills I've been doing for 30+ years. As a parent with multiple children, and a Scout Leader...my time is valuable to me. I promise...I have a life outside of work and the BSA....even if it may not seem like it. 3) So: Why can't we at least "Test Out" or "prove our experience" to gain these important 'certifications?' Again, the classes I'm talking about aren't like Red Cross CPR Trainer or NRA Range Safety Officer classes I'm talking about. It's the growing number of BSA approved, BSA required classes, which seem to be designed to validate a leaders abilities. I feel like we're being questioned on our abilities, and so the National Answer is...create a course, force people to attend, and then they can teach the youth....but don't let them teach anything without first attending our classes. 4) Does anyone else feel like the requirement to attend these classes is almost being used as a fundraiser or perhaps a justification for each council? Justification for what, I can only begin to imagine, but it just seems like it's being forced on us, and the requirements are growing each year. Honestly looking for other folks thoughts.

I'm sure the sooner you let them know, the better your chance to get them booked. Some ceremonies are better than others, and a little research will help you come up with a few which aren't so lame. I don't believe they would charge...except maybe for a meal. Every council is a little different, but most OA Ceremony teams don't charge...it's part of what they enjoy doing. I hope your ceremony is enjoyable!

Scout needs to attend at least 1 event per month. My previous pack offered 2 events per month (like yours) and all anyone needed was to attend 1 of the 2 events each month. (as a side note, we did authorized a Scout the award for attending 3 events over only 2 months....but it was because he attended all 4 in Jun/Jul, and moved before Aug. While probably not legal, we felt it was right)

So, my wife and I just got new i-Phones, and I'm looking for the best APPs for Cub Scouting. I used to have several app's on my Android, but I wanted to see if anyone else has any good suggestions.

The belt loops 'can' show up on internet advancement...but it depends on who you have input your awards. I know I input dozens of belt loops as advancement chair, but when I spoke to the district register, she didn't care at all, and even admitted she didn't input them. Overall, I still find it interesting how many parents want to ensure Little Johnny has all the Belt Loops and Arrow Points, when really...only the Arrow of Light goes on any final reports...kinda like Eagle...

Okay folks....the family and I have arrived safely and we've found a home in Northern Columbia. I managed to run into a local Cub Master at dinner tonight, (he was returning from an OA event) and he recommended a couple of local Packs to me. So, we're here....and looking. Hope we find our new Pack this week.

I read all of this today with interest. Some of my thoughts: - Belt Loops/Pins: Yes, they are very very easy to earn, but the purpose is to expose the scouts to something new. I'm not personally sure who would sign off a Belt Loop after only 45 min, as I know in my very recent former pack, it took over an hour to get most of the requirements. The Pin's normally took an additional 1-1.5 hours...after the Belt Loop. (and that was for the easy ones...several took longer) - Arrow Points: My son's Wolf Den last year averaged 7-8 arrow points. They are relatively easy to earn....but like the Belt Loops, are just to expose the scouts to new things. I know the requirements changed just a few weeks back, to allow elective credit to be awarded for Wolf/Bear requirements, which weren't used towards the award of Wolf/Bear. For Wolf, this easily allows for a Gold Arrow point...and for Bear, even more. For sewing on the arrow points, I usually bring my sewing machine a couple of times a year, and sew patches on. These sessions have known to take well over the 1 hour den meeting, but I warn the families, and they are normally more than happy to wait for the patches to be sewn on. - Other Awards: I didn't see anyone mention them, but the NOVA awards are a recent addition to the program, and are a great way to expand a program and expose the youth to new things. My former pack managed to complete two of the NOVA over just a few short weeks. (3 per award) The scouts enjoyed the new information, and we were able to tie in other achievements. - # of Arrow Points: I saw someone ask about the number of arrow points earned, and what needs to be remembered is the Cub Scouts can earn elective credit numerous times, for each elective. So...if you build 3 pine-wood derby cars in a year...you earn 3 elective credits. Play a board game as a family...another credit. It's very easy to earn a ton of electives over 12 months....

It counts as a team sport in the Bear Book... so to me, it's clear cut.

TwoCub: I like the letter, and I think you clearly let them know the ball is in their court. Hopefully they work with you. I'm honestly surprised at the low level of completion, as I know several of our new Bear Scouts are on par to be 50% complete before the end of the summer. (and they can certainly be further than 50% with a little more work) There are some of the Bear requirements which are extremely easy and can be done over a single weekend. A couple of points I'd like to make: Cubs advance on 1 June, or once they are complete with each grade. (i.e. completing 2nd grade, the boy advances) I know many Packs allow for a couple of extra weeks in June....but 2 full months is a bit excessive. That being said, if I was in your position....I'd probably work with our advancement chairman to allow this as well. As you point out.. as long as the boys aren't working towards WEBELOS... Hope this ends well for the Scout and your Pack.

Lion's was actually around back in the 50's. (my dad was one) Tigers didn't start until the 80's, after the Lion's program was discontinued. They seem to just be recyling the name and putting it into a younger age group. That being said, if it's designed well... it should be nice to have a younger program around.

Okay, I can think of a few different thoughts, so I'll try and put them all down. - Did the Scouts "Do Their Best" to complete the requirements? While I don't normally consider this theory acceptable, I have heard of leaders who do. - Cub Scouts are supposed to advance programs on 1 June. That being said, my pack will allow a scout to continue to work on rank advancement for a couple of weeks into June if they really need it. But, you also need to consider: By allowing them to delay advancement....you may be preventing them from completing their requirements for the next rank next year. I would consider sitting down with the parents and mapping out what each Scout has left, and making sure they can complete the missing items quickly. Each program is easily completed in a matter of a couple of months....so even if you only meet a few times a year, if the scouts are active during the off weeks...they can finish the yearly program easily. Hope this helps.. as I'm sure there will be other thoughts.

All great thoughts, and I like the various idea's. I can certainly see the pro's/con's to each. : Just another idea Here, variations on earlier: Just figure out who the two strongest boys are... make them den 1 and den 2, then they pick their favorite Den Leader (Dad (or mom) A and Dad B).. and then have the boys choice one at a time to join each den. You have your first Denner (boy den leader) and the boys were able to pick based on their choices. Will they all be happy? doubt it. Will they all be able to get along? Probably Can you offer a re-adjustment in 3-4 months? Sure.. (sounds more like a BSA patrol really) As mentioned, this hinges on so many factors. Who are the leaders, and how strong are they? Will the dens swap half-way through the year to work with both leaders? (perhaps one just isn't the outdoors guy, but he's great with the academics stuff) Will both programs be structured differently but closely tied together? The biggest pro to this is forcing the boys to interact with other boys they may not be as inclined to work with. Yes that will take work... but it's do-able. The trick is ensuring a balanced program from both Den Leaders, and working together, without being mirror copies. The Pro: You gain a 'rival' den, who challenges you----but you gain a brother den to protect as well. I'm actually jealous, because these kids could all end up finishing Eagle all close together, because you laid the ground work for it early... and they didn't want to leave their buddies behind.. (and that will be a curse on their future Scout Master as well)

Faith: Just my two cents, but I don't personally like the idea of mixing anything with Archery and BB Gun. The kids should be totally concentrated on the activity in-front of them. While I understand there isn't a LOT of risk during a Cub Scout outing (because we take so many precautions) I also believe stressing the importance of what they are doing and paying full attention to what is going on with the range is much more valuable than any science (or other) lesson they may get. I admit I look at this through a little different lens, as I'm in the military and grew up around fire-arms. (Dad was an Army Ranger, step-dad was a cop) Just remember, in a few more years, the BB-Gun will be a .22 or shot-gun, and the bow will have much more power. Fundamentals are important. On a further side-note: If I was going to try and do this, I think you've probably already discussed some good idea's. However, I don't think I'd try to do these at the Firing Range. Save it for a class-room. (we had a really cool Mad Scientist presentation back in Oct at our Spooktacular...I'll have to try and find out what university put it on. Lots of Halloween ty

Interesting conversation. As a current Cub Master, I haven't heard this complaint. (ever actually) We try to teach our Scouts the importance of wearing their uniforms, and they work very hard to earn all of their beads and badges. Most are all VERY proud of the things they have earned, and can't wait to put on the next patch or bead once they complete them. For campouts and hiking, etc.. we do wear a Class B Tee-Shirt option. However, if we're going to be out in public, where we represent our Pack...we're in Class A Field Uniforms. I will ask some of my parents about this....but again, I haven't heard this complaint once. I'll admit we do get the occasional "didn't wear their uniform" but mostly it's because they came from another activity

Here's my two cents.... I have been given one check from my Pack...and it was only after I approached them because of the amount I asked for. Could I claim more...of course. I'm sure most of our leaders rack up $50-100 every couple of months with little expenses. (I know I do) But, most of these expenses are small and easily written off by the individual as just part of leading the Pack/Den. So.. how do you get them to keep an account book and offer up receipts? I don't have a good answer, because when we donate $5 here and $10 there... it doesn't seem like much. When we have to cut a check for $50-70, we all tend to notice. I honestly think its a matter of "Is that really worth the trouble?" (its like deducting the mileage we use for BSA from our taxes... can we? yes...will we? Probably not)

I love the idea of a pack photo with boys signatures. We gave our last Cubmaster a coffee cup which we had engraved with his name.

Okay folks... I like all of your inputs, and I agree with all of you. I didn't need to sew any uniforms tonight, and I let the Boy Scouts know they needed to sew their own ranks on their uniforms. (however I have agreed to help with putting on district patchs and troop numbers if asked) Thanks for the thoughts everyone.

Okay, first...my son is still in Cubs. However, I brought my sewing machine to a meeting last week, and now I'm helping our Boy Scout troop get their uniforms up to par. So, for all of the Scout Troops out there--Have any of you seen velcro used to attach rank patches? Next: What is the best way to sew the rank or velcro strip onto the pocket? Looking for some advice. Thanks,

Do you really think the Outdoor Activity will change? LNT and Outdoor Ethics are at least the same programs...but I'm not sure I see a reason to change the Outdoor Activity Awd.