SMT224

Just back from a week-end camping trip with my daughter's Girl Scout Troop. Lots of rain, but the girls did great. The Troop recently combined with another GS Troop that was on the verge of folding, and this was the first activity with everyone. The girls were nervous about the meshing, but it went really well and they all got along great. They liked camping and want to do more. In a lot of ways, the preparations and execution of this camping trip was similar to the Boy Scouts - from packing up and setting up camp and Saturday activities to packing up and cleaning up. But the way girls and boys are at camp is very different. The one time those of us who are leaders in the Boy Scouts and also have a daughter in Girl Scouts brought our daughters on a Boy Scout camping trip it was not out right disaster, but it wasn't a good situation. Both the boys and girls became very different - the boys showing off & acting like idiots and the girls ignoring each other and flirting with the boys. And I don't think either group meant to do it, as they have know each other outside of Scouts for years, but it just happened. Afterwards, we said never again. Watching the girls get along so well on this camping trip just reenforced this notion - that sometimes boys just need to be with boys and girls need to be with girls.

I'm a Boy Scout Leader, and also involved in my daughters Girl Scout Troop.

The Boy Scouts meet all year primarily because of camping - we camp every month irregardless of the weather or anything else. I'd say the boys become sort of obsessed about it. It is their favorite thing to do, so we do as much as possible. The two weekly meetings before a camping trip are almost exclusively focused on preparations, and the meeting after the trip focuses on clean up and discussing how the trip went. Of course not all the boys go on all the trips, but out of a Troop of 35 we have 10 - 20 on every camping trip. It takes a while for the new Scouts who have crossed over from Cubs to get into the swing, and some who do not like camping so much never do, but those who do really like it. So we don't think about it being summer or winter, we just think about what we need to do for the next camping trip.

I'm the "Camping Dude" for my daughters Girl Scout Troop (girls are 14-16), and am attempting to infuse the same kind of camping program in her Troop. We have been camping about 4 times a year, and the girls seem to like it. Before my involvement, they only did cabin camping, but now are getting into tent camping and all that goes with it. Again, once the date for the camping trip has been set, nothing matters other than getting ready for it and doing it.

I realize this is different from what goes on with the younger Scouts, but it's what drives the Troops I'm involved in to meet during the summer.

All the $700 billion will do is temporarily prop up the status quo and ensure the CEO's get their multi-million dollar golden parachutes. Plus, it'll ensure we don't have any funds to fix bridges and highways, or explore alternative energy, or fund libraries, or scientific research. This is pure big business (Republican) greed and the Democrats are being naive and spineless as usual. One expects trickle down, and the other trickle up - neither works! True capitalism? Let the current financial and banking industry die, and from the ashes will come forth banking to serve the American people - not the ultra-rich.

resqman -

Can you pass on any documentation regarding your "Parent Orientation"?

I'd be interested in what the 6-8 hours of training consists of.

Thanks!

The bottom line for our Troop is the Scout Law. At Troop meetings, and at any Troop activity, all of us are bound by that Law. As Scoutmaster, I am the Rules Police, as are the other adult leaders, SPL, PL and their assistants. Both the Scouts and adult leaders understand that a Troop activity is different than life out on the streets. Not that we all don't try to follow the Scout Spirt in our everyday life, but at meeting or on a camp-out, we all work to enforce the Scout Law. I know (from experience) that Scouts are disappointed if I do not call them out when they push too far doing something that is clearly outside the Law. I learned early on that being a "nice guy" really isn't. Over the years, the more clearly we define and enforce the Law, the better they like it. It provides a safe harbor in this chaotic world. The same goes for adults - any adult on a camp-out or other Troop activity is completely bound by the Scout Law. This includes parents and any visiting district or council Scouters. Once they walk into our camp, no one is exempt. To me this simplifies this discussion as to who follows what rules - everyone follows the Scout Law in everything!

The problem I have with all the extreme partisan fighting that goes on is how quickly real issue that face all of us are dropped in favor of seemingly arbitrary and capricious mud slinging. The recent lipstick on a pig shenanigans are a perfect example. The fact of the matter is that both democrats and republicans have worked together to make America the great country it is. Each side brings important points of view to the table, and we would be less without the constructive disagreements that come with such dialog. Most know and understand this, and yet the extremists on both sides become so vehement that it almost seems they are calling for the total elimination of the other. Would we be better off in a one party dictatorship? I dont think so. The fact that all republicans are corrupt liars and all democrats are spineless wimps just adds to the richness that makes America the most incredible country in the world. And anyone that disagrees with me on these matters of undisputable and undeniable truths is just a backwards izan. So there!

Report from Green Bar:

The Scouts want to keep the red shoulder loops for the SPL and ASPL, have one red and one green for the PL and APL, and green for the rest of the Troop. They also want the adult leadership keep the red shoulder loops. Does anyone know if we can we do this? Or do we all have to move to the green shoulder loops?

As to the rest of the new uniform -- they don't like the shirt, but understand that it's the shirt that is and we will eventually move to it as new Scouts come in to the Troop and Scouts grow and need a new shirt. They want to stay with the red numbers and keep the rest of the non-centennial uniform (NCU) for the rest of their Scouting career.

So for now, our transition looks to be gradual - shoulder loops in the near-term, the rest as Scouts need a new shirt or pants.

We will discuss at the Green Bar this evening, but here is what I put out in our 9/1 Newsletter:

"Last month, the Boy Scouts of America introduced a new centennial uniform which includes new shirts, pants, and socks. The overall color tone of the centennial uniform is green, with green shoulder loops, numbers, and socks. Troops are not required to adopt the new uniform and colors. Please DO NOT rush out and buy a new uniform! Each Troop will decide how, when, and if they adopt the new uniform styles and colors. However, if you do need a new shirt, pants or socks, it's ok to get the new things, but for now stick with the red shoulder loops and red numbers. More on this after we discuss in Green Bar and Troop Committee."

I'll let you know what comes out of Green Bar...

Thanks for the info & and perspectives on this. I'm not interested in making waves at the National level or challenging the over all Girl Scout program. I've just been wondering, so appreciate the reply's. I offer my ideas and experience to the leaders of my daughters Troop, and some are taken and some are not. Then I go off to my "Man Tent" in the "Man Area" and keep my mouth shut. I agree that girls are very different than boys - in addition the already described things, there is no way boys would sit on each others laps and brush each others hair!

My daughter is also on my case to start a Venture (or is it Venturing?) Crew. I don't know why I haven't jumped at - it's not like I'm doing all that much... father to 5 kids, husband, Scoutmaster, full time job, Girl Scout Camping Dude, among other things! My 14 daughter can't understand it... "Come on Dad, just start one!" I guess it'd only be an hour a week, so maybe...

Cape Henlopen in Delaware

http://www.destateparks.com/chsp/chsp.htm

Great in spring, very early summer, or the fall.

Terrible bugs & ticks in summer.

Youth site is a nice open field with a water spigot and portables, beach is great, WWII guns and watch towers are really neat. A good place for bikes. Explore the Delaware bay during low tide.

Hi -

I've been a Boy Scout leader for the past 10 years (with my 3 sons in Scouting), but only recently have become a Girl Scout leader for my daughters Troop. I am officially know as the "Camping Dude". I've done lots of Boy Scout-like camping and outdoor activities with the girls, including tent camping (they had only done cabin camping before), camp fire cooking, and teaching knife, axe and saw skills.

I've noted that there are quite a few differences between the GSA and BSA, but the one that confuses me the most is the way the GSA handles summer camp. In the Boy Scouts, summer camp is a time of bonding for the Troop - we are all in the same camp site, eat in the dining hall together, play camp-wide games together, and hang out together. It really strengthens the Troop and the leadership of the Senior Patrol Leader and Patrol Leaders.

But for the GSA, no such summer camp exists. The girls are told to sign up for camp on their own, and then be randomly tossed into a cabin with a bunch of girls from other Troops. Not that this situation doesn't create new friendships and no doubt participation in fun activities. But it does nothing to strengthen the Troop itself. One girl from our Troop went to summer camp and said it was ok, but not so great because she didn't know anyone. My daughter is green with envy when we talk about Boy Scout camp and sleeping in tents and everything.

Does anyone know why GSA does this? Why isn't there an option for the entire Troop to go and be together at summer camp?

Also, whilst I rant, why isn't there a leadership structure in the Girl Scouts like the Boy Scouts. By being a Patrol Leader and then the Senior Patrol Leader, the boys learn lifelong lessons in leadership. But this doesn't seem to be part of the GSA at all. Why aren't we using this opportunity to teach girls to be leaders too?

Any insights for this old Boy Scout oriented brain will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!!

I just got back from our weekly Troop meeting, and it was great - 35 boys looking good in full Class A, most working on menu's and packing chuck boxes for our upcoming camping trip, others working on perfecting knots. The Scouts talked about the upcoming 2009 planning sessions, Troop elections, and the October & November camping trips. It was a bunch of guys happy being Scouts.

No republicans, no democrats, no conservatives, no liberals - no arguments -- just Scouts!

That's where it's at folks. That's why we're here. And I know all of you know just exactly what I'm taking about - and that makes all of us brothers, despite our various views on these other things. Let it go for now! First and foremost, we're Scouters!

Let him go. You cannot change your program to fit someone who will probably leave anyway. Some boys do not like camping, and like others have said, there are other Scout activities, but this one sounds like he has a number of issues that that go well beyond any possible reasonable accommodation.

95% of the boy in our Troop love camping and so we do a lot of camping. One of the Webelos who crossed over several years ago did not like camping so he left and joined a Troop that does alot of Scouting activities, but minimal camping. It worked fine and everybody's happy.

As hard as it may be for Bob White and Kraut-60 to believe, this is not a republican vs democrat issue. It's not a right vs left issue. You guys are standing in the forest arguing over tree names. And BrentAllen, you're doing a fine job describing a tree, but I'm talking about the forest here! I'm talking about something that I fear will affect all the trees.

Bob White -

The issue is this... within both political parties there are spin machines that soften anything negative that a particular member or candidate may do. Right or wrong, they really are not allowed to be human - everything they do is judged and spun. Sometimes they do things so dumb that that they spin out of control - like Clinton did with that intern. The problem with this vast spin machine is that things that are clearly wrong are buried or softened through language so they don't negatively affect the parties standing with the public.

Now we have a situation where the daughter of one of the candidates is found to be out of bounds. The spin machine kicks in and the moral issues are softened. That is the problem. So now they push teen pregnancy away with language implying that this is no big deal, it's normal, it happens, don't get upset about it.

My issue is compromising moral values in order to win a political race. A significantly moral issue is being shoved aside and buried because it is more important to elect the candidate. And what is the end result? Condoning a behavior that has been softened because it was more important to get someone elected.

Hmmmm... Let me try again...

How do we deal with compromising moral values in order to win a political race?

This is not an abortion issue, it is not a republican vs democrat issue. It so happens that the spotlight is on the current republican candidate, but it could just as well be happening to a democratic candidate.

It appears to me that a significant moral issue is being or soon will be shoved aside and buried because it is more important to elect the candidate.

Hey Roster7 -

I'll tell you what a "crock" is - turning this discussion into a debate on abortion and capital punishment!

Amazing how those two idea can instantly polarize any discussion!

I suggest you start another thread and debate those issues as much as you want.

But thats not the point of this discussion!

The point of my initial post was not to set off a fire storm of accusations with regard to politics, especially the always hot button abortion issue. Here we are swinging away, and as far as I can see, missing the point entirely.

All of us Scouters work with kids to instill some sense of character. I personally see moral degradation all around us, and believe Scouting is a real positive force to stem this tide. However, as important as a Republican victory may be, is it worth pushing a teen pregnancy aside?

I know that some in this forum will now bare their teeth and growl what we have already discussed - that she is doing the best she can in a difficult situation, that the family has addressed the matter and dealt with it and should now be left alone, that this can be used as a positive lesson for other kids to abstain or be faced with a similar dilemma.

All of that rhetoric looks hard and well at the tree. But I'm talking about the forest - the overall broad idea that we are allowing desire for a political outcome to shove aside a significant moral issue.

Did the Republican strategists sit down and think - "Hey let's find us a VP candidate with a pregnant daughter 'cause we want to condone teenage pregnancy!!"? Of course not.

But they did think carefully about who was to be the VP pick, and in choosingSarah Palin, they did get some baggage - as comes with all humans. In order to make the candidate palatable to the public, they need to spin any of that baggage that could be perceived as negative as either positive or not so bad. Some of the baggage they got is a pregnant teenager - by spinning it as ok or not so bad, they are in effect, condoning it.

My point here is not just to look a the tree (Bristol Palin), but what message this sends to the forest.

Like it or not, this has everything to do with politics.

It's easy to focus on Bristol Palin and say that she is doing the best she can with a difficult situation, which of course she is - she's taken the best course available and may indeed provided a safe and caring environment for her child. It's easy to say that we are all sinners so don't throw a stone. But that's not the issue here.

What I'm talking about is the example it sets - what are the girls in my daughters Girl Scout Troop to think if it's ok for Bristol to get pregnant? What are the boys in my son's Boy Scout Troop to think? That it's ok to get a girl pregnant? The truth is, 17 not a good age to get pregnant - neither for the girl or the baby. And then there's the whole issue of emotional maturity.

What is upsetting to me is that by saying that she doing the best she can and let's just leave her alone, the Republican Party is not just condoning her pregnancy, but any unwed pregnancy at the age of 17. The problem is the example it sets and the message it sends.

I understand that the GOP believes that Palin is a good addition to the McCain ticket and will pull in the support of a number of conservative groups, including the religious right. But do they know what they are doing by pushing this aside as if it normal behavior and no one should worry about it? Getting pregnant is not ok! Getting pregnant out of wedlock is not ok. But now all this is ok because they want McCain/Palin to get elected?

I hated Brussels Sprouts when I was a kid, until, when I was 4 or 5, my big brothers enlightened me. In their infinite wisdom they explained that these things were really not vegetables but martian brains. They cut one open and we examined it carefully, and then we all ate brains! I thought it was great and "martian brains" became an instant favorite!

Unfortunately, this explanation did not work so well with my own kids... they'd still rather eat snot!

A couple more thoughts on this...

1 - We have a kid in our Troop who joined Scouts late (14), and has enjoyed non-merit badge activities the past 3 summer camps, earning only 2 mb's per camp. He always signed up for 4 or 5 classes, but ditched some of the classes or showed up only part of the time and got partials. Now he is 17 and will be turning 18 next April. Despited having advanced in rank, he does not have enough merit badges to earn Eagle. While he acts like he doesn't care, the older Scouts have used his situation as motivation to ensure they come back with camp with enough merit badges so they never end up in his situation. I talk to all Scouts about this and remind them it is up to them to to ensure they both earn the necessary rank and sufficient merit badges for Eagle.

2 - While I do not have a problem with a Scout "taking a break" and not having a merit badge class either in the morning or afternoon, I do have a problem if they are hanging around our camp alone or with only one adult. If they go hiking, fishing, finishing partial merit badges, or working on advancement, fine. But just hanging around the camp or trading post leads to trouble, and that's what they can get sent home for.

As our Troop has grown, we have found a Parent Coordinator to be an excellent part of our program. The Parent Coordinator is a Committee Member and provides parents with a clear access point into the Troop as well as ensuring a consistent message. The Parent Coordinator meets with the new Webelos parents, and then holds two parent meetings during the year. This way, all our parents are on the same page, and get the same information. In 2009, we will also have a parents meeting on summer camp. This person is also the contact point for camp out info and can contact parents if necessary.

The Adult Leadership, working closely with the Green Bar (PLC) set clear requirements for leadership positions after way too much vagueness. This has been extremely well received by the Scouts. They really appreciated a clear set of rules that lets them know how things are and that the rules are equal and fair to all. The term for each leadership position is 6 months. PL's can be re-elected. SPL usually becomes JASM. ASPL may or may not become SPL, depending on his qualificatons. The Green Bar also set qualifications to be in a Patrol... see below.

Our Troop is large enough to accommodate these rules - we have 35 Scouts now, and another 11 are expected to crossover next April.

SPL - Star Scout, 4 years in Troop, has held other leadership position, attended or will attend Troop JLT & attended or will attend NYLT, attends 85% of all Troop meetings, all Green Bar meetings, 75% of outings and service projects.

ASPL - 1st Class & 3 years in Troop, attended or will attend Troop JLT, attends 75% of all Troop meetings, all Green Bar meetings, 50% of outings and service projects.

PL for middle /early high school school Patrols - 13, 1st Class & 2 years in Troop, attends 75% of all Troop meetings, all Green Bar meetings, 50% of outings and service projects.

PL for younger Scout Patrols - 12, Tenderfoot & 1 year in Troop, attends 75% of all Troop meetings, all Green Bar meetings, 50% of outings and service projects.

Patrols:

high school Patrol: 16 & 1st Class; 15 & Star; 14 & Life; SPL; ASPL; past SPL or ASPL

middle /early high school school Patrols: 13 & 2nd Class, or 15

younger Scout Patrols: Scout