SMT224

I appreciate the comments...

One thing I see I left out of my original posting is that we had 12 Scouts and 3 Adults vs their 30 Scouts, (growing to 60 as the night wore on) and alot of adults... I counted 20 vehicles the next morning.

So size was a factor in our decision making... as well as their level of set up. It was clear they had been there for several hours.

As far as official intervention... the Rangers at this place are now M-F 8-5 due to State budget cuts. So any official would have been the county Sheriff, who would not have been too pleased to have to drive several miles of very unimproved dirt road so late at night. And would the outcome have been any different? I could imagine waiting an hours for a tired-looking Sheriff to ask me why I wanted them to move when there was a perfectly fine site we could set up into just down the road. We just decided that route was not worth it.

I think what would have made me feel a whole lot better if they had just been honest and said they took the site because they had such a large group and had hope no one else had reserved it or showed up. If they had apologized and then even invited us over for a cracker barrel or s'mores or the like I think the outcome would have been better for both camps.

A couple years ago we arrived at a site in the pouring rain and found another Troop just unloading. We were each about 20 Scouts and 4 adults, and when we called them on it and showed them where their actual site was they didn't hesitate - they loaded their stuff back in their trailer and moved. We were in our reserved site five minutes later.

So we now have two examples of what can happen when someone takes the wrong site... fodder for a SM minute! In the meantime, I am very careful that I get our Troop in the correct site!

Just got back from a Troop camping trip, and all in all, it was a good trip.

However, it didn't start out so good...

We pulled into a State Park we've camped at several times before, and this time reserved the one youth group site that has a pavilion. We arrived around 9:30 pm - it's a 2 hour drive for us.

To our dismay, there was already a Troop in our site! There were tents everywhere, a fire blazing, and the tables under the pavilion were covered with gear and and cooking equipment. I walked up to a couple of Scouters and a let them know we have reserved this site. They said they didn't know much about it, someone else had done all the reservations and just told them to set up here. I finally found the Scoutmaster, and he feigned ignorance, and said he thought this was where they were supposed to camp. When I ask him which site they had reserved, he told me, and it was clearly not the one they were in. Then he said they had 30 Scouts set up, and were expecting other 30 that night. He made it clear they were not going anywhere.

We went back to our vehicles, and had a quick adult leader conference. We decided to not to fight it, and set up in the site they were supposed to be in. It was a nice big site, and we'd camped there before, but no pavilion. But since rain wasn't in the forecast, we decided not to worry about it. A number of our Scouts were upset, and talked about a night time revenge raid. We used this as a opportunity to talk about our Troop taking the high road, and how just because someone wrongs you, revenge just makes you the one doing wrong. Everyone calmed down, and we set up camp and went to bed.

And, like I said, we had a good camp out, did some advancement, played with fire, and did a lot of cooking. But no one forgot that our site had been stolen from us, and everyone seemed to want to do something to rectify the situation. I don't think we'll ever forget that Troop number. I fully intend to call the Ranger Station in the morning and let them know what happened, so if any damage was done, or if the site was left trashed, our Troop won't be blamed.

The incident left us with a bad taste. As we drove back this morning, I wondered if I'd be feeling any better if I'd demanded they move. Would we have had a better time if we'd cleared them out and settled in the pavilion site?

What would you have done?

Thanks for the comments!

Just back from a Troop campout, made chicken and potato curry for the adults. It turned out great, if I may say so myself! And yes, did it on the fire, checking frequently. No burning. Scouts made all kinds of things and ate everything before I could get a taste! Difficulty this time was cleaning them, as we didn't have water to spare (had to haul it all in).

There's a great article in the recent edition of "Scouter" called Dutch Oven 101. It's a good primer on cooking with a Dutch Oven, and has the standard description of how to achieve and maintain temperatures by the number of charcoal briquettes placed under and on top of the oven.

I'm wondering how many out there follow the briquette path versus the way our Troop does it... what we call Dutch Oven Heresy.

We get a good hardwood fire going, let some good coals form, and put the DO either on the fire, or into the coals, and then with a shovel, put a few good scoops of coals on top. After what seems like about the right time, we pull it off the fire and set it next to the fire with nothing underneath, just the coals on top. A while longer, we'll open the DO, poke around a bit, and either put it back on the fire, or maybe put a fresh scoop of coals on top. We'll check it a couple more times until it looks done, and then eat it. Hopefully it's not burnt, and cooked all the way through.

Each time it's an adventure in cooking, and always different. The adults have two DOs, and each of our 5 Patrols have 1 DO. We do 90% of our cooking on the DO, all jostling for space on the fire, and checking to see how done things are. When things are done and great smells are wafting through the camp site, we encourage tasting other Patrols creations, if anything is left.

I've often thought of bringing briquettes and encouraging Scouts to actually follow the DO recipes, but they seem to having so much fun being heretics that I haven't.

How do other folks do the DO? Any other heretics out there?

"Poor manners, yes.

But is it "name calling" if it's true?"

So you suggest it's ok to call someone a liar if you perceive their words to be true? That is quite a charge, and you better make sure before uttering those words.

I don't see there is evidence to say the President was consciously lying in his speech last night. It sounded more like he was saying that we have a problem and let's work together to fix it.

To call people names because of something they might do at some point in the future is ridiculous! There has been no solid legislation and no language in place that could support such a charge.

Therefore, what is name calling when it's not true, when it cannot be true?

Defamation, Libel and Slander.

Such a remark and related behavior do not fit within the Scout Law.

Talking about dangers, doesn't anyone realize how dangerous a rope is? Talking about a weapon! How many have died through the use of rope - and not just as a state sanctioned execution device, but simple strangulation as well. And what about rope burns! The idea of letting teenagers play with such a hazard is unconscionable! Clearly something needs to be done about this immediately!

And while were on the subject of dangers, how about Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)? This dangerous substance is responsible for thousands of deaths every year, and is a major contributor to millions upon millions of dollars in damage to property and the environment. Shockingly, some Troops actually let Scouts touch this substance, and in apparent extreme cases, allow Scouts to drink it! Some Adult Leaders actually encourage consumption, especially on hot days! All this despite full knowledge that inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities, will cause death. Furthermore, exposure to solid DHMO can cause severe tissue damage and gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns!

Our older Scouts formed a new high adventure Patrol, the "Dancing Bananas", and got patches from the Patchtown web site. Another Patrol, the "Phoenix" Patrol, got some neat phoenix patches from the Class B web site. The Adult Patrol have "Dutch Oven" patches from ClassB as well. They all work fine. We have three other Patrols that have the regular BSA patches.

Clearly this one came out of the Ministry of Silly Ideas!

For me, the operative language is: "...except in "specific" situations."

Well, I always end up in a specific situation where I need my knife, hence I always carry it. No worries there.

Troop which required parental units to be YP, HW, SSA, & SA trained, how do you do it?

What with on-line BSA training for the above requiring a BSA # (as can be found on the BSA membership card), how are non-BSA registered parental units trained?

If this were a Republican Administration, and a Democrat made any kind of a statement similar to those now being made by the right on this issue, there would be an instant attach along the lines of "Support the President" and "America Love it or Leave it". If such an event were to occur, Rush would be frothing. But, since this is a Democratic President, such rhetoric is fair in their partisan eyes.

I personally believe America is far more important than any one political party or individual who currently happens to be the President. I fear that we are moving along the lines of other areas of the world where political issues have become so divisive that absolutes become more important than national unity on the fundamentals of democracy.

Has anyone ever given something of value away, and then requested donations?

We are thinking of having a table at an upcoming community fair, with plenty of info on the Troop and how kids can join Scouting, and are considering giving away small bottles of water. Next to the water could be a can or box with a sign that says something like: "Donations are Appreciated"

Not selling anything, but do you think we'd get enough $$ to cover the cost of the water and add a bit to the Treasurer?

At last night's Troop meetings, I had put a little riddle up on the white board where we put announcements for upcoming activities - "What do you serve, but do not eat?" Something just for fun, and the answer, according to the joke book I got it out of is "tennis ball."

At the end of the meeting, I pointed to the riddle and asked the guys what they thought. The first answer was "God", although that brought about some discussion on the Eucharist, as we are sponsored by a Catholic Church, as to whether or nor you can eat God... then someone called out, "the community!" and then "our Country!", and "the Troop!" All of which brought about agreement. Then, someone said, "a ball", which lead to "a volley ball" and then finally, "a tennis ball."

All the answers were right I told them, and after a few last announcements we closed the meeting. I was amazed, and very pleased at the thinking that brought about these answers. Perhaps some of that Scout Spirit is actually soaking in!

What I'd like to see in a FOS presentation is a very transparent discussion of where the money goes. How much stays in the District, how much goes to Council, and what percentage goes to Nation. And then how it's spent. Where does the money go, and is it really used.

Enough with the vague presentations instilling mom, apple pie, and the legacy of Baden Powell.

Let's face it, all politics is local, and I'd like to know how FOS benefits our local Troop. I'm afraid this will never happen as the truth may induce contributors to just write their checks to the Troop. My preference anyway.

I've found this waxes and wanes depending on the Scout Leaders - especially the SPL and members of the PLC. I've seen some boys embrace the SPL fully, conducting Troop meetings and providing significant leadership planning and implementing outings.

On the other hand, some boys have a much harder time with leadership and some really don't seem to care. Some come in enthusiastic, then get involved in a sport or other outside activity and never end up following though all their big plans. Several years ago a number of the older Scouts planned two high adventure winter camping trips with great fanfare. But by the time January and February arrived, they were busy with other things and were not around for any of the implementation.

It is often very difficult to decide where to allow a failure and where to step in and make sure things happen. For me, the litmus test is often based on how many Scouts will be affected by the failure - a few Scouts? One Patrol? The entire Troop? What will be the ultimate impact? Are there any constructive lessons to be learned? Or will it end up with boys quitting because of their frustration?

We allowed two failures this year in our fledgling high-adventure Patrol. Did they learn their lesson? Had to tell.. we'll see what happens next time. The bottom line is that the adventure they planned did not happen because of lack of follow up and a "what-ever" attitude among the Patrol leadership. It's my impression that the leaders didn't learn anything and don't really care. For the Patrol members, it's a different story - they are pissed things they wanted to happen didn't, and I'm hearing mutterings of "...when I'm the PL, we're going, no matter what..." Music to my ears!

On the Troop level, we are currently experiencing a big failure because of money. As in the lack of. And this is an event the Scouts were really looking forward to, but is not happening because we simply do not have the $$ in the Treasurer to support it. All this because of a significant lack of interest or enthusiasm at our last fund raiser. The SPL was especially unmotivated, and his attitude permeated the rank and file. Now we have a new SPL, and he sees a clear connection. With out prompting, he is leading a coalition to earn the necessary $$ for next year's event. At our last PLC, he, with PL support, levied a minimal sales quota for each Scout. We'll what happens with that!

Eagle732, it sounds like you are setting up the right conditions (despite the COR!). Step back and watch, but be ready to step in if necessary (good luck in knowing when!). Don't be surprised if it sometimes doesn't work! This way you'll be all the more delighted on those occasions when the Scouts really do pull it off!

Our feeder Cub Pack does it's AOL (W-2) Ceremony in mid-April, and a Crossover to the Troop in late April.

This seems to work great. We have a Troop/AOL camping trip in early April, which allows the Weebs & parents to meet the Troop and have a fun camp out in what is usually fairly comfortable weather.

The full crossover is at the end of April. The new Scouts can go camping with the Troop in May and June - two easy and comfortable camp outs, and then go to summer camp with the Troop in July. By July they are ready and psyched for summer camp and can fully participate in the First Year Camper Program.

Perhaps there is more to this than simply an error in directional orientation that causes the confused to move in a circular motion.

Having been one of those who was mighty bewildered as to my location, I can testify that one of the things you first notice is the lack of familiarity in terms of landmarks or trail. If you are hiking into unknown territory on a trail or while utilizing a map and compass, you have a reference point to keep your self orientated. The thing about being lost is that there are no reference points. Everything around you is suddenly completely unfamiliar. The trail is gone and everything looks the same and yet different and everything is totally unfamiliar. This is when panic sets in and a common reaction is to move quickly in a desperate search of something familiar. All it takes to get over this panic is the sight of a known landmark or stretch of trail.

Perhaps the circular motion is an unconscious and internal reckoning to get back to something familiar.

While we cannot compare the heroics of a Purple Heart to that symbolized by a Scouter knot, to me a Scouter that shows up to Troop meetings year after year, goes on camping trips all through the year, and guides boys from the crossover to Eagle is a hero. It may not be a dramatic as a military hero, but it a hero that sticks with it through all the national, council, and district bs, handles the helicopter parents, and the out of control boys... and then come back and does it again.

And if, during those years, a few awards were presented, why not wear them? They were earned many times over. They are well deserved and deserve respect. They certainly have mine.

On the other hand, I do feel conflicted when I see that some businessman (who was never a Scout) is presented with an award at the council or national level because of a monetary donation. Yes, I understand we need the money, and we do appreciate the donation, but isn't there another way to recognize such a contribution?

asm 411 -

We encourage all Scouts and Scouters to come to our ECOH in full uniform - this includes all our Scouts, Cubs from our feeder Pack, friends and family members who are Girl Scouts, and anyone else. We've had several family members and friends in the military show up in full dress, as well as police officers, and once, a group of firemen from the station the Eagle was a volunteer at - along with an engine! I have found that the more in uniform the better - I believe it supports the Eagle, plus it makes for really great photos!

MichaelOA -

Our experience mirrors that described by asm 411. We too had a problem with Scouts texting on camping trips, talking on the cell at inappropriate times, and standing in formation and participating in activities whilst plugged into an mp3 or ipod.

We discussed at length in PLC, and the Scouts decided that things were out of control and came up with a no-see'um policy. Scouts can bring 'em, but they are not to be seen at any Troop activity. If you've got to listen, do it in your tent. Before summer camp, the SPL adn ASPL made a big deal out of not bring cell phones, and told the Troop that they were not bringing theirs. The rest of the Troop followed their example, and we have not had any problems since.

I took both these courses at summer camp as well, and would be very surprised if they became mandatory! They are excellent courses and we had a great instructor. We spent 2 hrs each afternoon (M-F) on this, and it was a lot of work! We were in the water most days (lake 4 days, pool 1 day), and did all practical work, supplemented by book reading outside of class. These courses went far beyond the principals covered in Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. I highly recommend, but they are not for everyone.

spitfidgetx... just getting back from our August Troop campout and reading over this discussion with my morning coffee...

I second the advice so far with regard to separating kids on meds and behavior.

Some kids apparently need medications in their daily lives and need to continue to take the meds on Scout outings. We have two like that, and one ASM who confers with the parents as to what when and then gives the kids their meds. He did this a summer camp, and then again on this week-ends camping trip. This system seems to work fine for us. Neither of these kids are behavioral problems.

Behavior applies to everyone, medicated or not. If a Scout does something that is outside the Scout Law, then he is called on it. Most of the time a talk with the PL or SPL will take care of the problem. If not, an immediate Scoutmasters conference happens with a very clear discussion on the consequences of his actions. If he continues to behave in a way that is clearly outside of the Scout Law, he is suspended from Troop outings and activities for a period of time.

If he is using a knife in a way that is inconsistent with Tote-n-Chip rules, then he looses his Tote-n-Chip and is not allow to carry or use a knife until he goes through the full course again.

If the Scout or his parental-like units have a problem with the need to follow the Scout Law on all Troop activities, then they can find another Troop.

In reading over your original post, I do not see the linkage between giving some kids meds, getting yelled at by a parental-like unit, and Scouts assaulting each other. This seems like three separate issues:

1) If the Scouts were acting up significantly, explain to them what they did wrong and then suspend them from the next activity. The suspension is followed by a Scoutmasters conference to discuss how to behave within the Scout Law.

2) As to the verbal attack by a Scout guardian... that's way out of line. That kind of behavior is well outside of the Scout Law. If this person has a huge problem with the way things are done in your Troop, let him know there are other Troops out there. You can also suspend them too, and let 'em know they are no longer welcome at Troop activities until they too can follow the Scout Law.

3) Medications are a separate issue as discussed above... either give 'em out or don't.

Good luck, and let us know how things work out. Once you let the Scout Law dictate behavior, you are simply the messenger for a higher authority.

For Scout who return from summer camp with partials, we do two things:

1 - Finish with a Troop MB Counselor

2 - Send him back to camp with his partials and one of the MB Class time slots open for finishing partials.

Were not going to do it for him, but will enable him to finish up any accumulated partials. Most of the time this works fine, and in a year of two the MB is complete. We've had several Scouts over the years with partials in fishing because they didn't catch that last fish. But eventually they get it if they keep at it. We had several Scouts come back from camp this year with partials in climbing as it rained the last day of camp and they could not do the repelling off the climbing tower. They'll be back next year! This weekend we're taking a five mile hike

We have had a few Scouts who goof off at camp, end up with lots of partials, and then not finishing any of them despite the opportunities we provide. You can lead a horse to water...

Interesting discussion... I agree with the focus on solving this via PLC. Without Scout buy-in to a solution you really won't see any change. However I do agree with others that the Adult Leaders must let the parent know he needs to back off - even if it means his little johnny has a difficult time doing his work. The kid's got to figure it out sometime, and Scouting is a nice safe place to make all kinds of mistakes!

We really haven't seen such a problem, perhaps because Saturday night is our fun night. After a day of activities, Saturday evening is the time when the Patrol can really focus on building as huge a fire as we can get away with, cooking great dinners, making cakes, and playing man-hunt in the dark.

Friday night is the time to set up camp, maybe have a fire, and then go to bed. Most of our camping trips are 2-3 hours away, so Friday night is kind of a wash as we often get to camp until 9 or 10 at night. The Scouts make a big breakfast on Saturday morning, which they all like, but Saturday night really is the highlight of the camping trip.

We had a problem for a while of Scouts going straight home on Sunday, but PLC solved that by letting the Scouts know all had to go back to the Church to help unload and put away the equipment.

Good luck with your issue, and please let us know how it was solved.

If we end up with an uneven number of Scouts, we will allow one of the older high rank Scouts to sleep alone. RHIP. Our JASM had his own tent at summer camp this year. It's a judgment call by the adult leaders based on how the Scout will do alone. We fully map out tents and tent-mates before going on a camp out or to summer camp so the adults know who is with whom and where and there are no surprises when setting up camp.

Just back from summer camp, and thought about this issue while away... here are some of my thoughts...

1) On the way to camp we were all in full Class A uniform and looking sharp. We stopped at a Wendy's for lunch. With 30 Scouts and leaders we knew we were going to take over the place, but when we walked in, there were ~25 soldiers in field uniform from a near-by base. The soldiers acknowledged, smiled at, and nodded to our Scouts as we all stood in line waiting to order. I watched the faces of our Troop as they clearly felt pride to be in uniform. There were a few families in the restaurant, and those with young boys look at us and smiled, they knew who we were and what we represented. The few teen boys eating hamburgers looked at the Scouts with, dare I say it? Envy. Yes, it was clear that in this situation the Scouts were the cool ones, not the slackers with low pants and long t-shirts.

2) At camp, while in the dining hall for evening meals, I looked around at the 400+ Scouts and Scouters, all in Class A uniform, eating the evening meal. As I sat there, I thought about the purpose of the uniform and came up with some ideas... more than anything, the uniform is a communication device. It tells all that the wearer is a Scout and an American. It shows rank, Position of Responsibility, Patrol, Council, and Unit #. It let's others know what activities the wearer has been involved in, such a winter Klondike or OA. It let others know if you are trained, if you are with a Quality Unit, and as an adult, what awards you have won. And more than anything else, the uniform is honest -- the rank and POR you see on a Scout uniform is actually what he has earned. When you see a Scout with Life Rank and SPL patch, you know exactly what he is and what you can expect out of him. You know what experiences he has had to earn his rank and what his POR responsibilities are. And you can give him the respect he is due.

3) On the last night of camp, I asked the SPL what uniform we were to wear on the ride home. He consulted with the ASPL for a few seconds, and said "Class A, no neckerchief." He announced this to the Patrol Leaders, who passed it on to all in camp, and in the morning we pulled out in class A. No complaints or whining. 100% their decision.

4) Those parents or kids who feel put off by the uniform have no idea of what Scouting is all about, and likely no business in Scouting anyway. If a Troop does cave to their uniform complaints, it won't be long before they are complaining about something else, and soon quite no matter how many demands are met.

Our Troop has grown by over 200% over the past ten years, and we do what others here have described - Class A during the School year, Class B t-shirts during the summer, and Class A while in travel. No whining, no complaints, Scout enforced, and that's just the way it is. It works, and that's what Scouting is. Enough of giving in to the whiners.