SMT224

Twocubdad -

The real power in your Troop is the PLC. Perhaps you could work with the PLC to craft some simple rules that require all going on a camping trip to be assigned a job on the duty roster prior to the trip, not only including the Scout Patrols, but adult leaders and visiting parents.

Then the SPL can very clearly let them know what job the will need to do before you leave. And if they chose to play cards instead of gathering or chopping wood (with a clear natural consequence of no fire that night), then the SPL or PLC will have the authority to inform them they are not welcome on future camping trips.

Much better that assigned chores (and the consequences of not doing them) come from the Scouts than adults, as that apparently has not worked.

The article doesn't say, but more and more the rescued are charged for such costly rescue services. Helicopters don't come cheap, and I'd be surprised if they wouldn't assess the idiots something for dropping off water or getting them out of a situation they could have easily avoided.

On a related note, has anyone heard if the "balloon-boy" parents will be assessed the cost of their stunt? It's got to be huge, what with all the personnel and aircraft that were involved in following the balloon.

We've done this several times with the Troop and with my daughters Girls Scouts.

Bring several tarps, rope, and a hammer and nails. Then creatively create a segregated adult area, or when both male and female leaders are present (or in the case of Girls Scouts), "Man" and "Woman" areas.

After several camping trips that ending up complete fiasco's with regard to camp chores and who was supposed to do which job, the PLC decided to do something about it.

They came up with a list of Troop camp chores (below), described what needed to be done, and set up a year-long schedule with one or two Troop camp chores randomly assigned to each Patrol for every campout.

It has worked better than we expected. Now Patrols know what they will be doing before the campout and we all know who is responsible for getting the work done. Each Patrol has a copy of the schedule, and one is posted on each camping trip. Patrols also do their own duty roster for Patrol cooking and clean up.

Camp Chores

Fire wood: Gathering/Cutting

- Gather enough fuel wood for all to keep warm

- Cut wood to size appropriate for fire ring

- Ensure an adequate supply until fire is put out at departure

Fire: Build, Maintain

- Collect tinder and kindling

- Clear fire pit area

- Fill fire buckets

- Start fire

- Keep fire going

- Stay with fire

- Put out fire completely at end of campout

Water & Bug Juice

- Carry containers from trailer

- Fill bug juice and water containers

- Keep containers filled

- Add bug juice powder as necessary

- Empty water & bug juice on departure

- Carry containers back to trailer

- Clean container upon return to church

Dish Washing Station

- Set up dishwashing station

- Hang up drying bags

- Boil water

- Fill all containers

- Place sponges and dish soap next to station

- Place paper towels and trash bag at the front of station

- Clean up and stack containers at end of campout

Dining Fly

- Help select site for dining fly

- Help set up dining fly

- Ensure dining fly is staked properly

- Help take down and put away dining fly

Stove set-up and operation

- Carry stove boxes from trailer

- Help adult leaders set up stove

- Ensure that stove is used properly

- Clean stoves after last meals

- Help adult leaders break down stoves

- Carry stove boxes back to trailer

Kitchen Patrol

- Decide where kitchen will go

- Monitor use and ensure area is kept clean

- Ensure patrols keep their cooking area clean

Cake

- Make 1 or 2 Dutch Oven cakes for everyone on Saturday evening

- Clean Dutch Oven

Right - go to Cabela's Bargain Cave and search for "Performance Underwear", then sort the search list by price, low to high, and you will find all kinds of great deals on last year's colors and styles (as if you'll care when wearing it under your clothes!). I just did a search and found some nice Polartec stuff for a great price. I usually take some medium-weight and some heavy-weight long underwear that can be worn under wool pants or snow pants or bib. Check Campmor sale prices as well for good deals. Don't worry so much about brands, just make sure it's synthetic - polyproplyene or polartec

An interesting book on bribing for results, pertinent to this discussion...

"Punished By Rewards: The Trouble with Gold Stars, Incentive Plans, A's, Praise, and Other Bribes" by Alfie Kohn, 1999.

It's available at Amazon, or maybe at your local library.

Thanks for the info on this!

I will look at these possible web hosting sites.

However, what I am really looking for some password protection script that someone has had experience with to add to our existing web site.

What is happening here is the Slippery Slope Logical Fallacy, in which an assertion is made that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In this case, if a student has a knife, it will be used to stab another student or teacher. The assumed inevitable has now been carved in stone: any knife, not matter how small, will lead to inevitable violence. All the other potential weapons in a school are ignored a sharp pencil or pen, landscape rocks, a heavy desk, books, and of course body parts like fists and feet. We humans have never had a problem turning anything at hand into a weapon if we feel the need.

And yet, here we have those in whom we have entrusted the education of our children, falling for the oldest trick in the book. If A happens, then eventually Z will happen, too. Z should not happen. Therefore, A should not happen, either. People have been stabbed with knives, stabbings are bad, and therefore, having a knife becomes equal to stabbing. And thats the assumption the schools are working on if you have a knife, you will stab someone. The frustrating part of this is that it is wrong, wrong, wrong! Ninety percent of the adult leaders and Scouts on any camping trip or at BSA summer camp are carrying knives, and yet spontaneous stabbings do not occur. I think the school boards who set such policies need some education!

I would like to set up our Troop web site so our activity schedule and photos are password protected.

Does anyone know how I would go about this?

Is there some kind of software or script I'd need to use, or what?

Thanks!!

I try to interact with parents on a regular basis -- usually just to let them know how their son did on a recent activity. Usually this communication takes only 1-5 minutes, and 95% positive.

For example, our QM did an outstanding job of cleaning up and organizing the Scout room at the Troop meeting last week. At the end of the meeting, when his mom arrived to pick him up, I told her how well he had done and how much his work will help the Troop. She was delighted to hear this and left feeling very proud of her son.

I also make a point to talk to parents of new Scouts when we get back from a campout to let them know how he did. This gives me a chance to talk to them and listen to their concerns and assure them things are ok. Again this is usually positive 95% of the time.

Once I've spoken the parental units several times on positive matters it's much easier to speak to them on a more challenging issue should it arise. Usually I will state this in terms of my concern and let them know what happened and what the repercussions are. Luckily this doesn't happen that often, but as SM, I have to be ready to lay it clear for the parents and let them know exactly what the situation is.

Unfortunately the "drop-and-go" parents are hardest to communicate with as I rarely see them at Troop meetings, and even after a camping trip. They pull up and expect their son to hop in the car with his equipment and off they go. When there is a behavioral problem, these are the kids who just stop coming and I never know what happened.

Graywr -

Welcome to the campfire!

I'm a Scoutmaster, so my perspective on this may be different on this than some of the other folks who are directly involved in Cubs. No doubt they will weight in soon.

We have a feeder Pack and do a "Crossover" ceremony once a year in late April, just after our annual Webelos/Troop campout. At that ceremony, the Cubs cross a bridge, leaving the younger Cubs and their parents, and join our Troop, eventually leaving the area with the other Scouts. It is that ceremony that is the "Crossover", not just leaving the Pack and joining a Troop.

So, in response to your posting, my first question is "Why?" Why does this mom want to do this? Does she have another son in the Troop and wants the younger to join for some specific Troop activity? Does she not understand he will not get his Arrow of Light if he leaves now? Plus, a big part of the Crossover ceremony is doing it with all his friends - they leave the Pack together and come in to the Troop together. Why would she want to deny her son that?

If she were trying to bring him in to my Troop, I would ask her the above questions and highly recommend her son stay with the Pack and actually do the Crossover, not just arbitrarily leave the Pack and join a Troop (assuming he would meet the joining qualifications w/o his Arrow of Light).

Again, this mom needs to understand that what she is proposing (at least for our Pack & Troop) is not a "Crossover", but an arbitrary departure from the Pack and joining a Troop. Further, by leaving before he has earned his Arrow of Light, he may not qualify to join a Troop, and will not have the one patch that can be worn on his Boy Scout uniform (something all his buddies will have, but not him). Plus, and maybe most important, he will be leaving all his friend behind and coming into a situation where he may not have any friends.

Well, packsaddle, that's another idea... it's been a while since we've purchased a new lantern.

Has anyone had experience with the single mantel lantern...? I think it's called North Star?

Rather than getting rid of the ASM, is it possible to delegate some very specific tasks to him? This process can help define what jobs need to be done and who does what, thereby letting him know what he doesn't do as well. He may be getting out of control because the SM has not defined leadership roles. A Scoutmaster meeting can help this process greatly and let everyone know who does what.

An enthusiastic adult leader is a terrible thing to waste!

Ok - Thanks.

I'll take it apart and see what I can find.

Have used the classic Coleman-type propane lantern with mantels that hang down for years. They are very bright and seem pretty much problem free except for changing a broken mantel now and again.

On our last couple camping trips one of our lanterns is exhibiting the strange behavior of flame coming from the mantels which do not glow brightly as expected. If we turn up the gas, more flames come out of the mantels. If we turn the gas down low, the flaming stops, and the mantel glow a bit, but not as brightly as they should. We changed the mantels to see if that would help, but made no difference.

Has anyone seen this behavior before? Any solution?

Thanks!

Just got back from our October camping trip, and when we pulled in on Friday night at 9:30 pm (in the rain), guess what? Another Troop was in our site!

This was a completely different State Park than in September (original posting) with 4 Youth Group sites. We pulled up and told them they were in our site, and they immediately apologized and moved to the right site. They said they didn't realize they were in the wrong site, and didn't hesitate to make things right.

What a difference from last month!!

Good to see the Scout Spirit is alive and well in some Troops!

I agree with Lisabob on this one. Teens making broad statements like this tend to be more exploring than having come to a conclusion after careful thought. Perhaps he made a few comments intended to shock or rebel from his parents. I too wonder if teens are even capable of coming to such conclusions.

I would really be careful before making a significant decisions on this one unless you have a talk with him and he states he is absolutely sure in his belief that there is no spiritual side to life. And if it turns out that he is questioning some elements of Christianity (which for some believers means he is an atheist) I would help him in his struggle, not turn it into the Spanish Inquisition.

Here's one that I've had to deal with a few too many times...

An out-of-control teen dropped of by their uninvolved parental unit(s) will automatically gain character and become a respectable citizen simply by attending a few Troop meetings and maybe an occasional camping trip.

We actually had a single mom scream at us that we weren't doing enough for her 14 yr old problem child, and his behavior was out fault when we told her he was no longer welcome at Troop meetings and activities. He attended two Troop meetings and one camping trip of disaster!

Kittle -

For my part, I do apologize if any of my remarks were offensive. Believe me, no disrespect to you or your committee was meant by my more vigorous investigatory remarks.

I sincerely hope you return to this forum, for if no other reason than to let us know how things turned out.

-- SMT224

Whoa there Beavah!

Once someone posts in these here forums it's all our business to help 'em figure it out and come to a solution that works best for everyone. If a SM and Scout feel like they cannot speak to a CC or any CM as to why something like this happened, then there is a problem. Of course we don't know what the story is on the other side, and we have to base all our advice on what has been posted. In the mean time, someone like kittle can take our advice or leave it - and hopefully provide us with more details things evolve on their end.

As far as your message, at no point did I call anyone names or accuse!

Maybe there is nothing wrong with this committee and this all stems from communication problems. But a Scout, parent and ASM should get a far better explanation for such an action, and should be able to approach the committee to inquire as to the reasons for their decision with out concern as to how the EBOR will be handled.

Crossramwedge -

My experience is that kids who do not want to be in Scouts, but are there because mom & dad are forcing them to be there are consistently unruly and disruptive. I highly recommend he be asked to either shape up or ship out. This may seem harsh, but his disruptive behavior affects everyone, especially the other Scouts. He may also be a bully to other Scouts when no adults are looking.

After Scouts like this have left our Troop it's like the sun coming out after a dark night - everyone is relieved and the Scouts are much happier. We were amazed at the difference after a couple very disruptive kids who hated Scouting (but mom and dad would not let them quit) finally left.

The Scoutmaster needs to call him out when he is disruptive and suspend him from Troop activities. He may get the message, but likely he will be relived and will continue his behavior just so he will get kicked out. That way he and his dad can rationalize and blame the mean old Scoutmaster. But what really matters for the Troop is that he's gone!

Not only Scouts, but all of them were "good kids", so sayth friends and family. And of course there's good in everyone, especially recognizable by their friends. But no doubt there are folks in that small town who are not surprised in the least that this happened, as they saw the other side of these kids. Based on the look of 'em in court, they all looked fully capable of the crime, Scouts or not. My most sincerely condolences go out to their families and especially the victims.

We're happy if the new Scouts get to Tenderfoot in the first year, and then do about a rank a year from then on. Like others have said, we provide the opportunities for advancement, they decide how far and how fast they want to go. Our Advancement Chair works backwards to ensure no one ends up aging out and unable to get Eagle. Other than that, we do not push the guys. They love camping and they have fun. Priorities fulfilled in our view. But then again, as already well established on this forum, we are heretics of Scouting.

Kittle -

It sounds like the taking back of your sons Life rank is just the tip of the ice berg. This Committee sounds cruel and poisonous. This is not what Scouting should be.

I guess you have three possible choices: 1) Don't make a fuss and try to stay off the Committees radar and hope you can bite your tongue for the next 15 years; 2) Stand up to the Committee and let them know their behavior and tactics are wrong; 3) find another Troop.

I wish you and your sons the best in which ever you path you choose.

Intimidate

tr.v. intimidated, intimidating, intimidates

1. To fill with fear.

2. To coerce or inhibit by or as if by threats.

intimidatingly adv.

intimidation n.

intimidator n.

Synonyms: intimidate, browbeat, bully,

These verbs all mean to frighten into submission, compliance, or acquiescence. Intimidate implies the presence or operation of a fear-inspiring force.

Browbeat suggests the persistent application of highhanded, disdainful, or imperious tactics: browbeating a witness.

To bully is to intimidate through blustering, domineering, or threatening behavior: workers who were bullied into accepting a poor contract.

Bully

n. pl. bullies

1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.

v. bullied, bullying, bullies

1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner.

v.intr.

1. To behave like a bully.

2. To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation

On the face of it this appears outrageous and unfair. Both your son and you deserve a very clear explanation as to why the Committee felt compelled to take this action. And it had better be a very good reason.

As others here have said, this transgression is not the way Scouting is done - once a rank has been earned and awarded, it cannot be taken back. This would certainly never happen in out Troop, and clearly in the Troops that have responded to your initial posting.

However, it appears the Committee for your Troop feels differently. While I concur with the advice to bring in the Chartered Organization Representative, I would first place a phone call to the Committee Chair and ask for an explanation of their actions. What was it they discovered whilst speaking with the Cub Master? What element of the Life advancement did they come to believe he had completed unsatisfactorily? How does the Scoutmaster feel about this? No doubt he had a Scoutmasters Conference, and was in essence recommending that the Scout be awarded the rank advancement as he had completed all the requirements.

Like Ricky said, "You got some splainin to do!"