SMT224

Well, I just submitted a Tour Permit at myscouting.org for our April camping trip to a near-by National Park which requires we submit both a "Tour Permit" & "Proof of Insurance" no later than 2 weeks before arrival. We'll see if it's approved!! I really don't have a problem submitting a Tour Plan as well, but don't want the camping trip scraped because the NP isn't up to date on the BSA protocol.

But this surprised me: there is nothing at myscouting.org on the Tour Plan change! No announcement or discussion of the impending March 1 change!

In the meantime, the Council sent this out last night:

Tour Plan FAQs

Many changes have been made in the filing and processing of Tour Plans (previously called Tour Permits) recently.

Here are the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions:

Q. When do I need to file a Tour Plan?

A. When any of the following apply:

*Trips of 500 miles or more

*Trips outside of council borders not to a council-owned property

*Trips to any national high-adventure base, National Scout Jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event

*When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events:

o Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.)

o Climbing and rappelling

o Orientation flights (process flying plan)

o Shooting sports

o Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.)

*At the Councils request

Q. My unit is going to Scout camp. Do we need a Tour Plan?

A. If your unit is attending a Scout camp belonging to our council you do not need to file a tour plan. If your unit is attending an out of council camp, you will need to file a tour plan and a letter of proof of insurance will be provided with your approved Tour Plan to present to the camp attending.

Q. We are leaving for summer camp on Sunday. Can I get my tour plan processed the Friday before we depart when I pick up uniforms at the Scout Shop?

A. In order to properly process a tour plan, you must allow three weeks (21 days) lead time on filing the tour plan. We cannot expedite tour plan approvals or letters for proof of insurance for late submissions.

Q. Do we always need a Tour Plan?

A. Tour plans are not required for travel to/from and participation in a council camp or council/district event such as a training course, camporee, etc. Otherwise, follow the guidelines in the first FAQ above.

Q. Why do I need driver information?

A. Driver information shows that each driver has the minimum required insurance coverage for the state in which they are licensed. If you have a list of all the drivers in your unit, simply attach a copy and circle those who are driving for each

event as needed.

Q. What training should I have for my Tour Plan?

A. At least one registered member of each group must have Youth Protection Training, updated within the past two calendar years prior to the date of departure, as well as the new Planning and Preparing for Weather Hazards training,

also updated within the past two years. Other training may be required depending on the event for which the tour plan is requested (such as Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, Wilderness first Aid, CPR, etc).

Q. Do I need to hand deliver my tour plan? Can I email it?

A. Tour Plans may be hand-delivered, emailed, faxed, or mailed to the council office.

Q. How do I receive my copy of the approved Tour Plan?

A. Your approval will be emailed please include an email address on the Tour Plan OR, to the primary address on the Tour Plan. We can also fax the approved tour plan if you provide a fax number.

Q. What is the most common mistake on a Tour Plans?

A. Missing signatures. Please be sure to affix the required signatures before submitting your Tour Plan.

Engineer61 -

Only one way to find out: ask 'em!

It may have been something totally unrelated to the prayer... or not.

Had a Scout at summer camp that came to me on Wednesday night feeling very sick. We took him to the medic and his symptoms matched cerebral meningitis. Apparently he had been feeling badly since Monday, but was so into being at camp that he didn't want to say anything.

The medic freaked out, fearing a full camp evacuation. My self and another adult got him to a near-by ER (30 minute drive) and got in touch with his parents. After an hour they determined it was a bacterial infection and not meningitis. I call the medic and he was very relived.

The parents showed up, and the kid was very disappointed when told he would not be able to go back to camp!!

At the same time I was dealing with several perfectly healthy but homesick kids who were begging to go home!!

Every camping trip we forget something! We just don't know what until we get there!

We've forgotten lanterns, cooking equipment, the tarp for the dining fly, food items, sleeping bags, dish washing equipment, and lot's of other stuff.

And each time we have an opportunity for innovation! Rather than getting upset about it, we gather everyone together and think how we can solve the problem. It has led to some very creative thinking and problem solving.

Sometimes we've had to locate the nearest WalMart, but usually we can figure it out and come up with a home made solution that lets the Scouts know there's always more than one way to do something. And sometimes we just accept the reality with out whatever item we forgot - like darkness when we forgot all our high-powered propane lanterns - and discover it's not bad at all!

Thanks for the links moose! I've now read through the past posts and am glad to know that I am not alone in my confusion!

Is this all happening because the online Tour Permit at scouting.org was a bit confounding? Is that why they emphasize that the Tour Plan is "on standard 8.5 x 11-inch paper!"

I'd finally figured out the Scouting.org on-line Tour Permit and could crank out one in about 5 minutes. Now I guess I'll just add relevant info to the fillable pdf Tour Plan save a couple different versions, and will likely be able to get in the groove after a few months of getting up to speed.

What I'm still unclear on, even after reading all the relevant posts on this forum, and going through the official guidance a second & third time, is when and under what circumstances I need to file a Tour Plan, where to send it, and what I will ultimately end up with when I head out on the outing.

Again, what was wrong with the Tour Permit?

And why didn't National at least ask those out in the field who go camping every month of the year and file a Tour Permit for everyone of those outings??

This was certainly a top down action by National!!!

Have been on work travel quite a bit lately, so must have missed something, but our Council recently sent out guidance stating that the Tour Plan will replaces the Tour Permit as of 3/1/11.

From what I've read, the Tour Plan is only applicable for trips over 500 miles. So now what do we do for our usual monthly camping trips (always way under 500 miles) where we had submitted a Tour Permit in the past? Do we just submit nothing? I've requested a clarification from Council, but haven't heard anything back yet.

What was the problem with the Tour Permit anyway?

Can anyone shed light on this clear as mud change? Thanks!!

Several years ago at summer camp, I took the opportunity to discuss food safety as we prepared for the Friday foil dinner. I saw this a an excellent teachable moment that would last a lifetime.

After lunch, I gathered the Scouts together and explained the possible health risks associated with ground beef and how stay safe. I said that only I, the Scoutmaster, would handle the beef patties supplied by the camp, placing one on a foil square. The Scouts would then take the foil square, holding it only by the edges, over to a different table and add the onions, potatoes, carrots, and seasonings. This way the potential of contamination would be significantly reduced since they would not ever touch the meat. Everyone seemed to understand and went off to their afternoon merit badge classes.

Later in the afternoon, we built up the fire so as to have a good bed of coals, & had Scouts cut up the onions, potatoes, and onions. I carefully cut a pile of foil squares and set up the beef patties so everything was ready for the assembly line of foil dinners. We assigned an older Scout to flip the foil dinners in the fire pit and an adult to time each one.

At dinner time, I had everyone wash their hands, and again explained the process. Everyone lined up to receive their foil square with a beef patty, then moved on to table to add the veggies.

Things seemed to be going very well until I turned around and looked at the veggy table. Imagine my shock as I saw about six Scouts standing there kneading the vegetables into the hamburger, their hands covered with burger! I ask them what they were doing! They looked at me with all sincerity and said that the foil dinner would taste better this way!

I was absolutely floored! So my teachable moment on food safety became a lesson on through hand washing! It was also a lesson for me that teenagers are not little adults, but a different creature entirely - one that does not necessarily see things with the same logic we do!!

Happy New Everyone!!

I'm excited about 2011! It looks to be a great year - we have 3 winter camping trips, 4 camping trips with a 10+ mile hike, one with a 20 mile hike, an extended 6 day summer camping trip, and orienteering camping trip, of course summer camp, and hopefully we'll be back at the Chunk!

Cheers, and I hope all have an excellent year of Scouting!!

I do a SMC anytime a scout needs one, and the Committee conducts a BOR when there are enough Committee Members when the Scout is ready. It can be the same day, but not always. While I do not necessarily require a full Class A uniform for an SMC, the Committee always does for a BOR.

I agree with others who have said that a Patrol of 2 or more does just fine on a camping trip or other activity. This has proved much more successful than when we created a "camping patrol" composed of Scouts from different Patrols. If there is only one Scout, then he joins another Patrol with Scouts near his age.

I'll toss my story into the fire of this discussion...

We camped last June next to a mountain with a steep switchback trail to the top, the trail continued down a ridge, through a valley, and back to the campsite. It was eleven miles, and just what the guys taking hiking merit badge needed. Plus, the elevation change was more than 1000 feet, so the camping merit badge requirements would be satisfied too. Everyone was excited to get to the top as we started out after breakfast. We had all made lunches and were looking forward to eating our pb&j sandwiches on top looking back down on our camping site.

But it turned out to be a very hot day, and the Scouts struggled to get up the trail, pausing frequently in a shady spot to rest and have a drink of water. We reached a ridge about 2.5 miles up, and the guys collapsed under a tree. We told everyone to have a drink, and were floored when several said they had run out of water. We had talked extensively about bringing enough water, but still some Scouts only brought an old plastic coke bottle they had refilled with water.

It was clear to the adults, that despite the desire of many Scouts to go on, we had to turn back. Several of the Scouts who were prepared were frustrated and angry at those who did not think to bring enough water. Those who had run out were thirsty and felt pretty dumb. We had three adults, so it was clear that we could not split up. We told the Scouts to relax and have lunch. We spent ~45 minutes at this spot, sharing water, and calming down.

We let the Scouts discuss all possible options, but it soon became clear to all that we could not go on. Once everyone was in agreement, we headed down the mountain, stopping a couple times to share the last of our water. Once back at the campsite, we sat down and talked about the hike, and those who hadn't bothered to bring enough water got a good lesson in being prepared and the rest got a good lesson in assuming everyone was ok without checking.

What was key in this case was that it was not solely the adults making decisions, but the Scouts as well. Once the Scouts started discussing what to do next, the Scout Leaders quickly realized that they had to consider the group, not just how they felt or what they needed to do. This to me is real leadership, putting aside their own personal desire to consider what is best for the group.

We've been on three 10+ mile hikes since this experience, and everyone has brought enough water and had great experiences. The Scout Leaders have made it a point to check and make sure all going on the hike are fully prepared. They learned a hard lesson that could have been much harder if they had not considered the group instead of their own wants.

It seems like so many of the tragedies like the one described in the LA Times article involve an adult who has a great desire to get up the mountain or down the river or across the frozen lake, and likely sincerely believes that pushing the Scouts will build character. At some point however, that adult appears to forget that there are Scout Leaders who part of the group and are very able to significantly add to the decision making process.

1948

This kind of thing has to come from the Scouts. They need to buy into it and be part of the decision making.

Several years ago, we had a problem with Scouts using phones at Troop meetings. So, we discussed it at the Patrol Leaders Council meeting. The Scout Leaders considered various courses of action, and finally decided that no one needed to use a cell phone during a Troop meeting, camping trip, or at summer camp. They passed this information on to the Scouts the next Troop meeting and proceeded to enforce it with vigor.

It worked, and within a month cell phones were complete absent. It has now become part of our Troop culture, and while the Scouts may have the phone tucked away, they do not use then during a Troop activity.

I am confident that this worked as well as it did because the Scout Leaders, the SPL, ASPL, and Patrol Leaders, noticed the problem themselves, and then worked together to come up with a solution, and then implemented it. It works much better for the SPL and other Scout Leaders to have it be their rule and then tell the other Scouts that this is the rule and that's that - put it away or loose it.

As Scoutmaster, I interface with the parents and let them know that this is the Troop rule, but it's the Scouts that own it.

Yep, I got the email - two different versions 4 times!!

All I can say, is whatever happened to, "A Scout is Thrifty"????

If indeed the email is accurate and not a fraud, big deal, so what?? Who cares if you get a bottle of dirt now or when you and your Troop visits the site sometime in the next twenty years? If at all!!! There are far more important things to spend our limited funds on than dirt!

Following on the discussion regarding the whipped cream skit, here is one that was refused at the last night campfire at summer camp. The SPL had to submit the skit, and the camp director refused to let the Troop perform it because it was too violent. The Scouts were disappointed and confused as they had been practicing all week and thought it was hilarious.

Many of you will likely recognize the "Firing Squad Skit" as I pull it directly from the "Scouting Trail" website:

Script:

(3 soldiers in a holding cell stage left. In walks the leader of the enemy.)

Leader: You have all been found guilty of spying. You will each be shot by firing squad.

(the firing squad enters stage right)

Leader: First prisoner, take your place!

(Prisoner #1 steps out from the others and stands straight and tall facing the firing squad)

Leader: Ready!

Leader: Aim!

Prisoner #1: HURRICANE!

(all the soldiers scurry for cover looking afraid. The prisoner runs offstage. When they realize there is no hurricane, the soldiers line up again)

Leader: Next prisoner, take your place!

(Prisoner #2 steps out from the others and stands straight and tall facing the firing squad)

Leader: Ready!

Leader: Aim!

Prisoner #1: TIDAL WAVE!

(all the soldiers scurry for cover looking afraid. The prisoner runs offstage. When they realize there is no tidal wave, the soldiers line up again)

Leader: Next prisoner, take your place!

(Prisoner #3 steps out from the others and stands straight and tall facing the firing squad)

Leader: Ready!

Leader: Aim!

Prisoner #1: FIRE!

(the prisoner falls, being shot by the solders)

I appreciate your replies - especially those dealing with the underlining problems that may significantly contribute to drowsy driving.

I'm open to any other ideas on ways to stay awake... especially when you really don't have the option to pull over and nap. When I have 6 Scouts in my vehicle and I'm pulling the trailer with all the Troop equipment a quick 8 hour nap may be what my body needs, but does not fit in the activity schedule!

Not something I recommend... but I tell Scout that I have a dream catcher hanging off my rear view mirror so I won't have bad dreams if I go to sleep while driving...

But, seriously, those of us adults in the Troop who go on most of the camping trip are finding that feeling sleepy during the 2-3 hour Friday evening drive to a camping site is becoming an increasing problem. Perchance age related?

We deal with it by drinking coffee - or more likely one of the many energy drinks that are so prominently displayed at the check-out counter of a convenience store. I tend toward the 5-Hour kind of small bottle stuff that tastes terrible but seems to work. But then we are all wide awake after getting camp set up and putting the Scouts to bed!

Per this recent article, drowsy driving is a significant problem: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/08/AR2010110806349_pf.html

Do others have this problem? How do you deal with it?

We also camp every month except December. Most of these are weekend camping trips, leaving on Friday evening & returning in time for Church on Sunday. And of course we spend a week at summer camp in July.

Over the past couple years we have started doing extended summertime camping trips in June and August. In June we leave on Friday evening and return late on Monday. In August we leave on Friday morning and return late on Wednesday. This allows us to go farther away and really explore our surrounding. We also work on merit badges such as Camping and Hiking that require specific outdoor activities. These have become very popular and surprisingly well attended. We leave camp for a nearby town on Sunday morning for Church and then stop by a grocery store to buy food for the rest of the camping trip. This requires that the Scouts to do careful menu planing and shopping by Patrol within a specific budget.

tagguy -

We've been to both, and my advice is to head north! How about Rodney on the Chesapeake Bay? Or Camp Spencer in the Broad Creek Scout Reservation? There are a number of excellent camps in the mountains southern PA that are much cooler that those in southern VA!

Gary_Miller

This is the Boy Scouts of America not the Baby Sitters of America! This Scout sounds like he needs babysitting! But he is not a baby, he is a Scout! And as a Scout, the most helpful, friendly, courteous, and kind thing the Adult Leaders can do for him and the rest of the Scouts in the Troop is to enforce the Scout Law consistently.

As to the particular elements of the Scout Law being violated by a boy who feels its ok to throw a tantrum every time he does not get his way

Is he Trustworthy? No. Neither the Troop Leaders nor the other Scouts can trust him or depend on him not to have an episode during a Scout activity. This has got to be both embarrassing and distracting for the other Scouts.

Is he Loyal? No. By acting in such a selfish way he is not being true to his Troop or fellow Scouts.

Is he Helpful? No. It appears he does not care about other people.

Is he Friendly? Maybe, but not during a temper tantrum when those around him a try to rein him in.

Is throwing a temper tantrum Courteous? Absolutely not. It is not polite nor is it good manners.

Is it Kind to repeatedly subject your father, Adult Leaders, and Scouts to temper tantrums. No. And its time he learned it.

Is he Obedient? Not at all.

Is throwing a temper tantrum Cheerful? How could it be? In no way is he looking on the bright side of life! He clearly does not cheerfully do tasks that come his way.

Repeated temper tantrums are not Thrifty, Brave, Clean, or Reverent.

Its time this young man learned that he is in the Boy Scouts of America, not the Baby Sitters of America!

Now it may be that this young man has a condition that does not allow him choice in how he reacts when disappointment hits. If that's the case, then he need professional help to deal with his issues. Either way, his temper tantrums do not belong in the Troop.

No matter what diagnosis is eventually rendered upon this young man, the best thing the Troop can do is to establish a code of conduct based on the Scout Law and then consistently enforce that code.

As others have said, this should involve a meeting with the Scout and his parents to very clearly and neutrally let him know what is acceptable behavior and what is not acceptable behavior and consequences of stepping over the line.

Based on my experience with a similar Scout, I suggest the consequences of unacceptable behavior be an immediate removal from that particular activity, and suspension from the next activity.

It is critical that both this Scout and the other Scouts who witness the tantrums understand that Scouting is a not a right, but a privilege, one that requires we all adhere to the Scout Law.

If this Scout can learn that there are significant consequences to his behavior, and he thereby learns to control his behavior, he will be far better off for the rest of his life. Not only will be a better Scout, but he will set a good example for the rest of the Scouts in the Troop.

If on the other hand he is unable to change his behavior, then he may need significant help, and Scouting may not be the best place for him at this point in his life.

I say all this having experienced both enforcing the Scout Law and the opposite. I can tell you from experience that both the Scout who steps outside the Scout Law, and the Scouts who witness the infraction, fare far better when the code is enforced.

Best of luck on this one Sharky1998... let us know how this develops.

Several years ago we were doing hamburger foil dinners on a Troop camping trip. I first had a discussion with the Scouts on food safety, the dangers of ground beef when we did not have adequate hand washing facilities, and how therefore I would be the only one handling the ground beef.

As the fire burned, they chopped onions, carrots, & potatoes. We put all the ingredients on a picnic table for easy assembly. I was at another table with all the hamburger and a pile of pre-cut squares of foil. The Scouts formed a line, I put a heap of hamburger on the foil, and the Scout carried the foil over to the table where he could add the other materials, seasonings, and then seal it and take it to the fire. Everything was planned to ensure there would be no contamination.

I turned around after several Scouts had taken their hamburger and was shocked to see they were all kneading the potatoes, onions and carrots into the hamburger! Not what they were supposed to be doing! Their hands were covered with hamburger! I asked them if they had any recollection of the food safety talk I had given earlier in the day. They all said they remembered it well, but "foil dinners are better this way!"

Our feeder Pack does their AOL ceremony in conjunction with the Crossover ceremony for the entire Pack and all Cub parents. It is done in late April after a joint Webelos/Scout camping trip where each of the five Patrols creates sets up a Scout skills & games station for the Webelos and their parents. It has worked out very well, and the Cubs look forward to their time to go on the camp out and then earn AOL and cross over to the Troop.

I've seen Hennessy Hammocks in action, and they are very cool. I have several ENO hammocks which are the most comfortable I've ever used. But, if I ever win the lottery... this is what I'd get: http://www.junglehammock.com/. I've never seen a Clark in action, but from the website description and reviews, they look like all you'd need anywhere anytime - especially in cold weather!!

There are four of us adult leaders in the Boy Scout Troop who also have daughters in the Girl Scout Troop. The girls all want to be Boy Scouts, so we do very similar camping trips. Turns out girls like to play with fire and knives just like boys! However, they are not so much into chopping wood, and, as we have discovered, do not like Patrol cooking - they much prefer that we all (adults and girls) cook and eat together. And of course the boys do not sit around the fire and brush each others hair! The girls can hike and camp and do just fine camping like the Boy Scouts. If you take the boy there, take the girls too!