Sprocket

John-in-KC, the council number (on your membership card) doesn't have anything to do with the size class your council is in. For example, the Greater St. Louis Area council is a Class 200 council, but it is council #312.

Just got back Saturday from our council's first weeklong course in over 10 years. I used to be a fox. Now it's time to work my ticket...

Stosh, The cannons and large-bore artillery restriction is supposedly due to accidents at a few scout camps where cannons used to fire blanks during flag ceremonies exploded and injured scouts. I can recall one of my council's camps using a cannon back when I went to Webelos camp as a scout--the cannon is no longer there.

The flags you can get from your US Senator or Congressman are not free, and really aren't that cheap. I looked into it last fall. I then contacted my state rep, and he sent me a U.S. Flag and State Flag for free. Your mileage may vary...

In my council, every adult leader wears a district patch on their right sleeve. It's been that way for well over 20 years (they were doing it when I was a scout). It's an approved council variation that has withstood several SE changes. The scouts don't wear district patches. I've yet to be in a situation where I was in uniform around folks from other councils, so I haven't had to deal with people questioning our district patches. But in our big council, it does help us to know what general part of the area people are from when you are at camp or some other council event.

I recall reading somewhere that there is a provision for boys being registered in two troops. This most commonly happens when a boy's parents are divorced and he splits time living with parents in different cities or different parts of the country. He can then participate in scouting no matter which parent he is currently living with. It takes extra coordination between the parents & units, though.

The scoutmaster doesn't even need to be there (although he/she should). Between my Eagle BOR and my ECOH, my SM got a new job in another city and moved 800 miles away. I didn't even have an address for him to send him an invitation. We didn't have a new SM and the troop basically folded for a few years after that. I had a UC from my former troop present my Eagle.

Class of '93. Now a Tiger Den Leader for the pack & ASM for the troop.

When I wanted to get back into scouting at age 22 or 23, I was encouraged to sign up as an ASM to help my then-church's troop. I went through SM Fundamentals training, and was incredibly enthusiastic. But the SM would cancel or reschedule meetings, letting the word go to the boys at school, and not bother to call me. So I'd show up for troop meetings and no one would be there. It was a small troop, and the SM didn't know what to do with an ASM. It began to feel like a waste of my time, and I stopped helping, despite the SM's wife apologizing and making excuses for him nearly every time she ran into me. Had I instead known more about volunteering at the district level, it would've been a much better use of my experience and youthful enthusiasm. I wouldn't have had such a break in my scouting service, and might have been able to help out. Getting to know people at the district level would've helped me (and my pack) quite a bit now that I have sons and am a unit-level scouter, too. I would encourage you to volunteer at the district level. I wish I had. It's very hard for young men to volunteer at the unit level if you weren't a scout in the unit and don't have a son involved. I would think that as a UC, you could schedule your unit service around your work schedule. -Todd Tiger Cub Den Leader Eagle Scout

There was a lot of discussion here and elsewhere several months back, but it really died down. Supposedly, it was going to be piloted in a few councils. Maybe somebody on the forum from one of those councils can let us know how it's going...

Were our pack chartered to a non-religious organization, I would agree with all of John-in-KC's comments, however I will continue to disagree with some of them. The Rosary patch program does not require the boys to profess Roman Catholic beliefs; it educates them about the Rosary. The Rosary is not actually specific to Roman Catholicism. Some of the most prolific Marian scholars have not even been Catholic (one was a Lutheran pastor and seminary professor). At any rate, my wife and I are neither the CC nor the CM. The patch is something the pack has done for the past year or two, and doing the activity at a pack meeting was a done deal before we joined up. My wife was just tapped to run it this year. I'm a lowly tiger den leader. I don't expect any parent complaints, but if there are, the CC and CM will handle them, as the activity was their call, and our IH/priest, a longtime scouter (silver beaver, etc., etc.) will be happy to chat with the parent about the differences between packs chartered to Catholic churches vs. those chartered to public school organizations. (knowing him, that's the approach he would take) I doubt we'd feel heat from the council. Our membership and popcorn numbers are good...

Since this thread has some life again, let me clarify for ScoutNut & John-in-KC. All of the boys in our pack are Roman Catholic. If any aren't that I'm not aware of, their parents have already chosen to send them to a Catholic grade school where they sign an agreement about the Catholic religious education that will be provided for their child. I'm not worried about getting written permission for the boys to participate. They were all informed in our pack newsletter that the boys would be working on the Rosary patch at the pack meeting. Besides, it's a pack meeting--the parents are *supposed* to be there anyway... John-in-KC, I understand your point about scouting being non-sectarian, but a religious organization CO can use scouting programs as part of its youth ministry (as do many Catholic scout units and seemingly all of the LDS). Instead of high adventure, our parish's Venturing crew is organized as a religious activities crew, and is used as the parish youth group for high-school aged youth. As an fyi, The Glorious mysteries have to do with the resurrection, the ascension, Pentecost, and the assumption and coronation of Mary. What we'll be doing for the pack meeting tomorrow night are skits for each of the Glorious mysteries, acted predominantly by leaders with each den taking a part in one of the skits. The boys will then do a round-robin session to go around to adults in different parts of the gym to answer 5 questions of their choosing out of the 10 questions provided to complete the requirements for the patch. Should be fun--we have makeshift costumes & everything!

In another thread, the abuse of repeating Tiger electives was brought up, such as Elective 14, which involves reading a short story or magazine article with your parent or adult partner (what about kids who read every night?) or Elective 48, taking a ride on public transportation (a parent who wanted to count the scout riding the bus to and from school each day?) The responses I usually see when this is brought up involve scouters saying that they only count each elective once, or they'll let a scout count each twice, or some limitation like that. The Tiger electives are going to be a conundrum for me, too. It makes no sense to count so many repetitions of an elective (like the examples above), but the instructions in the Tiger handbook specifically state that electives may be completed more than once. If we place restrictions on repeating electives, are we adding to the requirements?

Hi all, My wife has been tapped to coordinate our pack's participation in the rosary patch program for this year. For the past couple of years, the pack has had the boys earn that year's rosary patch at the Jan. pack meeting (our CO is a Catholic church). She's hoping people might have ideas for doing the rosary patch as a big group. Last year, the CM read a story/explanation to the boys followed by a round-robin format where different adults each had a question, and the boys would go around and get a sign-off on a card when they answered a question correctly. The wife is thinking of doing something different, but she's used to working with jr. high/high school age kids, rather than 1st-5th graders, so she's having trouble thinking up new ideas.

f2c, I understand some of your frustration. As a former scout, I wanted to start volunteering with scouting as soon as I finished college. I didn't have any children yet, but signed up as an ASM with the troop at our church (Catholic parish). I got fully trained, and was ready to go. But there was no communication from the SM. I'd show up for a troop meeting and no one would be there, because it had been cancelled for some reason. The SM had made sure all the scouts were told at school that day, but didn't bother to call and tell me. I eventually gave up and stopped showing up, despite the SM's wife's excuses and urging me to continue to help. In retrospect, I wished I'd have become a UC or done some other district role. I think I'd have had more fun, and wouldn't have had the problems I'd have had. Plus, now that my oldest is a Tiger cub now, I would have already become familiar with the district leadership, which would be helpful for our pack. But hindsight is 20/20. Good luck, and I hope you find a way to volunteer. I'd echo the suggestion to contact the district chairman or district commissioner for the district where you live. Even if you don't want to volunteer at the district level, these two volunteer scouters might respond better to your wish to help than the professional scouter (DE) did. They're likely to also know of units in need of additional volunteers.

I think that Scoutnut's ire was directed at me. He and I apparently disagree over the degree of flexibility to exercise within the Tiger program. (although I think we agree more than we disagree) At any rate, my response may have caused TigerDen2's thread to get hijacked a bit. Sorry 'bout that. TigerDen2, you might start off by giving them a list of the program things you need/want help with. If the parents are unwilling to tackle a whole month's worth of meetings, then give them specific parts of the meeting to be responsible for. Give them suggestions, so they don't feel completely lost. I've had luck just saying that "The Go-See-It for this month will be ________ to fulfill a Tiger rank requirement. I need someone to help out by contacting ____________ to set it up." Sometimes you have to start gradually, and they'll catch on. Plus, once they see other parents doing their part, peer pressure may get the rest of the parents to step up and help.

Scoutnut, I understand the message you're trying to convey, and I agree with you that parents should attend everything with their Tiger cubs, but I question that BSA rules *REQUIRE* that adult partner must be in attendance for the Tiger cub to be able to be at a den meeting. It is not stated anywhere in the G2SS, and the Den Leader Handbook does not go so far as to mandate it. Now the literature states that adult partners should attend, and I take that approach as well, but I don't think it's right to keep a boy from a den meeting or pack meeting if his parents have work conflicts, or one parent is taking a class on our den meeting night and the other parent can't get a sitter for the three younger siblings, or the scout whose mother has to be late to the meeting because a sister has an activity at the same time and his dad is serving in Iraq, etc. The intent of the program is good, and I agree with it. But we also need to have a little flexibility, too.

I echo Eagle-Pete's comments. From my experience as a Tiger Den Leader so far this year, many parents are reluctant to volunteer. They don't want to put in the time, they feel/say they don't know enough to do it, and they're more than happy to let the DL do the work. Plus, they may see the other dens run without the degree of parent involvement, and not understand why Tigers has to be different. Tigers wear the same uniforms, they're a den in the pack, why does Tigers run differnt? My pack is one where Tiger dens in previous years were run like Wolf & Bear dens. No shared leadership, and parents didn't have to attend meetings and activities with their Tigers. That's made for an uphill battle for me. I didn't want to scare families away by requiring too much more than prior tiger leaders have required, so I've been requiring parents to attend meetings (I've been flexible about it, though) and have been gradually getting parents more involved. I've had some luck with creating a sign-up sheet where I've listed what I'd like to see the den do for den meetings and Go-See-Its for the next few months, and the parents sign up for which things they want to organize and run. I haven't had enough opportunities for all families to sign up yet (my den has 13 Tigers), but I'll get to them, and after the reluctant parents see the example from the more willing parents, it should help. I also have trouble from some parents who were told by the CM at School Night for Scouting that I'm an Eagle scout, and they make a big deal out of it, and use it as an excuse not to sign up for things.

Seems like it might be good to get your Chartered Organization Rep or some other experienced scouter involved in the meeting with the den leader. It would help to have someone else there who you know the den leader respects and whose opinion the den leader is less likely to ignore. This way he can't discount what you are telling him by saying he has more years of scouting experience, or whatever.

We had a good School night for Scouting the other night, and had 15 boys sign up. Eleven of those are Tigers, and at least two more Tigers are expected to join at next week's pack meeting. So that makes 13. There's another boy we were expecting to sign up that we haven't yet heard from, so it could even be 14. I'm the new Tiger Den Leader, and am thinking about how to broach the idea of splitting into two dens. Our pack is at a Catholic Parish/School with one classroom per grade, and all but one of the Tigers go to that school. Our pack traditionally hasn't divided dens, although the largest den in recent history (that I know of) was 10 boys. The other leadership has downplayed the need to divide the Tigers, saying that they don't like to split them up, since they're all in the same class together, etc. I don't like the idea of splitting them up either, but I also don't like the idea of such a huge den--that's potentially 26+ people for a den meeting! The biggest challenge in my mind right now is figuring out how to decide which boys go in which den? I'd like to know what systems others have used for that. (I was glad to hear when talking to one of the dads in my den today that he thinks they should be divided up, too--I don't see him volunteering to be a den leader for the other den, but at least there might be support)

The article also mentions that the scout earned the Hornaday medal. Not an easy feat. He sounds very motivated.

In my council BALOO training is a day and a half, including an overnight campout. Usually from Saturday to Sunday, I believe (haven't taken it yet, I'll probably do it in the spring). Is there any information on your council's website?

"he will be told to leave the troop as well as the scouting program with no chance for reinstatement." ----- I fail to see how a troop committee could keep the boy and his parents from signing up with another troop. Sure, they might be able to make life difficult and refuse to transfer over his advancement records, but I don't really see it as being their call to kick him completely out of scouting, unless the district or council were involved.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions (please, keep 'em coming!) ScoutNut, I took my training back in May so I'd have it done before the start of the school year. I plan to use the shared leadership, but it hasn't been done in prior years' Tiger Dens in our pack. As some of the parents have older sons who've been through Tigers without it, I don't want shared leadership to be too radical of a change, and be seen as a negative. On the other hand, these parents with older sons are also a good potential resource. What I plan to do is to map out what I'd like worked on each month advancement-wise, and give them info about the monthly theme, along with some suggestions/ideas for activities they can organize, but they could always do something different. This way they won't have to think up too much from scratch, if they don't want to. I have a feeling I'll have a mix of parents. There's a few that I know will be really helpful, and some that I think don't feel they have time/ability/interest in doing things. It looks like we'll have around 10 boys, so some parents could easily decide they'd rather not take a month and it wouldn't cause problems.

You're probably right. Yesterday we went and checked out Whitehaven, the Ulysses Grant National Historic Site, which is very near here. My 6 year-old thought it was "boring," but for scout groups, they have a program they put on to show kids how things were done 150 years ago. The ranger made it sound more hands-on. My son probably would've had more fun if his friends were along, too. It doesn't help that I've been feeling a lot of pressure lately since the other parents in the pack and some of the incoming Tiger parents have heard that I'm an Eagle and seem to make a deal out of it. I feel like there are these big expectations.