Snake Eater

The OT says that men who have sexual relations with one another should be put to death. To say that the bible does anything less than condemn homosexuality is ignorance at least and deceit at worst. The Quran has little to say about homosexuality but in the Hadith Mohamed says that you should kill the one that does it and the one it is done to. It is difficult for me to understand how one can interpret this as anything but a condemnation of homosexuality. So much for "interpreting the Bible in ways that are favorable to their views". I don't have any statistics on it but I would suppose that easily better than 90% of scouts are Christian, Jewish, or Islamic. So we should change a policy to allow people that the three major sects consider immoral to please the tiny minority of sects that say its OK? Give me a break. What you are really saying in your post Prairie is that you wish that the BSA could be divorced from religion so that homosexuals could paricipate. Let's ask ourselves why homosexuals want to have access to other people's children.

And if we find a witch while backpacking....?

I've heard and experienced different versions of this story time and again over the years. The closer you are to a city the more likely it is that only a scout would be able to start a fire properly. Out in the country you are more likely to find that most boys can start a fire - scout or not.

I agree with Cutter - the Victronox Tinkerer is a fine all around knife. I used to carry one in the army and attached it to a belt loop with parachute cord so that I wouldn't lose it. We did this with much of our equipment. They were called dummy cords. I get my scouts to get into the same habit. Belt mounted knife carriers are fine except when you have a pack on your back, then they are just in the way. I've always carried pocket knives ... in my pocket, except for my leatherman. We try to steer our cub scouts toward lock blade knives but every single one of them wants a swiss army type knife because it has so many gadgets. I say give them the knife they want (within reason) and teach them to use it properly.

Hunt said: "I would draw the line at fangs, at least until the Scout has earned his Tot'n Chip." ROTFL! I spewed milk and cookies on my monitor and I'm still chuckling 10 minutes later. johndaigler said: "Why would you have a different rule for BOR than for every other aspect of your Program??" Why would you wear a coat and tie to a job interview when that is not the daily uniform if you get the job? Answer: Because you want to make a good impression. This is valuable lesson for life - you will have to make concessions to people who have the ability to grant you something. This young man won't have the luxury of walking out on an employer if he doesn't like the dress code when he has a wife and kids. I wouldn't have done what the bor member did but I wouldn't have begged the kid to come back either. They were both wrong. FWIW, the rule for the girls in my house is no makeup or piercings until they are 16. The rule for our boy is don't put anything in your body that you don't want me to yank out suddenly on first sight.

There are some great stories about heroes in "The Book of Virtues". My cubs particularly liked the story of Ulyses and the Cyclops when I told it.

busylady, Bravo! I was going to post something similar to your message in response to PrarieScouter but I think you've said it well. I'll just say this... my religious beliefs and my opinions on homosexuality are inseperable. I don't know about other religions and denominations but my own church's doctrine is that morality without godliness is worthless.

I think that the training you are looking for is Range Safety Officer but you'd better confirm that. The web site www.nrahq.org is where you find information on training. If RSO is the course you are looking for then there isn't much to choose from in PA. Here are your best bets from my search... Range Safety Officer * Marriottsville - Saturday, August 13, 2005, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc., $125 Carl M. & Roxanne Byczkowski, 410-875-0664. , sureshottraining@aol.com Class types: Range Safety Officer * Marriottsville - Saturday, August 13, 2005, Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore, Inc., $125 Carl M. & Roxanne Byczkowski, 410-875-0664. , sureshottraining@aol.com Class types: Range Safety Officer * Takoma Park, - Wednesday, April 13, 2005, 6839 Eastern Avenue, $250 Ricardo A. Royal, 202 529-4724. , Class types: Range Safety Officer

From the back of the circle a scouter clears his throat and says, "Excuse me." Snake Eater steps into the space made for him in the circle. Lifting the pot of coffee in his hand he adds, "Anybody want a cup?" =========== I've only been on the board a couple of weeks but, except for some posts to and from Merlyn and a comment about rednecks, the conversations that I've watched have been fairly civil. Two posters on the opposing (relative to the current BSA policy) side of the gay member issue have been patient and respectful of many people who disagree with them strongly. They are tjhammer and prarie_scouter. On the pro side of the issue it may sound harsh to say that if someone does not meet the requirements then they cannot join or should leave but sometimes the truth can be harsh.

Prarie_Scouter said, "If BSA is out of step in a large way with what is going on in other Boy Scout organizations around the world, that should at least cause us to pause and wonder if BSA is right." You are getting close to the "everybody else is doing it" argument that I tried to use as a kid. It is better to have a set of moral principles based on the guidance of God and sift whatever comes along thru that screen.

In the military I've slept tentless on the ground during a rain storm on the jungle floor wrapped in a poncho with my uniform and equipment still on. I was warm and only a little wet and slept like a baby. On the other hand I spent miserable nights on the top of bare mountains in Turkey and longed for a warmer bag. Hot good - cold bad. The military issue bags served me well but tend to be heavy and bulky. Having grown up in the South without air conditioning I can handle heat just fine. It's difficult to sleep while you shiver. Most of the boys went out and got poncho liners after they saw mine so I think they'll do fine in warm weather lieing in an unzipped bag with the liner as a blanket. Thanks for the advice. I'm putting your advice together with advice from local scouts to pass on to the parents.

"I find it extraordinarly immoral to prejudge a 15 year old gay Scout as "incapable of being the best kind of citizen", and reinforce in his mind that he is unworthy of your association." tjhammer, Now who said that? No one here. What we have said repeatedly is that we don't want our own sons influenced by homosexuals because we consider their behavior immoral. Therefore, we support the exclusion policy of the BSA. It is as simple as that. I have compassion for homosexuals. From my perspective theirs is a difficult and sad existence.

I made my recommendation thinking that it's easy to sleep on top of a cold weather bag with a light blanket thrown over in warm weather. But it is difficult to keep from being miserable when it is cold and you don't have the right gear. Am I wrong? I'm not an inexperienced camper but most of my camping has been a bit different than the type that scouts do (military, fishing camp, rock climbing) The troop that the boys will most likely join does most of their backpacking when it is cold but they camp all year.

Hunt, I misunderstood your meaning - we agree completely on what is meant my principle and decisions based on them. I am neither blind nor self deluded. Attitudes toward homosexuality have changed, even here in the bible belt. I think that it is because more people today know and like someone who is homosexual. My own attitudes have changed. As I alluded in an earlier post, I know several people who are homosexual and I treat them with the same respect as anyone else, I just don't think they are a good role model for my children. There are people who do other things that I consider immoral and I don't let my children hang around with them either. Scouting has the a policy that is similar to the policy of our church... anyone can come in and join us but to take a leadership position you have to meet certain standards of morality.

Please don't take offense but why not consider exploring religion to be sure that there is nothing to it? I invite you to visit a few churches close to home with an open mind. What if you are wrong and there really is a God? According to my beliefs, a lot depends on your decision. If you are not willing or still don't find a reason to believe then regrettably the right thing to do is to drop out. I truly hope that it doesn't come to that.

I have eight Webelos who will be crossing over in a year. I'm telling them to ask for a good 20-degree bag for birthday/xmas before they become scouts. The troop that they will be going to camps at least 11 times per year. Can any of you recommend a bag that costs less than $100, $100-$200? Should the boys get a boy-sized bag? Should it be a mummy type bag?

Hunt, I do think that people would leave the organization in the area where I live. I've seen people leave denominations and whole churches split off from their denominations here because of the denomination's drift toward liberality. The Presbyterian church is probably the best known example of the latter. To be fair, I've seen the reverse but to a much lesser degree. I live in the Bible Belt and they call it that for a good reason. I've already pointed out that organizations here that are very supportive of boy scouting give no support to girl scouting because of their policies. I'm sure that their support would be withdrawn if the BSA changed their policy to something like that of the GSA. Their lack of support stems from the national policy, not the lack of merit of the local organization. I don't know how you define a principle but in my book this is what is called a principled stand. One based on what you believe regardless of other circumstances. I don't understand what you mean by your statement that quitting an organization whose morality you disagree with is unprincipled. I don't think that the number of gay leaders would be small if it were allowed. I think that gays would use this as a way to make some sort of statement to the rest of us. tjhammer, Was that hyperbole or stereotype? I'm sorry but the comparison to the civil rights movement just doesn't wash. People who opposed civil rights were morally wrong in every way. Most people who are opposed to the demands of the homosexual community do so from a moral standpoint with religious underpinnings. Blacks were denied rights because of the appearance they were born with. Homosexuals choose to behave differently. They have the same rights that I do but are trying to use the government to force others to accept their lifestyle. These are two very different movements. There is no logical reason for a person who favored the civil rights movement to change their mind as they grew older and had children. Not so for youngsters who are tolerant of homosexuality. I for one will grant you part of the point that you are trying to make. I do think that people left scouting and that some people stay away from scouting because they did not change their policy. But I think the number is far smaller than the loss that would have occurred if they had changed the policy. I think that people are more tolerant of homosexuality when they are younger. That is part of what your statistics show. But I think that society in general is more tolerant of homosexuals, especially on the left coast, the northeast, and urban areas in all parts of the country. So, you are right on this point too - but not entirely. Can you take that increased tolerance and assume that these tolerant parents want their son to emulate a homosexual scoutmaster. I don't think so. Even though it is true that people have left and will stay away from boy scouting because of BSA's policy I doubt that you will change anyone's opinion with this argument. As I've said, poeple who I am familiar with are against the policy change on moral priciple. I don't think that the loss because BSA did not change their policy is nearly as large as the loss they would have seen if they had. Here is an analogy, the VFW could potentially increase their membership if they allowed anti-war protesters to join. But the loss of current membership would be greater than the gain. Not to mention the fact that it would change the character and traditions of the organization. (This message has been edited by Snake Eater)

Well said Bob White. I don't hate anyone, including homosexuals. There is a young man in my work place who is homosexual. I treat him like anyone else, with respect. Have had lunch with him and we had a pleasant conversation. I disagree with how he lives his life but it's his choice to do what he does. I would not be so friendly with someone who is a flamboyant in-your-face homosexual. But I still wouldn't hate them. Whatever their stripe, I don't want my boy influenced by someone whose morals are not up to a certain standard. So, we don't let him spend time at the homes of his friends if their parents: allow their children to watch R rated movies, drink openly or to excess, use foul language, are known to have affairs, etc. We don't allow them to spend time with children who are disrespectful, curse, bully, steal, etc. We don't shun these people ourselves. We're friendly to them but don't think they are good examples for our children to emulate. Likewise with homosexuals. Our opinions on this are formed largely by our religious beliefs. So, if you disagree with this take it up with HIM.

I'm with you Wingnut. I take the term in the manner given. It's late, go to bed you old redneck. ;-)

Ethics and Politics & Government. If only they could be combined. But that would be like combining honesty and theivery.

While we're on this topic... If the Lightning Patrol does their (as yet nonexistant) cheer in the woods and no one is around to hear them, do they make a sound?

Fuzzy, You're not exactly right about the direction of lighting. It originates in the sky and travels downward. Then the return stroke produces the flash. The return stroke does travel upward. How about just ShhhhhhhBoom! with a zigzag hand motion, going downward of course.

DugNevius: "If the BSA were to accept homosexuals mass amounts of rednecks would leave scouting." It didn't take long for the discussion to degenerate to name-calling, the last resort of those with weak minds and weaker arguments. I have an ignore user button and I'm not afraid to use it. See ya. Not! :-P

Here is an alternative organization http://www.ahgonline.org/ which was started because of GSA's policies.

tjhammer, I'm really not up for becoming an amatuer statistician and proving to the group that Canada Scouting declined because of their policy change. I have my opinions that I'll share with a few supporting facts that I can gather. I live in the South. I know the people that are involved in boy scouting in my region. I am all but certain that most would drop out of scouting if the policy changed. I say this because many that I know do not buy Levi Straus products or shop at Home Depot because of their policy toward BSA's stand. I know that most COs here are churches and that many if not most would drop their charter if the policy was changed. I know this because the COs do not charter or support girl scouting because of GSA's policies. These are all facts to me, please don't insist on documentation or a notarized affidavit. There is an alternative conclusion to the statistics that you provide on the differences of opinion between generations... People generally become more conservative as they age. I had a much more tolerant attitude toward all types of depravity when I was young and foolish and childless. Maturity and concern for my children has taken my opinions in another direction. Why is cub scouting in decline? If it is, my anecdotal evidence from the past three years is competition from sports. There are many more opportunities to participate in sports throughout the year and at an earlier age than were available when I was a boy. Also, Dads are generally more interested in sports than scouting skills so they tend to guide their boys in that direction. Just my opinion. :-) "There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." -Benjamin Disraeli