SMT224

All travel = Class A shirt, pants or shorts if possible, neckerchief required on the way to summer camp.

PLC ruling and enforced.

Given the choice, teenage boys will often take the path of least resistance. When we gave them an opportunity to get out of going to church, they took it. The form of taking this opportunity came when some Scouts (the Catholics) were told they were going to Mass, and the other Scouts would be doing a "Scouts Own" at camp. Suddenly there were a whole bunch of "Catholic" Scouts who really didn't have to go to Mass after all - allegedly their parents had told them they didn't have to go if they didn't want to. A frustrating experience for leaders after finding a church in the area, calling to verify Mass times, and setting up vehicles and drivers to take the Catholic Scouts to Mass.

After a couple of these experiences, we decided that if any went to Mass, we all went - Catholics and non-Catholics alike. We are very transparent in this and announce two-weeks before and then again a week before a camping trip that we will be attending a Catholic Mass either on Saturday evening or Sunday morning. We have had no non-Catholic Scouts, parents, or leaders raise any kind of objection to this.

Over the years we have shared Mass in tiny little old churches, huge brand new churches, and everything in between. Where ever we go, the congregations are always welcoming. Yes, we do smell like camp fire, and our uniforms are wrinkly, but the Scouts are respectful and reverent. The Catholic Scouts participate in communion, and the non-Catholics sit quietly. In some places we've been offered the use of flush toilets (a true blessing!), have filled our water containers, and have learned about local resources from friendly parishioners and priests.

We do not regret our decision that we all go to Mass. It's been a very positive experience for all of us to attend a church outside of our faith and away from home. It is a wonderful feeling to see the smiles of surprise and welcome on the faces of parishioners and priests when 30 Scouts, all in uniform, silently file into a small Church on a dark and stormy evening.

nolesrule -

So far that has not happened as going is so much part of the Troop culture, and is full embraced and led by the Scout Leadership. Such a refusal would first be dealt with by the PL, and then the SPL/ASPL. I would only be called in if these efforts failed. I think I would first try to understand why, and then discuss how we are all bound by the Scout Law, and that's that. Most kids go along with what the other kids are doing.

We are sponsored by a Catholic Church, and well over half of the Scouts are Catholic. We usually get back so Scouts can attend the 11:30 Mass, but a few times a year we attend Mass near where we camp. When we do this, everybody attends. Years ago, we made the mistake of just pulling the Catholic Scouts to go to Mass, and then discovering that they really didn't need to go to Mass 'cause their parents allegedly told them they didn't need to go. So now we all go and that's that. I let the non-Catholics know that I'm not Catholic either and lightening hasn't stuck once in the past ten years I've been doing this so they can just relax and enjoy the celebration of God.

I would actually prefer to do a Scouts own on Sunday morning in the beauty and quiet of our campsite, but attending Mass is absolutely critical for many of the Scout parents. Some will not allow their son to join us on a camping trip unless we can guarantee they will either attend Mass on the camping trip or be back in time for Mass at our Church. So, that's what we do.

oldisnewagain1 -

Your situation sounds much like mine... I did step up and become Scoutmaster - nearly nine years ago, and watched my older son earn his Eagle, and now watch my 13yr twins move through the ranks. We're getting ready for summer camp now, and do week-end camping every month but December. Since we joined the Troop over 10 years ago, I reckon I've spent a full year of my life sleeping in a tent!

And then, I'm the "Camping Dude" for my daughter's Girl Scout Troop (she is 15). We do tent camping 4 - 5 times a year. So at least 4 months every year I'm out camping twice a month.

Like the situation described by mac3mpc, my wife is very involved with both the Boy Scouts (Committee member) and Girl Scouts Troop (cookie mom). We are very much a Scout family, and it's a great adventure.

I agree with mac3mpc - get the rest of the family involved! You won't regret it, and after all, it's just an hour a week! ;-)

Pinkflame - Thanks for your perspective. This kid allegedly has ADHD, and appears to be on meds for that as well as the hydrocephalic issue. In my brief observation of him, he seems to be in la-la land most of the time with a goofy smile on his face. Nothing wrong with that, and as long as the Scouting experience is good for him, I'm fine. But, I do question whether or not he could report any kind of physical anomaly as he appears to be so heavily medicated that I'm not sure he wold notice.

Nevertheless, I fully intend to get written directions of his med use and what signs I and the other adults coming to camp should watch for if he is experiencing issues.

We check all the medicals before summer camp to ensure everything has been filled in correctly, that both the physician and parent have signed and dated the form appropriately, and none of the key items have been left blank. This one raised a red flag because of the illegibility issue and then that the mom had signed both places.

Many many summer camps ago, when the camp medic was checking the forms, he noted that none of the immunization dates were filled in for one Scout... who's mom, by the way, was a physician! I spend the next hour finding a place that my cell phone worked and getting the appropriate information from this kids physician! After that painful incident, we vowed to thoroughly check each and every medical form before departure.

So next time we hike the AT, do we just tell folks we're going to Argentina?

Thanks for all the replies...

We took care of the illegibility issues via telephone call and have clarified questions on the medical form. Once we get to summer camp, I will ensure the camp medic fully understands this kids issues. And if any health related problems arise, I'll be on the phone to Dr. Mom immediately.

He's a nice kid, and I hope he has fun at camp. Scouting may turn out to be the best thing for him. At this point, I think the best we can do is keep a close eye on him and hope for the best.

Nevertheless, I've just got that feeling somewhere down in the pit of my stomach about this one...

Similar to the situation described by highcountry, I've had Scouts who did the absolute minimum possible, were disruptive on campouts and meetings, goofed off on service projects, and then came to a SM Conference and demanded advancement. Sorry, but no banana. The Scout Spirit item is not signed off and he is sent off with plenty of words of encouragement to do better next time.

Most of these kinds of kids don't want to be there anyway, and have no intention of working to become a good Scout or make the Troop better. One kid in our Troop who was especially terrible had been told by his mom, who was desperate to see him make Eagle (so her car insurance rates would be lower), that he could do no other activities unless he went to Scouts. He found every excuse in the world to get out of meetings and outings, and was a bully and very disruptive when he did come. When I denied him advancement, he threw a temper tantrum, and then his mom ran to the Committee saying how mean I was and how I just didn't like her son. The Committee backed me up, and just a few months later he was involved in some significant vandalism on a camp out and was expelled from the Troop. His mom still felt her son was perfect and we just had it out for him.

It depends on the Scout - not the time he did a particular activity. It's the quality with which he conducts himself and how much of himself he puts into Scouting. For me, the POR times are a guideline. If a Scout has done good in that amount of time, I have no problem signing off and sending him off to the next rank. If a scout has been a slacker or disruptive or just not there, I have no problem sending him off to work a bit harder on POR activities. Often a good Scout will stick with a POR long enough to do a really good job at summer camp or on a service project or some other activity, which usually exceeds the BSA guidelines.

Well... finally got through to the MD Mom by phone.

Got clarification the medical issues - turns out he has water on the brain with a shunt that runs down his neck and chest and into his abdomen. She said he needs to avoid contact sports. NS!!

Not sure why she is not working, did not go into it, nor the status of her medical license. The conversation did not allow. This is the same parent I discussed in an earlier post (helicopter parents) who accused several Scouts of bullying her sensitive son (retracted after it turned out he just witnessed a confrontation between some Scouts).

What a pickle this is gonna be!!

Per several questions... yes, she signed as the parent, and then as the physician... No divorce so no custody issues... he went to Webelos camp, and the Webelos leader who was on that camping trip will be with us at summer camp, so will have someone along who knows him...

One of the medicals that was recently turned in for our upcoming summer camp describes a Scout with some significant medical issues and on more meds than I've ever seen anyone take. It is almost illegible and signed only by his mom (who apparently is an unemployed physician - or so she says).

We are a bit concerned about his issues in the first place, but are there any legal issues with his medical signed only by his mom?

To me, it's quality, not formulaic quantity.

And it depends totally on the Scout.

Some Scouts are a 100% Scout in any of the activities they engage in, and if they miss a few, no big deal. These Scouts score high on Scout Spirit because they are into Scouting and all the activities associated with Scouting. They like Troop meetings and they especially like camping. These guys are great leaders and are inspiring for everyone. they live Scouting all the time, not just on Troop activities.

Other Scouts, who may not really be into Scouting, but come because mom & dad hope it'll instill some character. Or they come to a few meetings and activities because they want to hang with some friends and barely put up with the rest of Scouting, and then spend most of their goofing off and getting out of work. These guys have very little Scout Spirit, and are very disappointed after a Scoutmaster Conference as they have come to think that should get their advancement just for showing up occasionally and semi-participating.

Parochial.

About 1/3 of the Troop attends the same school, so he knows many of the Scout in the Troop from school.

Had a parent come to our Committee Chair and Parent Liaison near the end of the meeting last night to say that the reason her son (one of six new crossed over Scouts) would not be going on this months camping trip is that he was bullied on the last camping trip (the first Troop camping trip any of the new Scouts had been on).

Well, of course "bullied" immediately raises all kinds of red flags and merits an immediate investigation. She and her son were very vague as to what happened. Having been on the camping trip, I (as SM) had not witnessed and blatant bulling, but of course that doesn't mean things don't happen out of sight of adult leaders. When we pushed for details, apparently two of the new Scouts had been throwing pine cones at a tent while a Scout was in there, and then decided to drop the poles on him. He reacted by going after the two new Scouts and her son witnessed this and felt threatened.

We stopped it before it got out of hand, and had the two apologize, and help the Scout put his tent back up. But apparently witnessing this incedent had "scarred" her son, and she didn't want him going on another camping trip where such things might happen again. He was never bullied himself, just saw a conflict between Scouts that upset him. But clearly she knew the trigger words to get everyone excited.

Well, goodness! Apparently she (and her son) expect all Troop activities to be conflict free! Her son is on all kinds of meds - a multi-pill regiment I had to administer morning and night, and is "sensitive". We just shook our heads on this one. I'm really not too upset he won't be heading out with us this evening!

Beavah - I agree that it may be best simply not to have video-game fests, as there is just too much room for problems to crop up.

However, I disagree with you about the leaders and Scouts have a hard time knowing which games were "M" and which were "T". It's very obvious as it printed on the box and game CD or cartridge. That's like saying you can't tell the difference between a beer and a coke because they both come in a can and are carbonated. The kids know they're playing an M game. So, yea, I'd be hard on all the leaders. If they couldn't control what games were being played, then they shouldn't have advertised it as Scout friendly.

And as far as the kid playing an M game, yea, he should have walked away, just like an underage kid at a party should walk away from a beer if someone offers it to him. If the expectation was put forth by by the Troop that there would be "no games rated above teen", then all the leaders should have ensured that expectation was met. The fact they did not do that, and then put all the blame on the kid was a significant mistake. They need to be held responsible for their actions.

I'm surprised the adult leaders came up with such a lame excuse.

This is like adults giving a party specifically for teenagers where alcohol ends up being available telling the parents of a drunk kid that their son had drank, so who is he to complain that there was alcohol there? And that the parents had no right to complain since their boy had broken the rules, too. This kind of BS wouldn't fly anywhere.

There was clearly an expectation that no "M" games would be played, so all of leaders - adults and Scouts should have done their utmost to see that this happened.

I would suggest a Committee / PLC / parents meeting, and if the parents who pulled their son out could summon the strength, attend and let all know why they left, and how disappointed they are with the Troop. They put their trust in the Troop, and clearly that trust was broken.

This has become an absurd discussion!

Laser Tag & Paint Ball have no place in the Scouting program - they are entertainment activities, and fit well under Baby Sitters of America (where adults feel compelled to accommodate the wants of kids, not the needs). Sure kids like to play these games, but they are not in any way, shape, or form part of the Boy Scout program. They do not do anything to teach outdoor skills, learn an appreciation of nature, develop character, or live the Scout Law. No way no how.

Just because kids want to play these games doesn't mean we need to accommodate that desire. They want to play Grand Theft Auto and watch stupid adolescent movies too, but these are not part of the Scouting program just because teens want to do them any more than Laser Tag & Paint Ball are part of the Scouting program just because they want to do them.

We have way too much to do with our camping program, service projects, and other Scout activities to even think about adding such a stupid activity. Why bother? What's the point? Because they want to? They can't get everything they want. Get over it.

If kids want to get together on their own time and do any of the dumb adolescent activities they find so desirable, fine, but these activities have no place in a Scouting program irregardless of whether G2SS prohibits or not.

From June 1, 2006 Washington Post...

Students Crave a Break on Cellphone Ban

Md. Teen's Idea to Allow On-Campus Use at Lunch Faces Strong Opposition

By Daniel de Vise

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, June 1, 2009

Juan Hendrix, an earth science teacher at John F. Kennedy High School in Silver Spring, knows that when it comes to cellphone use in schools, looks can deceive.

"A classroom can appear quiet and orderly, but it may be abuzz with chatter," Hendrix said.

Text messaging has spawned an era of uninterrupted contact among friends, especially young people. Students often tap out silent conversations beneath their desks, even though most Washington area public schools forbid them to use cellphones on campus during school hours.

To defuse the conflict, a Montgomery County student leader has proposed a compromise: Let students text while they eat.

Full story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/31/AR2009053102533_pf.html

Going back to the discussion of questionable images or info on a cell phone...

Most kids who have info on their cell phones they do not want others to see - I'm talking personal text messages or photos (not necessarily pornographic in nature) - can easily and very quickly lock their phone. A specific password is required to unlock and see anything on the phone.

If a kid is savvy enough to download porn, he will likely be able to almost instantly lock his cell so no one can see what he's got in there. If an adult walks in to a tent with a bunch of giggling boys, how likely is it he will really see what's on that phone? And, are you libel for harboring porn if you confiscate a phone that is password protected?

We have a pretty good turn out for camping - more than 3/4 usually go. Those who don't go have a solid excuse - sports, band, job, family obligation - something they cannot get out of. Most of our Troop activities focus on camping. We start preparing two weeks ahead of the monthly trip by asking who is going - if a Scout says "no", he's asked why, and gets a bit of chiding if the reason isn't good enough. Answers like "maybe" or "I'm not sure" or "I don't know" are all unacceptable by the other Scouts and are taken to be a solid "no". This peer pressure seems to result in a lot of the undecided Scouts suddenly deciding to go.

The Scouts spend most of the rest of the meeting working in Patrols preparing menus and getting their chuck boxes together. The Scouts are usually excited about the camping trip and about what they will be eating. At the meeting just before the camping trip Patrols decide who will be tenting with whom, and then those Scouts set up their tent to ensure it's in good shape and has all the poles & stakes they will need. Then they carefully pack it away and mark it with their names. The atmosphere is something like preparing for some kind of a military mission - the Scouts are excited and psyched. Those who are not going on the camping trip help out or work on other Scout skills, but it's obvious they wish they were going too.

After the camp-out we spend a meeting discussion how the trip went - the good & bad, and what we'll change or do differently the next time. Then chuck boxes are cleaned, any dirty pots, pans, or utensils are cleaned up. Tents are set up if they are damp and need to dry.

What this means is that out of a month of Troop meetings, 3 focus specifically and almost totally on the monthly camping trip. The forth meeting is used for advancement and Scout skills. Does this focus on camping enhance participation? I sure think so. The guys are really into camping, so that's what we do. They also heavily participate in program planning so have full buy-in on where we go and what we do. The Scouts we loose are those who discover they just don't like camping and all it entails.

RememberSchiff -

Just what I was looking for!

Thanks!!

Litmus test: does it fall outside the Scout Law?

For porno, the answer is clear - yes.

Therefore, a Scout has no business being in possession at any Scout activity.

Response? An immediate Scoutmasters Conference with all involved. Discuss how inappropriate it is and how it falls far outside of the Scout Law. Confiscate the phone and return after the activity with a warning to never do it again. Depending on the Scout and frequency of other similar incidents, parental involvement may or may not be appropriate.

Full Troop involvement will depend on how wide spread it is. Sometimes it's good to discuss it with everyone, sometimes better to keep it to those actually doing the peeking.

I wouldn't be too shocked - now it's cell phones, back in the day it was Playboy and similar magazines hidden under the sleeping bag.

But our response should be no different than it was back then - pornography is inappropriate for any Scout activity. Any the question to the involved Scout would be, "Do you understand that, or do I need to call your parents?"

Hi -

We are looking for a late summer or early fall (2009) NYLT in the mid-Atlantic region (VA, WV, MD, DE, PA).

Any leads whatsoever would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!!

eagle90 --

I agree. It's always something. If not that, then the other thing.

On our camp-out this past weekend, the senior Scouts forgot tent poles, the adult leader who was cooking breakfast brought the sausage & bacon but forgot eggs and bagels, and then we discovered we forgot the dish soap! We always forget something, but we just don't know what it's gonna be! What ever it is, the loss always stimulates innovation!

Then, at the campfire, one of the new crossover Scouts decided (w/o adult permission or knowledge, I might add!) to toast (actually burn) marshmallows at both ends of a stick. Once he had the flaming remnant on one end of the stick, he flipped the stick around to toast the other one. Unfortunately, the molten cinder wacked up against his lower fore arm and stuck fast. Needless to say, plenty of cold water was needed to get the hot marshmallow off, and then to treat 2nd degree blistering burns. First-aid lesson for all, and now we all know why you only use one end of the stick!