SMT224

FScouter, I understand what you are saying, and we usually do our own program -- primarily because there is so little notice of upcoming events. My preference is to do more than attend by helping staff, setup, or cleanup.

Senator Bernie Sanders, Independent from Vermont speaks to these issues... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcLWDGb0RqA

Just got an email from the District on an April event... first time it has been announced. Unfortunately this is the MO of our District, scheduling events a month or two out. I like to support the District, and try to go on as many events as possible, but I do not understand why they can't give us a bit more notice! Our Troop Schedules the next calendar year in September. We go camping every month of the year, do several service projects, and put out a calendar in January so everyone knows whats happening when. A number of state and national parks we go fill up quickly and require on-line reservations to be made as up to a year in advance. As much as I'd like to go on this April event, we've had something scheduled since last September, and we are not about to change what the Troop has already decided on. Same went for the Klondike - no word until early January, then they expect us all to drop everything and join in! In some past years there was no Klondike. If they gave us 6 months or more, we'd work it into our Troop schedule and join in, but a month notice? Sorry we're already doing something. Is this typical? Or do other Districts do a better job planning?

Everything below is a recent (3/4/11) post at the Forbes Magazine website. Link to the original article is at the very end. Gov. Scott Walker Has Lost The War Rick Ungar THE POLICY PAGE Mar. 4 2011 - 2:46 pm In what may be the result of one of the great political miscalculations of our time, Scott Walkers popularity in his home state is fast going down the tubes. A Rasmussen poll out today reveals that almost 60% of likely Wisconsin voters now disapprove of their aggressive governors performance, with 48% strongly disapproving. While these numbers are clearly indicators of a strategy gone horribly wrong, there are some additional findings in the poll that I suspect deserve even greater attention. It turns out that the states public school teachers are very popular with their fellow Badgers. With 77% of those polled holding a high opinion of their educators, it is not particularly surprising that only 32% among households with children in the public school system approve of the governors performance. Sixty-seven percent (67%) disapprove, including 54% who strongly disapprove. Can anyone imagine a politician succeeding with numbers like this among people who have kids? These numbers should be of great concern not only to Governor Walker but to governors everywhere who were planning to follow down the path of war with state employee unions. You cant take on the state worker unions without taking on the teachers and the teachers are more popular than Gov. Walker and his cohorts appear to realize. The data should also weigh heavily on the minds of each and every Republican gearing up to run for president in 2012 as the actions of Governor Walker, Kasich and anyone else planning to enter this fight are bringing Christmas to the Obama re-election campaign as they return rank and file union members to where they once lived - the Democratic Party. The defection of union members to the Republican Party has been an important part of the electoral math for successful GOP candidates for many years now and a real thorn in the side for the democrats. Consider the re-election campaign of President George W. Bush where success came down to winning the vote in Northeastern Ohio. Im from Northeastern Ohio. I can tell you without hesitation that union flows through the blood of these people who spent so much of their lives in the steel mills (before they closed up) and are reminded each and every day of how well their union looked out for them. While a number of these people are retired and living on their pensions provided by their collective bargaining agreement, their kids many of whom do not hold union jobs- remain very appreciative of what the unions did for mom and dad. While this appreciation may not have prevented these people from siding politically with the social philosophy of George W. Bush as they did- had Bush taken on the unions in his re-election bid, the outcome would likely have been very different. These strong, emotional attachments to the unions persist in many of the rust belt states where so many key presidential battlegrounds can be found. While Governor Walker may yet succeed in getting his budget repair bill through the legislative process and accomplish his goal of reducing collective bargaining to a shell of its former self, the larger battle appears to already be lost. And while Walker still in the earliest stages of his term-may be able to recover over the next three and a half years, from a national perspective, I dont know that Walkers future makes any difference at all. The damage has already been done. Should Gov. Walker accomplish his goal, he will have stoked a level of union anger that I very much suspect will become a key driver in an Obama victory in 2012. He will also have prompted the nations unions to work together for a common objective a feat that would have seemed impossible just one month ago. If Walker loses his fight, he will have reminded the unions of the importance of fighting back against their enemies, reminding them of how life was for their forbearers who fought to establish the modern union movement. This will ignite the passion for battle while reminding those union folks who have been voting republican of the importance of sticking with the party that sticks with them. Walker would have done well to take yes for an answer when the unions agreed to his financial proposals. Given the procedural advantages in Ohio, where the GOP legislators could push through the anti-collective bargaining bill without the need for Democratic legislators, Walker should have backed down and allowed John Kasich to take the lead in the effort. The Wisconsin governors desire to be at the forefront of his perceived GOP revolution may not only have doomed the anti-union effort, but it may forever label him as the man who gave the democrats the gift that keeps on giving the return of the union rank and file into the arms of the Democratic Party. http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/03/04/gov-scott-walker-has-lost-the-war/

As the OP on this post, I want to report on my experience with the Tour Plan... I downloaded the fill-able pdf Tour Plan, filled it out on my computer with general information & saved it, then added the specific information for our March camping trip and printed it. I took it to the Troop meeting and had the CC sign it. I signed it, and took it into to work the next day and faxed it to Council. I was amazed to find an email from Council when I got home that evening with a pdf attachment of the signed and stamped Tour Plan. I printed it out and now I'm ready for the camping trip. So I guess it works! Not as bad as I expected.

I agree Buffalo, but not at an ECOH... ;-)

Our Boy Scout Troop has a close relationship with the Cub Pack at our church. We supply several Den chiefs and visit Den and Pack meetings on a regular basis. We have annual early April camping trip with the Webelos just before Crossover (takes place at the end of April). It's a great way for the Webelos and families to get to know the Troop and visit with the Adult Leaders. We all do a service project on Saturday morning, cook a lunch for all back at the campsite, then have afternoon Scout games and skill building for the Webelos. Each Patrol in the Scout Troop sets up a station of activities, and the Webelos and parents break up into small groups and rotate around the stations. This gives the Webelos and their parents an idea of what the Troop is like and have a fun time. The Webelos I Den & parents usually do not spend the night and head home late in the afternoon. They get a good taste of the Troop and are usually very excited about joining next year. The second year Webelos camp out with their parents. They do their own cooking as a Webelos Den (usually with the Den Leader & Cubmaster), and join in with the Boy Scouts for the campfire program. Unless there's some scheduling conflict, we usually have 100% CrossOver, and the new Scouts then join us on our May and June camping trips and are all ready for summer camp in July. After several trials & errors, this seems to work very well. April weather is usually very nice, and we stay at a nearby park that allows both parents and Webelos to feel comfortable about camping out when they are not too far from home. We've found the camping trip followed very closely by the CrossOver works very well. For years we did a joint fall camping trip, but by the time the springtime Crossover happened (sometimes in February at B&G, sometimes in March) many of the boys had moved on to other activities and did not end up crossing over.

jamist649 - I can understand how you feel on this. I'm a SM of a Troop that gets an annual crossover class from the Pack in our church. Rarely do Cubs cross to another Troop. Not all the Cubs join, some drop out or decide they don't want to be Scouts, but most join our Troop. We have a late April crossover ceremony that is become very institutionalized in both the Pack and Troop. The Troop has at least 2 Den Chiefs at the Pack at all times. I visit with the Webelos II parents and Cubs throughout the spring talking to them about the Troop and summer camp. We have a joint Webelos / Troop camping trip in early April to introduce the Cubs & parents to the Troop. Despite years of great relations, a while back one parent decided our Troop wasn't good enough for his son, and proceeded to enumerate in great detail all the problems he saw in the Troop. I discussed his issues with him and the other parents, but he was steadfast that he could find a better Troop. Nevertheless, we convinced him to let his son crossover with all his friends and "try" the Troop. Big mistake. We should have just let him go. He found fault in everything and really wanted it to be an Adult run Webelos III. He couldn't believe we let the boys make so many decisions and make all kinds of mistakes. They left after a couple months and we were all happy to see them go. Last I heard, they still hadn't found the Troop they wanted, as all the other Troops had "big problems" as well. As others here have posted, let the Cub parents know how much the Troop does for the Pack, and invite the Troop Leaders to events to describe what they do and how much fun they have. Have positive responses to all the negatives the problem parent brings up. I'd let her without burning any bridges... wish them the best of luck. They may discover the grass really isn't greener on the other side, and want to come back.

shortridge... clearly there are Troops that do not want an FOS presentation at an ECOH. So be it. For me, an FOS presentation at an event the Troop feels comfortable about isn't a problem if Troop families have the disposable income to support FOS as well as Troop activities and everything else. If on the other hand, as in out Troop, the there are an abundance of families that can barely pay registration fees, dues, and camping food costs, let alone summer camp... then FOS is never appropriate. How could it be? Context is everything.

Fill a tin can with water and freeze. Draw a simple pattern on the can. Use a nail and hammer to put holes in the can following the pattern. The ice keeps the can from denting or collapsing. Let the ice melt, dry the can, add a little candle, and you have a nice gift for mom. In a dark room the nail-hole pattern will shine on a wall. Great to do a heart or similar. allangr1024 - for fire building I highly recommend a nest made from Sisal rope fibers and some burnt cotton cloth. The cloth catches sparks and spreads flames into the Sisal very quickly. Use an Altoids or similar metal candy tin to burn the cloth and then hold the cloth, sparker, and a Sisal nest.

Just back from winter camping trip with my daughters Girl Scout Troop. As an SM & GS Leader, I try to work on Scout skills when even I'm out with the girls. This time it was fire building. I taught them how to make a nice little nest out of Sisile rope, add some burnt cloth, and then fire sparks in. They learned quickly to carefully blow on the burnt cloth until the Sisile caught and they were holding a burning nest. We went through basic fire building, and all the girls were able to collect tinder and kindling, layout a fire, and then light it with a burning nest. We were at a Boy Scout camp, so there were plenty camping sites and fire pits, so lots of places to practice. Eventually we wandered over to the camp lake that had been drained for the winter. The girls sat on the dock and continued to make nests and discovered they could drop the flaming nests down on to the mud & ice below and they'd keep burning for a while. Like boys, the girls really liked doing this, and became quite skilled. There was a Boy Scout Troop at the camping as well, and eventually a group of boys wandered down to the lake... attracted by the fire or girls, I'm not sure! After wandering around the empty lake bottom, throwing ice at each other, and generally acting like idiots, they ended up on the dock watching the girls make fire. One of the boys finally stepped forward and admitted they'd never made fire like that and they had now idea how the girls were doing it. So the girls were more than happy to teach the Boys Scouts how to make the nest, add the burnt cloth, and set it aflame with sparks. It wasn't long before the boys & girls were down in the lake bottom making little fires. Then one of the Boy Scouts found some cat tails and they all discovered how very flammable these can be with merely a spark. It was boys and girls having fun with fire. The other GS Leader & I sat on the dock and watched all this, and I had no worries about the fire spreading with all the snow, ice, and mud. But I was a bit floored to look up and see two Boy Scout leaders standing on the other side of the lake, arms folded, watching. They didn't say a thing, just stared. I suddenly became keenly aware of how many BS/GS rules we were breaking with no designated fire pit, etc... About that time we were completely out of fire starting materials, so the other Leader and I decided it was time to go, so the girls left the boys at the lake and headed back to our side of camp. The girls had a great time and thought it was so funny that they were teaching Boy Scouts how to build fires! I have no idea what the BS Leaders were thinking but the boys had a great time, and learned a new Scout skill!

Instead of trying to change the current SM, step up and become the camping Assistant Scoutmaster. Work with the Patrol Leader Council (PLC) to plan several camping trips, then work with the Scouts to do the outing. All you need is one other trained leader to join with you. Our Troop goes camping every month of the year and spends 3 out of our 4 monthly Troop meetings focused on the outing. The Scouts love it, and spend a full meeting planning the menu and cooking equipment (they pool their $$ and do their own shopping), another full meeting checking tents and getting all the equipment ready, and then the meeting after the camping trip discussing what went right & wrong on the trip and what to do different next time. The Scouts do 90% of this!! So let the SM relax and do what he can to support the Troop while you and the Scouts plan and execute the outings!

This sounds like the Troop I joined 12 years ago... the Committee did most everything from planning all the camping trips to appointing the SPL. There was no Patrol Leaders Council, no Patrols, declining membership, and few outings. The Committee was composed of guys that had grown up in the Troop and that's just the way things were done. When I was appointed Scoutmaster a few years later, I slowly started making changes to the Troop based on what I learned at Scoutmaster training and Round Table. It took a while, but now things almost completely Scout-run with a very active PLC, good Scout Leadership structure, outings every month of the year, and three times the number of Scouts. While the Committee definitely resisted my changes, I was surprised that the Scouts were so used to the way things were in the Troop that they had a hard time changing as well. It took several generations of Scouts to really develop a group of Scouts that were able and willing to take on Troop Leadership and all that goes with it. It took having the PLC and Scout Leadership to become ingrained in the culture of the Troop. The SPL installation you describe sounds like things I watched and found very uncomfortable. But if that's the status quo don't think you can change it by logic or persuasive argument - you will be resisted by all involved who are happy with the way things are. Instead, work to get an active PLC going - if it does not already exist - and plant the seeds of change there. Let the Scouts make the changes from within and slowly the Committee will join in. You are changing the culture of a Troop, and that is no easy task!!

I really hate to let this discussion fade into the sunset without some additional info from E61 as to why the winter camping trip was canceled. I guess this is high on my priority list as I've been working on three Boy Scout cold weather camping trips and one for my daughter's Girl Scout Troop. Winter camping trips do require a heightened awareness as to conditions and participant readiness. So, E61, if you could be persuaded to pull yourself back to this campfire and toss on another log, I for one would appreciate it. This is not to judge you or your Troop, but to help me (and all the folks watching at home) better understand what may prompt a Troop to cancel a winter camping trip.

No doubt the DE is under a lot of pressure to get out and talk to all units. For him (her?) this simply an opportunity to reach a bunch of folks. But as others here have posted, an FOS presentation at an Eagle COH is wrong. It's too bad the DE does not have enough sense to understand that. Abel Magwitch - I know it will be hard, but you have to call the DE and state in very clear terms that there will be no FOS presentation at this Eagle COH. If you do not, the DE will be compelled to take full advantage of the situation. An Eagle COH 100% about the Eagle - nothing else. Under great pressure from the district a few years ago we succumbed to an FOS presentation at our Troop Anniversary party. Our Troop is borderline urban/suburban with a lot of low income families that can barely pay the registration fee, let alone summer camp, and certainly not and FOS contribution. It was uncomfortable as the stock FOS presentation seemed to be aimed at those with a disposable income that needs a place to go -- something no one in our Troop has. We all decided that's it, never again.

We have an annual April camping trip with both Webelos I & II at a nearby park. This happens just before the Crossover (end of April). It's a great way for the Webelos and families to get to know the Troop and visit with the Adult Leaders. We do a service project on Saturday morning, lunch for all back at the campsite, then an afternoon of Scout games and skill building for the Webelos. Each Patrol in the Scout Troop sets up a station of activities, and the Webelos and parents break up into small groups and rotate around the stations. The first year Webelos get a idea of what the Troop is like and have a great time. They usually do not spend the night and head home with their parents late in the afternoon. They get a good taste of the Troop and are usually very excited about joining next year. The second year Webelos camp out with their parents. They do their own cooking as a Webelos Den, but join in with the Boy Scouts later for the campfire program. Unless there's some scheduling conflict, we usually have 100% CrossOver, and the new Scouts then join us on our May and June camping trips and summer camp in July. After several trials & errors, this seems to work very well. April weather is usually very nice, and the proximity allows both parents and Webelos to feel comfortable about camping out. We've found the camping trip followed very closely by the CrossOver works very well. For years we did a joint fall camping trip, but by the time the springtime Crossover happened (sometimes in February at B&G, sometimes in March) many of the boys had moved on to other activities and did not end up crossing over.

Dues are $5/month except for July & December. Scouts must be current with dues to go on a camping trip, so this is a strong impetus to bring in their dues.

I agree with Speedy's DAD 100% - any leader needs to access how well prepared his people are before going into a potentially dangerous situation. This is a critical part of leadership training Scouting provides. It's important to have the Scouts part of any decision making that involves the cancellation of any activity. Training for a winter camping trip provides a Scout with skills for dealing with any cold weather he may come across later in his life. Almost no matter where he may find himself in this fine country, an extreme winter storm is possible. By understanding and experiencing winter camping, he will have a much better idea of how to deal with cold than someone who has never been out for a night in the winter. Yes, they may get cold on a winter camping trip, and thereby personally understand that two pair of cotton socks really does not equal a pair of wool socks. Or that jeans really can be miserable to wear in cold and damp weather. We can tell the Scouts all kinds of things, but until they're out and experiencing things for themselves, they really do not fully understand. To me this is one of the best things about Scouting - to gain those life-long skills with small failures that can build a foundation to avoid a catastrophic failure later in life. And here's where my concerns on canceling comes in... do we cancel because we're afraid they might get cold? Or that they might be seriously injured or even die? In the latter case, of course we cancel. But the gray area of the "overly cautious to avoid the uncomfortable" sends the wrong message and misses serious real-life learning opportunities.

Yes, yes, yes, we all have to be careful and ensure we don't take the Troop into a dangerous situation - rafting on too high water, hiking into a hot and dry area w/o enough water, driving into an ice storm, taking an unprepared bunch of boys winter camping. But, my experience with winter camping is that it is an incredible confidence builder for the prepared. We spend much of December & January working on what to wear, what to eat, how to sleep, and how to deal with cold weather first-aid issues. By the time we go camping in late January or early February, we have a bunch of prepared and eager boys who have a great time. Everyone is checked out by the adults & other Scouts before being allowed to go. Scouts who have never been winter camping before are always a bit scared of cold weather camping, and are always delighted to discover that they can do it. To discover that they can stay warm and have fun is wonderful to watch - now they know how great camping in winter can be, and they're hooked! My concern on the drift of this discussion is that the cancel can end up being the easy out and does nothing to build confidence... in fact quite the opposite. If a Troop schedules a winter camping trip, they need to take the time to ensure everyone in the Troop is well prepared and ready for the trip. If the trip is canceled because the Scouts are not ready, a valid question would be, why not? I hope the OP can pull his chair back up to this campfire and let us know what the conditions were (or situation) that prompted the cancellation.

"There is no such thing as bad weather... just poor clothing choices." How extreme was the weather? Why wasn't the Troop prepared? On what did the SM base the decision to cancel?

As the OP of this discussion, I'm still wondering about the online version of the soon to be defunct "Tour Permit". Did folks have specific problems with it? Is that part of the reason for the change? In the "Tour Plan" FAQs, there is a statement that the new and better "Tour Plan" will be on "standard 8.5 x 11-inch paper" as if this is a major benefit. Why? Or is it really that signatures will be on the Tour Plan? Something that could not happen with the electronically submitted Tour Permit. Or will the Tour Plan become electronic?

Let the PLC do the banning, not the adult leaders! We had a problem with cell phones and over use a meetings and camping trips. We discussed in the PLC meetings, and they took a far more stringent action than we would have, and it was soundly implemented, accepted, and is now part of the Troop culture. Far better that such rules come from the Scouts than at the Scouts from above.

We have only gone to summer camps with canvas tents on platforms & cots. I think it's great and adds to the summer camp experience. We camp every month for the rest of the year in Troop dome tents that the Scouts set up, sleep in, and pack up. It makes it summer camp to be in a canvas platform tent and gives us a nice change from setting up our own tents. To me, and to the Scouts in the Troop, the canvas tent is summer camp. It's an integral part of the entire experience, along with the chaos of the dining hall, merit badges, and being a uniformed Scout with 450 others. If the camp we are currently attending (not our Council camp) were to do away with canvas platform tents, we'd find another camp.

Day time: Class B - Troop t-shirt or similar with Scout-like shorts. Evening (before dinner): Class A - Tan Scout shirt with Scout-like shorts. Evening activities (after dinner): class B with Scout-like shorts

Well, the April "Tour Permit" I submitted was approved via myscouting.org... Maybe I should do March & May & June...