SMT224

"We have a saying we're operating at the speed of girls," Connell said. It became clear 10 years ago that girls were no longer into pitching tents. Now they prefer "yurts," circular huts modeled after the homes of Central Asian nomads but featuring Western amenities like electricity and handicap accessibility. "These are 21st Century girls," says Connell. "They, at the very least, want to be near a cell phone tower."

I don't know who these "21st Century girls" are, but the girls in my daughters Girl Scout Troop want to do the same thing the boys in my sons Boy Scout Troop want to do - go camping, pitch tents, make big fires, and play with knives. Our best camping trips have been those far away from cell towers and other 21st century distractions where the girls can focus on hiking, exploring nature, collecting and chopping up wood, cooking a really good dutch oven stew, and sitting around the campfire as the stars above show themselves. And I can say the exact same thing about the boys. Sure the boys don't sit on each others laps and brush their friends hair, but girls and boys are surprisingly similar when it comes to a desire to explore nature and learn Scout skills.

Yes, there are plenty of distractions, but given a choice, they will often make the time to go camping, sacrificing sports and other week-end activities. Of course, this is not all girls or all boys - some kids just don't like to camp, and that's fine - there are plenty of other things for them to do. But for those that do like to camp, don't force them into 21st century program when they are happy with a 19th century experience!

Lem-Jeff,

In looking back over the messages in this Thread, your anti-Scouting diatribe strikes me as that of a food critic who reads about a restaurant, and maybe sees a few pictures, but never enters the place or tastes anything. Nevertheless, this critic has no problem telling everyone whats good and bad about the place despite having never experienced any of it!

It appears you've made your choice as to what you want, which is to say no to Scouting. Well, fine. Good luck in finding what is best for you and your sons.

But it does makes me wonder, what is your purpose at this forum? Is your intent to explore and learn about Scouting because you are truly interested? Based on your words, it seems you have made your mind up - you are anti-Scouting. You continue to post messages putting down Scouting. Why? To let those of us who are involved in Scouting in on your "wisdom"? To persuade us to abandon Scouting? Or what? Do you hate Scouting so much that youre here just jerk the chains of those committed to Scouting?

Quite frankly, you are way out of line to make the kind of statements you have made in this forum with absolutely no experience in Scouting as a boy or as an adult leader. Yes, it really does make a difference to walk a mile in someone elses shoes to gain a true understanding. An arm chair critic such as your self can only understand so much.

Here's an idea: Put your energy into an activity that works for you and your sons, and stop wasting your time writing nonsense!

Unfortunately the bully's I have dealt with are also excellent liars. This makes it hard to believe what they say - whether the swear they did not do it or that they have learned their lesson and will never do it again.

Early on in my days as Scoutmaster, an Assistant Scoutmaster and I witnessed a Scout bullying another Scout. When we sat him down with his parents (who were long time leaders in the Troop), he completely denied the incident and said he was not even in the area at the time. When we said we witnessed the entire incident, the parents said they believed their son 100% and accused us of bullying him! It was surreal. We should have thrown him out then and there, but we decided to let it go and give him a break, and he went on to do far worse before we finally expelled him. I have since learned not to tolerate such behavior, and the Troop is much better off without kids like that.

I was in a very similar situation with the Family Life MB just last week. The MBC had started the class back in May, and had filled out the blue cards, but I had not signed the front for one Scout. I signed the card and dated it the day in May when the class had started. Since the class was done and the Scouts had completed all the requirements and the MBC had signed off on the blue card, I signed the back of the cards as well.

My understanding is the by signing the front of the blue card as SM, I am not only giving the Scout permission to do the MB, but also letting the MBC know that I believe this Scout can do this particular MB.

When I first became Scoutmaster, there were a couple Scouts who were real bully's - and they were also sons of an adult leader who had grown up in the Troop. It took me much longer than it should have to call them on their antics, and finally expel them from the Troop. Unfortunately, they caused a huge amount of damage and we lost a number of good Scouts before they left the Troop. Once they were finally gone, it was as if the sun had come out from the clouds. The remaining Scouts relaxed and we had so much more fun once their rein was over.

It is very difficult dealing with bullying that you do not witness. Bully's will do their best to make sure you do not see what they are doing and then look straight in you eye and lie about what happened.

Your description of the event is enough for a very transparent board of review. A Scout is honest, and if he lies, at the very least a suspension is in order. If there is honesty and genuine remorse, he may have learned his lesson and understand that what he did was very wrong.

Your correct, have a good discipline policy will help enforce the Scout Law at all Troop events. Here is ours:

Instruction A Senior Scout or Adult Leader will request the Scout stop or to change behavior or actions because they are not acceptable for the current activity, are discourteous, or are unsafe. Alternative to the inappropriate behavior will be offered

Warning If the Scout disregards an the Senior Scout or Adult Leader, he will put the Scout on notice that a recurrence of the discourtesy or lack of self-discipline will result in a Scoutmaster Conference or a Troop Committee Behavioral Board of Review.

Disciplinary Scoutmaster Conference The Scoutmaster or an Assistant Scoutmaster will counsel a Scout who continues to disregard instructions and warnings that his behavior is not consistent with the principles of Scouting and is unacceptable to the leaders of the Troop. The Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster will try to reach an understanding with the Scout as to why the Scout's behavior is unacceptable and to receive a commitment from him to change his behavior.

Behavior Board of Review Scouts who are continually in need of counseling by Scoutmasters or who exhibit extreme discourtesy or lack of self-discipline will sit before a Troop Committee Behavior Board of Review. The Board will make a decision concerning the Scouts continued participation in Troop activities based upon the behavioral history and attitude of the Scout being reviewed. Options available to the Board include, but are not limited to, the following:

* Defining a course of action and a time period during which the Scout must demonstrate good behavior.

* A leadership or service requirement may be established by the Board.

* Requiring a parent to accompany the Scout at Troop activities, meeting, campouts, etc.

* Suspending the Scout from Troop activities, such as campouts or meetings.

* Dismissal of the Scout from the Troop.

As you say, the problem is not the Scout, but the parental units. But from the perspective of the leaders involved in the altercation, they are one and the same. My experience in similar situation has shown me that absolutely transparency in the near-term is critical in dealing with this issue. If this happened in our Troop, I would immediately call a meeting of all adult leaders - both Scoutmasters and Committee members. The Troop must have a unified position and speak with one voice.

Once the Troop position has been established, the problematic parent should be invited to a meeting with Troop leadership - the Scoutmaster, Committee Chair, at least, and others. This meeting should clearly send the message to the parent that any kind of touching of any Scout is completely off limits at any Scout function. If wrestling is desired, fine, but not at a Scout function. Ever. If the Parental unit has a problem with this, point to the door - let them find another Troop. The parent and Scout should leave if they can not behave, not the leaders.

I agree with other posts in that you must talk to folks one-on-one. Trying to recruit in a group setting has never worked for me. Several years ago, I passed out a list of leadership positions that the Troop needed at a parents meeting. Awkward silence followed my query as to who would like to fill the positions. No one stepped forward and it was embarrassing for all.

What I found does work is to carefully develop a scope of work for a specific job and approach a parent with a personal request. This gets them in the door. Have them fill out the volunteer application once they have agreed to do the job. Once they have successfully completed the assignment, complement them and thank them, and then assign them something else. In a few months/years, they will be so far in that there's no turning back. You will have a good leader.

Parents that complain can be a good source of adult leadership. Let them know that you agree with them and that sure is a real problem. Then step back and develop a scope of work that addresses the problem and a week or two later approach that parent and discuss his/her involvement in addressing that specific issue. For example, one mom approached me full of anger that some Scouts were making a mess in the Church kitchen washing some pans after a camping trip. She is now the official kitchen monitor and works with the boys on keeping their equipment clean. She is also open to other related assignments.

Complainers either will work to fix the issue they are concerned about, or stop complaining and go away when assigned a task. I have found that the fact they are willing to verbalize an issue often means they care enough to actually do something about it. It's worth while to work with them as they will either shut-up or become an amazing resource.

We have a general Troop rule that we always depart for any camping trip in class A shirt - no neckerchief, jeans are fine. On the way to summer camp we are in full Class A with the Troop neckerchief & hat, appropriately green shorts, Scout sox. We usually stop for lunch at a fast food place on the way to summer camp, and it's impressive - 30 Scouts & 6 adults all in uniform. We take over the place, and get lots of smiles and nods from the older folks, looks of jealousy from teens, and simple awe from young boys.

FScouter - Program defines everything. The core budget of our 2009 program comes from the activities the boys want to do - camping at county, state, and national parks - hiking, Klondike, Camporee. Then we look at what's needed to support that, such as tents, propane, etc. We hope our fund raiser will cover it all. The last several years have been very good, so we were able to buy more tents and a new trailer. This year was not so good, so we will need to either do another fund raiser, or change some of the more costly activities.

Bob White - Isn't it amazing what a thrifty Scout can do!

So it appears that there are 4 general ways money is collected from Scouts or Scout families to keep our programs running:

-- Registration or Recharter fees. This includes the registration fee ($10) and insurance ($1). Some Troops include Boys Life in this, some have it as a separate cost. Some Troop assess monies beyond the necessary $11 to cover Troop operating expenses.

-- Weekly or monthly dues. This appears to range from $0.50/meeting to $10.00 month.

-- Camping and activity fees. Either fund raisers cover this or Scouts are charged the actual cost.

-- Summer Camp fees. Actual cost or Fund raisers can cover part.

Once the funds are collected, either from the Scouts and families (above) or from fund raisers or other donation, how do Troop utilize those funds? How much do you spend annually?

This is on my mind, as we just completed our 2009 Troop budget. In addition to activity costs, our Troop buys and owns equipment such as tents, stoves, dinning fly, water containers, coolers, cooking equipment, and a trailer. We also buy Troop t-shirts, neckerchiefs, and hats. Scouts are given a t-shirt on joining the Troop, a hat after their first camping trip, and a Troop neckerchief on departure for summer camp. If they loose any of these, they are charged the actual cost of the item. The Troop also buys propane and miscellaneous camping supplies such as bug juice and paper towels.

Our 2009 activities and expected costs (not including summer camp) came to about 2K! Seems like a lot, but for a Troop of 40 Scouts, this comes out to $50/Scout -- most of which is covered by our fund raiser and dues. When I think about all the adventure and growth opportunity they get out of a year of Scouting, it is an incredible value!

How does this compare to other Troops?

For our Troop that $8 goes into the general fund which buys patches and supports camping and activity fees. This can included propane, campsite fees, and other activity support. We try to keep camping or activity costs for the Scouts to an absolute minimum and keep our budget funded through our wreath sales.

We assess each Scout a $30 registration fee that covers Council costs and Boys Life. For years and years and years there was a $0.50 Dues to be paid by the Scout at each and every Troop meeting. Scouts need to be paid up in Dues to go on any activity or outing. Just recently, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, our Committee raised the Dues to $1.00, effective 2009. These monies, along with that generated by our annual wreath fund raiser, pretty much pays for our activity and Troop costs. We are heretics in that we do not do popcorn - ever.

The Scouts in our Troop love to camp - so we camp alot, every month except December, but they still want more. Video games? They'd rather camp! And with camping comes the need for Scout skills like fire building, cooking, orienteering, and knot tying among plenty of others. And to make the camping trips happen, they become leaders because they have to do the planning, organizing, and logistics. To make it all happen, they have to deal with the financial realities of fund raising and activity costs. They learn to be leaders by teaching, motivating, and guiding other boys. And through all this, they learn that the Scout Law is the absolutely best way to get all this done.

We spend our months preparing for camping trips, cleaning up from camping trips, evaluating camping trips, and then doing it all over again. By doing this month after month, as well as learning through rank advancement and merit badges, these boys become leaders. They become men.

I've been an adult leader in our Troop for nearly 10 years, Scoutmaster for most of that time. By observation I have concluded that Scouting works better than anything else these days to give boys what they need. The fact of the matter is that teenage boys need to play with fire and knives and throw things. They need to exercise, explore, and eat. Scouting is where they can do that. No where else.

We do an extreme winter camping trip in January and allow only 8 Scouts to go. Scouts must be at least 13 and 1st Class to go, then we give priority to those who have not gone before, then rank and age. We always have more Scouts interested than there are slots, so we do a lottery. This has always been for 4 or 5 more 13 yr 1st Class Scouts than there is room for. Once the 8 are chosen - at a Troop meeting so everyone knows whats going on and sees that it's fair - then the deposit is requested by a particular date. If the deposit is not received by that date, that Scout is out, and the next one from the lottery is in. We are very clear before the process is started so everyone can see what is going on and they understand what the consequences are for not getting the deposit in (which has never happened!) The younger Scouts are very excited about going, and talk about it years before they qualify. I know this is exclusionary, but the boys like it, and look forward to their turn to go and be one of the Winter Camping 8. All the Scouts who want to go will eventually go. Since not all Scouts like camping in the extreme cold, it works out.

In reference to the dilemma faced by asm411, I suggest a lottery - toss the names of qualified Scouts in a hat and pick 6. My experience is that the boys will see that it's fair and be ok with it. Those who don't get picked can have priority next year.

Eamonn -

I'm feeling pretty confused at the moment too!

The Father I referred to who is an adult leader (and apparently is out of the loop) is the Father of the Scout who stole the iPod.

Update #2

I just had a call from a Committee member who strongly believes this is not something for the Committee to take up, and should be handled by the Scoutmaster. This Committee member further stated that the way I should handle it is to have the kid stand up in front of the Troop and apologize (in addition to returning the head phones).

This year (summer of 2008), we went to Camp Bashore (www.campbashore.org), which we all liked alot, so are going back in 2009. The food was good and abundant, merit badge classes and program areas good, and the camp layout was nice. I especially liked the focus on Patrols - our campsite is arranged into Patrol tent areas and the camp-wide games were set up for Patrols to work together. We ate in the dining hall, but the Troop next to us did Patrol cooking and said it was set up well and they really liked it. It's about 25 miles NE of Harrisburg, PA.

Update...

Have been away at a Scouting event, so have not been able to get on the computer until today...

This situation is even stranger than I originally reported. It turns out the Moms of the two Scouts got together and did an exchange of the iPod. The Mom of the Scout who stole the iPod has apparently not told his Dad as he recently got laid off, and she is afraid he will take it out on the kid. So how to get parental involvement when the Dad is being kept out of the loop? Add to this that the thief gave back the iPod, but kept the ear phones, which has the iPod Mom pissed as she has just bought them at $30. She now wants me to get her son's ear phones back. The thief has not been back to a Troop meeting since this all occurred, so I have not had a chance to talk to him. On top of this is that the Dad is a registered adult leader in the Troop, but only goes on 1 or 2 outings a year, and shows up to Troop meetings very randomly. What am I supposed to say next time he shows up - "Your son has been suspended, but you're not to know why."?????

The stealing of the iPod was bad enough, but keeping the ear phones really irks me and I feel like recommending a year-long suspension to see if he can grow up some. I know that is extreme and will likely result in him not ever coming back. But, maybe not such a bad thing, as no one wants to tent with him now.

What a mess!

Eamonn & Lisabob - Good Advice! Thanks. Transparency seems critical here.

I'm inclined to recommend that this Scout be suspended from the next several camping trips. But I feel like he should do some more than simply not go on camping trips, as he probably goes on every third of fourth camping trip anyway, and missed summer camp last year. Something more than just taking something away he may not be that interested in anyway. Like a kind of restorative justice I guess...

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice.

This is not the first time this kid has had issues. I've had to talk to him several times about unScout-like behavior in the past, and have taken his Tote-n-Chip away twice. Part of the complication is that he is one of the few black kids we have in a mostly white Troop. He is very sensitive about racial issues, and has several times told me that "it's a black thing, and you don't understand" when I have asked him to remove non-Scout uniform clothing items. He once commented that a board game we were playing on a camping trip that had black & white pieces was "racist".

The first thing I want to do is sit down and have a talk with him and try to understand why he did it. However, he was not at the last Troop meeting, so not sure when I will see him next. He tends to show up for a few meetings then be AWOL for several months. Needless to say, his advancement has been quite slow. I expect I will involve the PLC, and perhaps the TC, but first and foremost want to ensure the process and consequences are transparent and fair.

On a recent camping trip, a Scout in our Troop stole an iPod from another Scout. He apparently took it when he found it in their tent. The owner of the iPod told me he couldn't find his iPod, and we looked in his tent and in the car he was riding in, but we couldn't find it. After the camping trip, the thief tried to sell an iPod he "found" to another Scout, and despite several denials, the truth came out pretty quickly when confronted by both parents.

As Scoutmaster, I am now considering how best to deal with this, as it did happen on a Troop outing by a Scout who was bound by the Scout Law. I'm wondering how best to impose a "correction" on this Scout to both ensure there is a clear consequence for his action, as well as to help him learn not to even think about doing something similar in the future.

What have other SM's done in similar circumstances?

Thanks!

A mom of one of the Scouts in our Troop actually did suggest we go to kilts as part of the uniform... it didn't go over real well, but she sent me this web site:

http://www.utilikilts.com/index.php?page_id=46

Something to go with the Haggis!

BTW, watch it on the Lutefisk! What better vehicle is there for butter intake?

Packsaddle - I agree with you 100%. The problem is, they are going to drop a huge amount of money to try and fix this, be it $700 or $300 billion. The question is, how best to spend that money? I am not feeling comfortable dumping it into the existing system that is clearly a failure.

GW - Thanks for the endorsement! I think I'd end up re-arranging government as a Scout Troop!

This whole thing reminds me of the beginning of the Iraq war - the Bush administration told us that we had to act fast because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that could be used at any time so we had to move immediately -- and we trusted and bought what very soon turned out to be total BS. Now, we are told that we have to act fast because terrible things will happen unless we give them $700 billion immediately. Trust us they say. Accountability? No time for that they say, just give us the money. Money that will be used to prop up failed institutions and ensure millions in golden parachutes.

Fooled me once, shame on you. Fooled me twice, shame on me.

Here's what to do - give everyone $200,000.

This adds up to $600 billion. This will solve our immediate problem because we can all pay off credit card debt, mortgages and infuse cash into the economy. This is far better than $700 billion going right into failed bankers pockets.