SMT224

Back in our cub days my son and I made a volcano out of a heap of cupcakes covered with significant amounts of chocolate frosting. We made a hollow at the top and filled it with red and orange frosting which spilled out and ran down the mountain on to a bunch of gum drops (the village).

There was nothing else like it at the Pack meeting! Most of the cakes looked like mom had helped out quite a bit. It's usually obvious which one's only the dad and son did. I think we won, "Most Mountainous" or something like that. Our Pack gave Cubs the option of taking their cake home, or auctioning it off as a fund raiser. The last thing I wanted was to bring that monstrosity home - in fact my wife said she didn't want to see it again, so we auctioned it. It brought the highest price - $7!! The parents weren't too happy, but the winning kid was delighted!

We have a rat that lives in the adult chuck box.

Well, ok, not a real rat, but an beany baby type of thing we picked up at a camp we attended years ago - with "Rock Enon" embroidered on it. He keeps the place clean for us. ;-)

I'm sorry to disagree with folks on this, but girls and women are different creatures, as are boys and men are different creatures.

Just because we have female leaders in Boy Scouts does not mean girls should be in Boy Scouts. Just because we have male leaders in Girls Scouts does mean boys should be in Girl Scouts.

I've been a Scoutmaster for Boy Scouts for ten years and a Camping Adviser for Girl Scouts for four years. I've been on a significant number of camping trips with both groups, and I can tell you they are very different.

Since there are a number of us leaders that have sons in Boys Scouts and daughters in Girls Scouts we have tried a couple mixed camping trips. And while they weren't outright disasters, but it wasn't a good situation. Both the boys and girls became very different - the boys showing off & acting like idiots and the girls ignoring each other and flirting with the boys. And I don't think either group meant to do it, as they have know each other outside of Scouts for years, but it just happened. Afterwards, we said never again.

Separated, girls and boys do very well alone on camping trips. But together, there were just too many hormones. Based on my experience, I have come to believe that sometimes boys just need to be with boys and girls need to be with girls.

About 8 years ago our Treasurer resigned, and I suggested a Scout mom who was an accountant. The old guys (many of whom had grown up in the Troop in the 40's and 50's) just about had coronaries and said there had never been and there would never be a woman leader in the Troop. Women had their place, they said, in the "Parent Auxiliary" to help out with crafts and and food at COH and the like. There were some very angry exchanges in the weeks that followed my suggestion, and to my great surprise, the most vehement came from the wives of these old guys who had been very active in the Parent Auxiliary "back in the day". These woman were the most vocal that there should be no women leaders in Boy Scouts, only silent "helpers" in the background.

Fast forward to today... most of the old guys are gone, and now almost all of the Committee leadership positions are women (Chair, Treasurer, Advancement, Fund Raising) and over the past three years we have had two female SM.

And guess what? The Troop works great! We've tripled our numbers, have more $$ in our treasury than ever before, and have a very active group of Scouts who really don't care whether the Committee Chair is a man or woman - they just want to go camping and have fun!

Ok, one other idea to toss out as we sit around our virtual campfire...

Before the pledge, have one of the Cubs say, "Would everyone please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?"

Few can resist such a command.

Take a look at the name of the new camp: "Bechtel Family National Scout Reserve"...

Clearly Bechtel will be funding a portion of the construction and operation of this facility.

Since Bechtel is an engineering firm I wonder if they will focus assistance on facilities for such merit badges as composite materials, engineering, surveying, or even nuclear science (nothing like a little problem with the camp reactor for a really exciting "campfire"!).

I guess my point, shortridge, is to be transparent about it. Based on the initial posting, the culture of this Den is to stand. Let the guy know he's expected to stand with everyone else. It's being only fair to him.

It also will accessible via AMTRAK on the Cardinal Line.

Rather than potentially putting him on the defensive by asking why he's not standing, simply let him know that all are expected to stand for the pledge. This lets him know that the culture of Scouts is to show an expected level of respect by standing. It's important that everyone does it, as that is the culture. If an adult doesn't stand, why should the Scouts stand?

I think I would do this by talking to him after a meeting and saying something like, "Hi. How are you this evening? Hey, I noticed that you were not standing during the pledge. I'd really appreciate if you would join us next time and stand as we recite the pledge. It's important that we all stand, as that's what we do here."

At this point, if he wants to tell you why he was not standing, fine. If not no worries. At least he now know that he is expected to stand.

If he tells you he will not stand (for what ever personal reason), simple let him know that he can wait at the back of the room or another location Den meeting.

No judgment no argument as to his reasons or issues. Simply let him know that if he is in the Den meeting area, all stand for the pledge. If he is unable to do this, he can find another place to be.

To be quite honest, I really don't have time to put up with this kind of nonsense. We have 30 boys in our Troop that love to camp, hike, do service projects, have fun, and move along the trail to Eagle at about a rank a year. We enable advancement, not push it. A hyper-advancement parent would simply not be a good fit, and my experience in trying to convince a parent that is as driven as you describe to let his little piglet cook to perfection has not been good. I think it's better to be very transparent at the get-go so they can join a Troop that best meets their needs.

And since there actually are Troops in my area that focus significantly on advancement above all else, I'd simply say...

"Find another Troop. Best of luck."

Lisabob & Frank17 -

Right, I agree completely. As I said in my message, "This was the fault of the city, not the Scout." Not only was the city obligated to inform the Union of the impending project, but should have brought them to the table during the planning process, since this was something that clearly impacted their jurisdiction.

Communication is a critical part of the planning process, and all involved need to be cognizant of this reality, as this situation clearly illustrates.

What's the big take away lesson here folks?

COMMUNICATION!!!

This clearly was great Eagle Project, something that benefited the community. But the planning stage of any project is just as important as the implementation.

With 20/20 hindsight, it appears that the Union was not brought into the picture as the city made their decision to approve the project. This was the fault of the city, not the Scout. The Union acted as if they were blindsided, and then reacted stupidly.

However, it is probable that had they been part of the decision making process, they would have supported the project. Had it come to pass that the Union input to the planning process was that this was an inappropriate project (due to a number of reasons already discussed in this post), they would have been at the table to creatively work with the city and Scout to come up with an appropriate project that everyone could have supported and embraced.

The lesson for future Eagle projects is that all parties (with any involvement whatsoever) need to be part of, or at least be informed of, the planning and decision making regarding the impending project.

On reflection, me thinks HobcawChaos is right - bags ok, but will be searched on entering.

Dad? Whitey wouldn't have a Dad. And he wouldn't be white. He'd be the son on a single black mom who works two jobs and a Vietnamese American Dad who was killed in Iraq. After many trials and tribulations he goes on to earn his Eagle, becomes a U. S. Senator and eventually President.

Per your questions...

1) You will not be allowed to bring backpacks into any Smithsonian museum. You can either leave someone outside, or check your items at the museum. Checking is best, although will add some time to your expedition.

2) Greenbelt is like any other National Park camp ground. Lock up valuables in cars, basic items in tents and your cooking equipment should be fine.

Other:

To be in the Scout loop, you will need to present both a Tour Permit and Proof of Insurance.

Go to the College Park Metro - they have a new parking garage, and will likely have space. Greenbelt Metro fills up by 9 am.

Watch out for poison ivy at Greenbelt Park!!!

I highly recommend the National Building museum, quiet, rarely any crowds, interesting exhibits, and housed in a beautiful building - Washington's first Federal Building (1880). Just get off at Judiciary Metro (red line) and follow the signs.

Have fun!

kcs_hiker -

Based on your second post, I'd go with the recommendation of starting a new Troop! Any Troop that would run off a trained Scouter has some very deep problems.

Since the WB guy is already being run off, he's probably join you, plus the other folks around the camp fire offended by old guys. And you'd likely discover there were a number of others who are tired of the old guys too. Yea, it might start small, but if you're doing the right thing, it'll grow! Plus, with another Troop in town, folks will have a choice!

All you need to do is find a willing charter organization, do some paperwork, and you're all set! You will have support since you have already developed relationships in the District and Council.

Just imagine how nice it will be to be sitting around the campfire with a bunch of leaders that actually support and live the Scout Law!

kcs_hiker -

Thanks for posting. Sorry to hear about the difficulties around the camp fire by idiots. I wouldn't necessarily label their behavior as conservative, but more unScoutlike and just plain rude.

I think we have all come across adult leaders who present a special challenge, whether it be not doing what they've been asked to do, sitting around the campfire 'till the wee hours talking and laughing so loud no one can sleep, and then, as in your case, those who's words go far outside the Scout Law.

Before we go on any outing, after all the cars and trailer are packed up, the SPL asks the Scouts and adult leaders to fall in. They are then reminded, in no uncertain terms, that all going on this activity are bound by the Scout Law.

This means that anyone can challenge anyone else does something outside the Law. In the case of telling homophobic or racist stories, a quick comment letting them know that it falls outside the Scout Law and is therefore not allowed is all it should take.

This way, you are not challenging them, or who they are, or their conservatism, or their humor, or anything else linked to their vaguely perceived identity, but simply pointing out that that particular comment is not allowed by the Scout Law.

Of course, I understand that it'd not as simple as that. I know what it's like to be a new leader in a Troop of old guys and the paralyzing culture can go with it.

When I joined most of the leaders had grown up in the Troop, and it they ran the Troop... the Scouts were just along for the ride. There was no PLC, no JLT, no Patrols, and the adults would get together over beers ever 4 to 6 months to plan future activities. But the real shocker for me was on my first camp out... minutes after the Scouts had been sent to their tents, the beer or bottle came out.

A year later, I naively accepted the position of Scoutmaster. A number of changes were made which made some of the existing adult leaders upset enough not to go on anymore camping trips (oh well!).

But I did not make any changes. I let the Scout Law and Guide to Safe Scouting make the changes. Acting like the new guy, I simply did Scouting as I had been trained to do. After a while the comments of "...we don't do it that way in our Troop..." have faded as new adult leaders have come on line.

Since then we have tripled out numbers, have a very active PLC, biannual JLT, and Scout run planning. Not to mention activities that fall well with in Scout Law. And we have much more fun!

So, yea, challenge these idiots! But first set the stage and let everyone know they are bound by the Law, then let it do the work!

This is an interesting discussion, and clearly Troop do things differently when it comes to money. I am especially curious about the cost of the monthly camping trip.

In our Troop, the campsite cost is typically $15 (for the entire Troop) for a weekend use of a Youth Group site at a State Park. The Troop treasury covers this. Each Patrol designates a food buyer who collects $10 from each Scout and buys food for the menu they developed. Thats it. No additional funds are collected from Scouts.

Costs listed in this forum for a Scout to attend a camping trip varied from Troop to Troop, from $6 to $10 to $20 to $40. I appreciate the cost break down by Mafaking, but I'm curious about others... where does the $$ go? Why is $40 per Scout necessary for a weekend campout? How is the $$ used? And jeff-o, how do you do a campout for $6?!

Note, I'm not at all challenging anyone here, or saying our way is better. Maybe it's not! But as we are commencing to get ready to start looking at our budget for 2010, it is good to know how other Troop do things.

Thanks!!

I would attend several meetings and just observe. Are they having fun? What are the Scouts learning? What are they doing? What are the Patrols like? How do the Scouts interact with each other and with adult leaders?

As you talk to the SM & SPL see if you can distill out some information about the Troop, including... What kinds of activities are they involved in? How often do they camp? What do they do on camping trips? What kinds of service projects are they involved in? How much do things cost? What kinds of fund raisers are they involved in, how much time is involved? As a parent, what role is expected of you? Committee? ASM?

Least important would be advancement rates, # of merit badges pounded out, and how many Eagles a year they produce.

Rather than judging a Troop solely by the SM & SPL sales pitch, I'd watch and let your gut guide you. If it feels right, if your son would advance at a reasonable rate, and he'd have fun, then go with it!

Annual registration (includes Boys Life & Council Insurance): $30

Monthly Dues: $5 (comes to $60 annually)

Food for 10 monthly camping trips: $10 (collected/spent by Scouts, $100 annually)

summer camp: $255

Annual Total: $445

All other costs - equipment, campground fees, patches, Troop hat, Troop neckerchief - are paid for from our annual fund raiser.

Every 2-3 years we get a printed Troop t-shirt and charge Scouts the cost of production: $10. New Scouts are required to purchase.

I report on past camping trips, future activities and estimated costs, needs (such as new tents or lanterns that require fund outlay), Troop problems that need Committee attention, and any decisions that need to be, or have already been, run through the PLC. The SPL does not attend Committee meetings - he runs the PLC and Troop. I think it's appropriate the SM is the liaison between the Troop and Committee.

A heater in a tent??

No way!

I'd rather be in my undies in my -20 bag on top of some flattened cardboard and a couple closed-cell foam pads!

Did that last January at -9F and slept warm and happy!

oldsm - We have a high functioning aspy with dietary issues that sound a bit similar to your "picky" Scout.

However, his dietary issues are not in anyway a problem or disruptive to the Troop, camping trips, or summer camp. On any outing where we eat, he brings his own food in a little cooler. His mom plays a significant role in packing and preparing his food for all camping trips, as she does at summer camp.

At summer camp she meets with the cook and kitchen staff to discuss his diet and leaves them with a cooler full of food for the week. The kitchens at all camps we have stayed at have been very accommodating and things have worked out fine. No doctors notes were necessary they completely understood Aspergers food issues. He has no problem eating his food at the table with the rest of us, and we have no problem that he brings his own food.

As one of our best Patrol Leaders, he works with his Scouts to develop a menu that satisfies everyone for our regular monthly camping trips, and then fully participates in cooking and cleaning up. Sometimes he eats Patrol food; sometimes he only eats his own food. On our last camping trip, he cooked chicken in the dutch oven, and when later I asked him how it was, he didnt miss a beat and said, I dont know, I dont eat chicken.

When he first joined the Troop, I reacted much as other posters here have... I was appalled that we were going to have a picky eater in the Troop and that his mother was so involved in his food and enabled his pickyness. My initial attitude was not to accommodate or coddle him, and I figured once he got hungry enough hed eat. But several things have changed my mind set over the past three years. Mainly this involved understanding that this is one of the many ways his Asperger's manifests itself. From this vantage point, this kid is not so much picky as simply unable to deal with some foods, and very comfortable with other foods.

But at this point in time, his food issues matter not, as he (and his mom) deals with his issues in a way that have no impact on anyone else in the Troop he does not whine or complain, and gets plenty to eat.

But the first year was not so easy it took time to work out the kinks and figure out how to accommodate his issues without impacting everyone else. Part of this was my fault in that I had initially decided not to do any kind of accommodation. When I eventually realized that allowing him to have his own food was not the end of the world and let things settle out, it was not so bad at all.

Of course my case may be completely different than yours, and things may not work out as well as we have experienced. Nevertheless, I suggest you give him a chance, and since mom sounds like shes more than happy to enable his food issues, consider working with her to set up ways he can have fun, be active in the Troop, and eat what he likes.

Good luck.

sandspur -

Two young Scouts is better than one. Or even better, three.

Bottom Line: Don't ever be alone with a Scout.

Based on how dewASM has described the situation, my read is that the ASM acted inappropriately and should not have taken an individual Scout and wandered about without another Scout or adult. Even though this was a public place, this leader should not have gone off alone with one of the youngest Scouts in your unit. As Scoutmaster, you can let folks in the Troop know that two deep leadership is a hard and fast rule with no exceptions. In a public place this can mean he is with two or three Scouts instead of another adult, but never ever alone with a Scout.

You are not overreacting - he should not have done that. He needs to know his behavior was not ok and should not happen again.

When I became Scoutmaster, the Troop was very loose on this aspect, and after I discovered an ASM had taken one Scout in his van on a 3 hour trip to summer camp I put my foot down, and fully enforced the two deep rule. This really angered some of the old timers, and I was tested several times and once even had to cancel an outing because there were not enough adults.

It's likely this guy will have a fit when you call him out on this and other inappropriate behavior, but if you stick to your guns he will eventually get the message and either get with the program or hit the road.